Diesel TMD's

[Mr chapman]

Hello I'm looking at modelling a TMD but the truth is I know very little about how they work. What's actually in a modest size TMD? I know there's obviously a shed and fuel point. A wash plant... Somewhere for the crews to wait for their next turn. What else? Is there a specific order these things are visited? For example enter, to fuel point, to wash point, to shed? Forgive my ignorance here. Before I start a model I think its a good idea to find out how the prototype works rather than just wing it. It should help to make a better model. 

['CHARD]

Your post raises a good many questions - here are a few that came to mind immediately.

 

Are we talking just locomotives here, or locos and MUs?  Many TMDs that only looked after locos didn't have wash plants, as only coaching stock utilised these facilities.  

 

Maintenance depots do more invasive work than servicing locations.  Hence their level of facilities and amenities for locos and staff are interdependent.  Do you have any prototype locations in mind, then we can point you in a decent direction regarding what facilities were present there.

 

Western Region hydraulic depots were somewhat different from DE depots elsewhere.  Steam sheds converted/ adapted to handle diesel traction make very rich and modellable subjects.

 

How much space have you to play with?

 

What era are you keen on?  Many enthusiastic modellers of the present scene tend to plonk 'TMD' type facilities where the real railway would stable a loco in the middle of nowhere and take a man to it in a van.

[Baby Deltic]

The Irwell Press did an excellent book called 'Diesel Depots - The Early Years' which gave details and had plans of the early modernisation MPD's of the late 50s and early 60s. The book is rare now, but can still be hunted down, although it can be expensive. The 'Diesels On Shed' series of books can still be found at book stalls, as can 'BR Motive Power Depots' a book giving details of all MPD's and Sheds on BR in the 1970s/80s.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Baby Deltic

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Mr Chapman

 

I have built a few diesel depots in the past, Hanging Hill  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61979-hanging-hill/ and Pig Lane http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62823-pig-lane-or-should-it-be-i-am-sorry/. Sitting in my manshed at present is http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67810-brisbane-roada-new-pig-lane/ I hope these are helpful.

 

 

Hello I'm looking at modelling a TMD but the truth is I know very little about how they work. What's actually in a modest size TMD? I know there's obviously a shed and fuel point. A wash plant... Somewhere for the crews to wait for their next turn. What else? Is there a specific order these things are visited? For example enter, to fuel point, to wash point, to shed? Forgive my ignorance here. Before I start a model I think its a good idea to find out how the prototype works rather than just wing it. It should help to make a better model. 

You seem to have the basics already. Depending on the size of depot, the region and time period you intend to model will dictate if you have a fuel point or a servicing shed (where the fuelling takes place). This is where most the work at all depots is done, not only are locos refuelled but things like the sand boxes refilled, the train heating boiler tanks replenished. At some locations A and B exams are done at fuel point or in the servicing shed. Locos entering a depot do so for a reason and that is normally to be refuelled. Even if they are due an exam or repair they are normally refuelled first. Unless the loco requires a repair or a higher level of examination then it will be placed on a siding to wait for its next duty when it is released from the fuel point. If your depot is large enough to have repair facilities then a loco requiring repair will trundle off to the shed. In loco sheds the roads dedicated to either repairs, or high level exams.

 

Some locations have a washing machine and the WR even had underframe washing pits, where the bogies etc. were washed down. These would be located either before the servicing area of just after it. Two reasons, first they look better clean when seen by the travelling public and second the fitters like to work on a clean loco should it need repairing.

 

Something to remember when building a depot, the fuel storage tanks need to be able to hold more fuel than the tanker train which brings the fuel to the depot, too often I see depots where the volume of fuel being delivered would overflow the tanks provided for storage.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Clive Mortimore

[Mr chapman]

Hmmm... I'm not sure on space right now. I'll see what's what then trim away things I cant fit in. I'm looking at something in southern territory circa 1980ish. Possibly with space to stable multiple units. You know the drill... 33's, 47's an 08 ect. Its not something I've really looked at before. I don't think I'll get much more than a four road shed in so nothing super sized. 

 

Edit: Sorry CM, I missed your post whilst typing. That's very helpful. I think the maximum width would be 18" as a shelf layout. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by Mr chapman

[JeffP]

Depending on what you can fit in, a diesel depot might be simply an outside fueling point, no buildings other than for crew, but fuel tanks somewhere.

It might be a covered fueling point, search Westbury, Kings Lynn, it might be a maintenance shed, look at Ebbw junction and Frodingham for examples of open ended and closed sheds.

 

It might have a fueling/maintenance point with a larger, higher heavy maintenance shed, search Landore, Stratford, Tinsley.

 

Landore is an excellent design, if you Google earth "Landore" you'll see it, you can zoom into the track design, and using Bing Mapping allows a bird's eye view instead of the satelleite view.

[ElectroSoldier]

I dont have any direct experience of southern depots but.

Buxton had a rather modessided TMD, there was no building for it in its on right, the crews used the facilities on the station, which was opposite over the runnig linse into the station, there was a fueling point, stabling roads and that was about it really, even when it was busy in the 80s there was a lot there but there wasnt much there at the same time.

 

Then on the other hand you have Allerton TMD, which can still be seen on google maps, the facility has changed many times over the years so you could model it how you want and Allerton is a pretty good middle ground, there was a largih train shed for maintenance (was always full of 08s, 47s, 37s, 31s, 33s you name it they were there.

There was a washing line but I cant remember there being a fueling point.

 

Allerton was also interesting because there was always a couple of brake vans there (one in Merseyrail yellow with  grey stripe livery) one in old LNWR or LMS colours, I cant remember which, I know the letters could just about be seen even into the late 90s that was there. used when they took an EMU off Merseyrail to the depot for maintenance.

 

So many TMDs and so many differences between them you really need to narrow it down, but to answer the OP there did seem to be an order of events when it first went into the depot, they always went in on the same line to stable while waiting for the deopt  crew to take over.

The same is true for Edge hill C.S these days when they take the Pendolinos in.

[Mr chapman]

Thanks I now have everything I need to begin planning. Cheers guys

[russ p]

Depot's tend to be more than dead end sidings, most have some kind of flow to them.

Have a look at my Cley on sea thread,I have arranged the depot so that locos arriving on the depot would be fueled on one of two roads then moved on for stabling or to enter the repair shed. Shunters have their own fuel point and units would have to leave in the direction they arrive. In an ideal world I would have liked enough space for the depot to have had entry and exit lines at opposite ends

[sub39h]

I dont have any direct experience of southern depots but.

Buxton had a rather modessided TMD, there was no building for it in its on right, the crews used the facilities on the station, which was opposite over the runnig linse into the station, there was a fueling point, stabling roads and that was about it really, even when it was busy in the 80s there was a lot there but there wasnt much there at the same time.

 

Then on the other hand you have Allerton TMD, which can still be seen on google maps, the facility has changed many times over the years so you could model it how you want and Allerton is a pretty good middle ground, there was a largih train shed for maintenance (was always full of 08s, 47s, 37s, 31s, 33s you name it they were there.

There was a washing line but I cant remember there being a fueling point.

Ipswich is like that too I think

[Grimleygrid]

As Baby Deltic has said, a book worth getting is Diesel Depots - The Early Years. I recently purchased a copy from Amazon for a reasonable price. I would thoroughly recommend getting a copy.

 

image by AP474, on Flickr

[bobster]

There are lots of books on Steam Depots, but very few on Diesel Depots - I would liked to have seen a follow up volume on depots in the 70s/80s etc up to today - A bit of a neglected subject.

 

Cheers, Bob.

[JeffP]

I have most of the books on steam depots with track plans, but no-one has ever done the same for diesel depots.

[Swindon 123]

I did draw a plan of Finsbury Park Depot from the time I worked on and off there in the early 80's. A bit big for what you have in mind, but the general principle applied there worked for other smaller depots I worked on to in later years. here's FP and a brief resume of how it worked.

 

 

Loco's arrived on depot via the inlet line onto either fuel roads A or B, depending on which was the emptier. Once fuelled they would be put into one of the shed roads for servicing unless it was a quick turnaround job and went straight back out or over to one of the holding sidings 7-11. If destined for the shed a loco would be put in one of the roads depending on a number of factors. For minor repairs such as windscreen wiper or washer bottles, boiler fault and the like then a loco was usually put on 6 road as it was the easiest to get locos on or off. If 6 was full then 5 road was often used, although locos with more complicated defects or due "A" exams usually ended up there. 3 & 4 roads where used for locos with more major exams such as "B" exams or major repairs/brakeblock changes and the like. Use of these 3 roads (3-5) where carefully planned as getting locos off there back into use required at least one of the fuelling roads to shunt onto. 1 & 2 roads where reserved for major exams or repairs to the depots loco allocation, such as "C" exams or in the case of FP, repaint of its Deltic fleet. I even saw the depots steam crane in 1 road once for a boiler washout.

When declared fit for use a loco was moved out onto one of the holding sidings, numbered 7-11, unless taken for a job straight away. The holding sidings had a pecking order. FP's fleet of 31's was usually found on 7 road awaiting their next turn. 8 & 9 usually held the locos waiting to go out on mainline turns and would hold locos from many depots. 10 & 11 where usually the preserve of the mainline "castoffs", more often than not 40's & 46's. Not to say they didn't get used, but they where usually locos that had arrived in the early morning on an overnight train and , due to the lack of ETH, would be heading back north on another overnight service later in the evening. They where out there to keep out of the way.

 

Well that was how I remember the depot generally operated. Not all depots worked the same and in my career I found it varied from region to region in some aspects.

 

Paul J.

[rob D2]

Interesting.

If a loco was filled and then heading for the holding sidings did it do a complex Z pattern or go 6, outlet and then back to the holding sidings.

 

The layout looks rather ' model railway ' in its complexity for shunting !

[Clive Mortimore]

Interesting.

If a loco was filled and then heading for the holding sidings did it do a complex Z pattern or go 6, outlet and then back to the holding sidings.

 

The layout looks rather ' model railway ' in its complexity for shunting !

Hi Rob

 

Have a look at this Pathe News film when the depot was opened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-aUth6g-w

[Mike Storey]

If you are talking only four roads on the Southern then you should really just model a stabling point, such as Dover, Gillingham (Kent), Faversham or the old Ashford, and not a TMD, such as Selhurst, Eastleigh, Tonbridge, Hither Green or Stewarts Lane, which were all multiple roads and were usually part of a larger depot complex. A stabling point does not have re-fuelling but does have a crew room and remote signing on point, normally as part of other buildings (Gillingham's was part of the station block) and probably a T&RS staff hut (depending on how far back we are talking) who would do any running repairs or partial A exams. Depends how much modeller's licence you want to use up, but less is more usually......

[Swindon 123]

Interesting.

If a loco was filled and then heading for the holding sidings did it do a complex Z pattern or go 6, outlet and then back to the holding sidings.

 

The layout looks rather ' model railway ' in its complexity for shunting !

Moving locos around FP was generally planned with almost military precision. There were 2 drivers and one, (sometimes 2), drivers assistants out at "The Park", 3 turns, 24 hours a day. One was the shunt driver and the other the "Engine Movements" driver. Both where "Green Card" men who booked on there. The latter had a Drivers Assistant who was a Kings Cross man and travelled to FP on a daily basis. The engine movements men where supposed to move the locos around, with the pilot driver manning the depot shunter along with a shunter (human variety). However the layout of the depot called for some careful planning when moving locos from the shed to the holding sidings, especially in getting them in the right order for there onward departure times. The FP 31 allocation on 7 road generally was a general user pool so it didn't matter what order they went in the road, but mainline locos on the other roads had to go in the right order to ensure you didn't "box one in". Movements from 6 road where simple and usually only required you to shunt up to the outlet and then onto the required road. Movements from 3-5 roads required diamond crossing part of one of the fuel road to be clear so that a loco would be shunted from the depot towards the fuelling road then onto 6 road, then reverse up to the outlet and then reverse again into the required road. Quite complicated and lots of getting up and down locos to change the points, although at that time, the rules not being so strictly applied, "back cab driving" was the norm, so not many cab changes. These moves could end up with both drivers and the assistant driving locos to a carefully planned script to get the locos in the right order in the right roads. The following photo taken from the fuelling point at FP will (hopefully) help understanding the above

Movements from 1 & 2 roads where even more involved and thankfully didn't happen a lot and where usually timed to happen when the depot was quiet and this involved at least one of the fuelling roads to be free of traffic so as to be able to get a loco over the pointwork of the scissors crossover and then to its respective holding siding, via 6 road.

The worst shift for moving locos was the morning one around 8-11 AM as all the locos from the overnight services started to arrive at the depot from their respective workings. I have seen locos queued almost back to the inlet point on a bad day. The fittest job at the depot was the "move down" man, usually the Drivers assistant, whose job was to move the locos down onto the fuel pumps as one became available as locos moved from there to the shed. As the inlet road had to be kept clear as possible this meant getting up onto each loco in turn to move them down a space, go to the next in line and do the same, and so on, and so on, and s......... You catch my drift!

It was considered to be a plum job for a KX secondman out on the "Engine Movement Clarence Yard" s it was an 8 hour turn + 1 hours travelling each way, so 10 hour days. Overtime!! Plus you where guaranteed to drive locos, anything that came on the depot to boot. Some times it was hard work and other times it could be quiet. It varied from day to day, but it was always great fun.

 

Paul J.

[Mr chapman]

Thanks guys. Its all very helpful

[Clive Mortimore]

I have most of the books on steam depots with track plans, but no-one has ever done the same for diesel depots.

Hi Jeff

 

Colin Marsden's book "BR Motive Power Depots, Western Region" (Ian Allan, ISBN 0-7110-1769-7) has track plans, some a very basic and the others not great in detail. It looked like there would be a series of these books but alas only the WR one saw the light of day.

[JeffP]

Thanks I'll look for it.

 

Perhaps there would be more interest now, most of them being derelict? Or just gone.

[rob D2]

Very interesting, swindon.

It's these insights that I really love.

 

Were locos allowed to be hot refulled ? IE engines running or was everything shut down

[Grimleygrid]

Very interesting Paul J, thanks for sharing.

 

I too am very interested in the operational side of a diesel depot and the respective movements on, off and around the shed.

 

Thanks again.

[Rivercider]

Here is a spotters view of Bath Road Depot in Bristol taken from Platform 12.

 

Most locos visitng the depot required fuel, and would go into the Daily Daily Shed which is in the 3 road shed in the middle of the shot.

A Xams would also be undertaken here, which if I recall correctly would take about an hour.

After fuel the locos would return to traffic or be shunted into the stabling roads on the left of the shot, behind the brake van.

 

 Locos booked for more extensive Xams from B upwards, which took more time, or for other repair, would go into the main shed on the right.

 

The tall shed on the left contained a crane with a higher lift and was, I think, called the Workshop, and here more extensive work was carried out,.

 

 

e

Bath Road Depot 15/1/82

 

cheers

[Swindon 123]

Very interesting, swindon.

It's these insights that I really love.

 

Were locos allowed to be hot refulled ? IE engines running or was everything shut down

I don't believe it was a requirement for the locos to be shut down when refueling, but I remember it was normal practice for you to leave them shut down on a fuel point. There is another topic, on Finsbury Park depot, buried within this section, that I have posted some of my memories of working on and off FP and as there appears to be some interest in them, I have reproduced some of that below, mainly to save time in copying out what I wrote before.

 

When I first started going out to FP, there was also a running foreman located in the traincrew cabin who you had to see for which loco was allocated to your turn. This was written out on "crib sheet" he had so that if he was absent for any reason you could find out what loco you had allocated. He used to also tell the "engine movements" crew what loco's where ready off servicing and what roads they had to be moved to, in liaison with the maintenance foreman in his office in the main shed. Later towards the end all of this was done by the one foreman in the main shed. Before it all disappeared I did manage to liberate some of the old "running foreman's crib sheets" for loco/turn allocation and have managed to recently find them and scan them for reproduction below.

8 Rlf (SX) 15.55 on. 15&7-04-80

The sheets date from 5th Jan 1981 onwards until I suspect that May when the timetable and therefore some of the diagrams would have changed. With regards to the sheets themselves most of the headings are self explanatory.

 

Loco Dia would show the diagram number and if including any letters they would indicate what depot the particular loco diagram was from. If there where no letters as on most of the Cl 31 diagrams then the loco diagram was for a FP loco.

 

Men - This told the running foreman what traincrew to expect for the allocated loco. If it was a number only then normally a KX traincrew was expected. Numbers below 200 where "mainline diagrams", anything over 200 was a "round the houses" ECS turn or the odd freight turn but could also involve mainline work sometimes. Any number that was letters only was a "foreign" traincrew, but a quick look thru has shown only Peterborough men came on shed for loco's. A number with an R behind it indicated a KX relief diagram and the eagle eyed amongst you will note that the same number can appear a couple of times in a day. These turns ferried loco's between KX and FP and return for servicing.

 

Class 31. M-F.

 

Class 31. SO.

 

Class 31. SuO.

 

Mainline. M-F.

 

Mainline. SO.

 

Mainline. SuO.

 

I also kept a lot of my notebooks from my days at Kings Cross which had some of the diagrams noted down in them. Some of the Relief diagrams, which involved ferrying locos between Kings cross and FP depot I have reproduced below to give you some idea of what went on in those days.

8 Rlf (SX), 15.55.on. 15&7-04-80.[/b

 

For a contrast. 8 Rlf (SO).[/b

 

9 Rlf (SX). 03-01-80.[/b

 

3 Rlf (SuO).

 

Hope they help you get and insight into the workings of a depot.

 

Paul J.