Westinghouse brakes - when and where?

[stewartingram]

With the recent release of the Hornby J15, we have a model produced in 2x variants for BR, and with the Westinghouse brake pump fitted or not.

I've never really thought about this before, even though the GER is "my" railway, and just accepted locos with them being fitted as "normal". I do remember the Liverpool St sound of N7's panting away though - sheer heaven!

In my simple mind, locos in general were either "fitted" or "unfitted", the terms referring to whether they could operate train brakes or not. Absence of pipes on the bufferbeams confirms unfitted.

(Obviously the loco was brake fitted, but this leads to another seperate question, did the driver have to operate 2 brakes to control the fitted train?).

In the late 50s/early 60s, my period of interest, train brakes were standardised as "Vacuum" brakes. All passenger trains were fitted; goods wagons were "Fitted" (bauxite livery) or "Unfitted" (grey livery). (And to complicate things, some bauxite wagons were unfitted but provided with a through brake pipe).

In the 60s, "Air" brakes became more common, eventually (after a period of dual fitting) passenger stock standardised on Air. Goods stock also went that way, eliminating Unfitted stock in the process.

Odd localised areas, and I nominate the GE area specifically, used "Westinghouse" brakes on their passenger stock. I believe this was because of the better performance, allowing slicker working with the commuter workings?

So getting more to the point, what was the rule concerning Westinghouse locos? I recall Sandringhams (B2/B17) around Cambridge with pumps, and also B12, D16 and J15 (possibly others), but I think with normal (Vacuum) coaches. N7's on Liv St commuters I can understand. So were these pump fitted locos universal, in that they could haul normal Vacuum coaches as well as Westinghouse? Could a shedmaster use his pump fitted J15 indiscriminately on any type of stock?

I'm guessing, (1) no brake pipes on loco = unfitted trains only. (2) brakes pipes, no pump = vacuum fitted trains. (3) brake pipes, pump fitted = any fitted (Vacuum or Westinghouse).

Confirmation would be welcome.

 

Stewart

 

Stewart

                   

[corneliuslundie]

Westinghouse and vacuum pipes were different, so if a loco could operate the brakes of both types there would need to be two lots of brake pipes (plus steam heat pipes in winter). I don't know if this happened but it would be possible to tell from photos. I think the Westinghouse pipes were thinner.

 

The Rhymney Railway used Westinghouse brakes and its locos certainly couldn't operate vacuum braked stock as there were GWR special notices about it from time to time.

 

Jonathan David

[The Stationmaster]

If you can find clear pics of the buffer beam area it is very easy to tell what fitting a loco has.  Three link coupling on the engine & tender is a sure sign that it has no train brakes at all (but I bet that not all unfitted engines had 3 link couplings?).  Fitted with a vacuum brake means a fairly chubby looking pipe which is usually 'ribbed' in appearance.  The Westinghouse pipe is much slimmer and was normally smooth in appearance although some Companies appear to have used a canvas (?) cover on the pipes - perhaps to prevent chafing?

 

The picture linked below very clearly shows the difference between a vacuum pipe (often called a vacuum bag by some railwaymen) on the right and the slimmer Westinghouse pipe on the left - note also that there is a valve on the metal stand leading to the Westinghouse flexible pipe

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GER_Class_L77#/media/File:LNER_Class_N7.jpg

 

Now a J15 showing the difference again - also with a steam heating pipe below the bufferbeam - again that is 'smooth'

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7984881213/

[PGC]

Westinghouse and vacuum pipes were different, so if a loco could operate the brakes of both types there would need to be two lots of brake pipes (plus steam heat pipes in winter). I don't know if this happened but it would be possible to tell from photos. I think the Westinghouse pipes were thinner.

 

The Rhymney Railway used Westinghouse brakes and its locos certainly couldn't operate vacuum braked stock as there were GWR special notices about it from time to time.

 

Jonathan David

 

It most certainly did happen, the ex GER E4 I have modelled (62785, the last one running, now preserved and in the attached photo) had three pipes, vacuum, westinghouse and steam heat. It's making fitting the front coupling a right b*gger, When building the loco, I put the hook in, the the pipes, painted it but now can't get the coupling itself in without some major surgery. My fault, I should have thought things through!

 

Phil

 

[Fat Controller]

When did twin air-pipes start to be fitted to UK rolling stock?

[The Bigbee Line]

When did twin air-pipes start to be fitted to UK rolling stock?

Were all scurrying for books now to test our theories.... 

 

SR EMU was always 'two piped'...

 

Maybe when air brakes were fitted to ordinary passenger stock, might be worth looking at some of the stock air braked in the 70s (I think).

 

Worth looking for early Freightliner pictures

[Steadfast]

I got told the other day that it was the introduction of Freightliner trains, running at higher speeds, that saw the introduction of the main reservoir pipe. Though this was a "word of mouth" reckoning from my instructor, so it sounds logical but may not be 100%.

When they were first fitted, did air brake pipes use the same fittings as today? It's difficult to tell in the photos but the connector looks familiar!

 

jo

[Pacific231G]

Does anyone know what the pros and cons of Westinghouse v. Vacuum brakes was. I can see advantages for Westinghouse but vacuum brakes must have had some as well. Cheaper installation on each wagon or coach perhaps?

[asmay2002]

Does anyone know what the pros and cons of Westinghouse v. Vacuum brakes was. I can see advantages for Westinghouse but vacuum brakes must have had some as well. Cheaper installation on each wagon or coach perhaps?

 

Back in the 19th century brake trials established that the air brake was the most effective.  However, vacuum brakes were marginally cheaper.

[Londontram]

The Caledonian was originally air braked and had to have vacuum brakes fitted in LMS days and for a period were duel fitted but the air braking system had been phased out by about 1930 the last pure air braked stock being the 45ft coaches which had all but gone by the early 1930s. some (very few) 45ft coaches and most of the later 57ft and 65ft stock were duel fitted

[roythebus]

If the stock was duel braked it should have been fitted with swords. Maybe dual braked, fitted with air and vac pipes??

 

Underground electric stock was I think air braked from the start with twin piped air brakes as compressors were fitted on intermediate cars, likewise with SR EMU stock. the air brake fittings are standard across the continent and probably the USA as well where the Westinghouse air brake was invented.

 

The driver of a loco only usually has to work one brake to operate the brake on the loco and the train, regardless of air/vac and steam brake on the loco.

 

One disadvantage of the Westinghouse brake is that you only get 3 applications before the auxiliary reservoirs fitted on each vehicle run out of air! To recharge these reservoirs take a bit of time, so working a train with straight Westinghouse take a bit of skill. The vacuum brake is a bit easier in that respect inasmuch as there is always vacuum instantly available to recharge the brake pipe. But then vac cylinders are far bigger than air brake tanks and valves.

 

The twin pipe air brake was introduce on BR when freightliners were introduced. The early AC electrics and diesels were vac brake with no train air brake, but air braked on the loco only. They were all retro fitted with twin pipe air brakes over a period of time.

[corneliuslundie]

I think one reason for the reticence of British railways to use the Westinghouse brake was the royalty payments.

 

Jonathan

[pH]

The Caledonian was originally air braked and had to have vacuum brakes fitted in LMS days and for a period were duel fitted but the air braking system had been phased out by about 1930 the last pure air braked stock being the 45ft coaches which had all but gone by the early 1930s. some (very few) 45ft coaches and most of the later 57ft and 65ft stock were duel fitted

Many Caledonian passenger engines kept their Westinghouse equipment till withdrawn. You can see the pump on the righthand side of engines in photos. The presence of working Westinghouse pumps was the reason the last three Caley Bogies were used on their last duties.

 

When the first Glasgow southside Blue Trains were introduced, the units were maintained at Hyndland on the northside lines. There was no electrified connection between the northside and southside lines, and units had to be hauled dead. The Blue Trains were air-braked. Initially, I believe, Westinghouse-fitted Caledonian 0-4-4Ts were used, but Scottish Region ran out of serviceable ones, so 54463/65/502 were sent to Polmadie for the work. They didn't last too long, as a couple of EE Type 1s were given air brakes to replace them (D8085/6 from memory, but don't quote me).

[AndyID]

There was a BR promo when the West Coast electrification reached Glasgow. You could buy a day return Glasgow to Euston for, I think, 5 pounds. My wife and decided to try it. I was going to attend a model railway exhibition while she did some shopping. When we got to Glasgow Central there was no train! There was a problem down the line somewhere and they could not get the stock in. However, they eventually found some MK1s and a Type 4 to haul it, and we set off to Carlisle on the old G&SWR line through Kilmarnock.

 

We eventually got to Carlisle hours late. They took off the Type 4 and wheeled up an Electric to whisk us on our way (hands up if you can see what's about to happen next) Yup. You guessed it - wrong brakes! More delay while they found something with vacuum brakes - can't remember what it was. I think it was electric but I can't be sure. I think I have a photo of the palaver at Carlisle somewhere. I'll post it if I come across it.

 

(I never made it to the show.)

[Edwin_m]

In the 60s, "Air" brakes became more common, eventually (after a period of dual fitting) passenger stock standardised on Air. Goods stock also went that way, eliminating Unfitted stock in the process.

My understanding is that very little rolling stock was dual fitted during this transition. 

 

From the Mk2a series (1967ish) onwards new hauled passenger stock was air-brake only and the locos that hauled it were retrofitted with dual brakes or in the case of Class 50 had them from new.  Some Mk1s, mostly catering, were converted to air brake to run with the newer stock.  At about the same time freight wagons started to be air-brake only, though some also had vacuum pipes so they could run unfitted in a vacuum-fitted train.  But few vehicles carried both types of brake equipment - these were mainly non-passenger carrying stock that could find itself in a passenger train or a parcels train. 

 

By the early 70s enough stock was air brake only for new loco classes to be similarly equipped, the first being classes 87 and 56.  Both vacuum and unfitted freight continued into the 1980s and vacuum brakes on passenger stock are just about still in existence on Network Rail today (the handful of heritage DMUs and I think some charter rakes). 

 

I believe also the air brakes fitted from the 1960s onwards were compatible with the traditional Westinghouse.  Electric multiple units always had air brakes with the exception of some very early types - presumably if you don't have steam on hand a compressor is just as easy to provide as a vacuum pump.  The air brake will always be more effective for a given size of equipment because air can be supplied at several atmospheres pressure but the working pressure difference of the vacuum brake can never exceed one atmosphere. 

[AberdeenBill]

A few air-braked Mk2 carriages were converted back to vacuum brakes to work with Mk1 rakes.   

 

I've think I've posted these pictures before:

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2635852

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2977060

 

but they highlight the interesting operational aspects of air/vacuum incompatibility in earlier days.  

 

Bill

[roythebus]

Stock fitted with single pipe and twin pipe can run together as can Westinghouse fitted stock and later air-braked stock. However, the handling of the Westinghouse and later stock is different, inasmuch as the train has to be treated as Westinghouse fitted with the 3 brake applications I mentioned above!

 

Later stock is fitted with distributors which recharge their auxiliary reservoirs a lot quicker than the Westinghouse with triple valves. It all gets rather complicated; I have the drawings about somewhere, but basically yes, the 2 systems are compatible. You either run the train as single or double pipe; the release times are quicker on the double pipe system.

[Pacific231G]

I think one reason for the reticence of British railways to use the Westinghouse brake was the royalty payments.

 

Jonathan

That makes sense though my interest was piqued by discovering that quite a few French metre gauge railways had used vacuum brakes- generally supplied by Westinghouse!!

I was slightly surprised by this as I'd always thought Westinghouse brakes to have been more or less universal outside Britain and British inspired railways. I assume though that one of the advantages of vacuum brakes in steam days was the relative simplicity of ejectors.compared with a Westinghouse pump.  

[Fat Controller]

That makes sense though my interest was piqued by discovering that quite a few French metre gauge railways had used vacuum brakes- generally supplied by Westinghouse!!

I was slightly surprised by this as I'd always thought Westinghouse brakes to have been more or less universal outside Britain and British inspired railways. I assume though that one of the advantages of vacuum brakes in steam days was the relative simplicity of ejectors.compared with a Westinghouse pump.  

Spain (and possibly Portugal) use (d?) vacuum brakes.

[billbedford]

When did twin air-pipes start to be fitted to UK rolling stock?

 

In special circumstances before WW1, see this drawing for instance.

[PGC]

As a slight diversion for the topic (but still relevant, I think!), I believe that vacuum brakes work by creating a vacuum to get the brakes off, so should the pipe break the vacuum is lost and the brakes are automatically applied. Is that correct? But how do air brakes work? Do they need air to force take the brakes off so should the pipe break the brakes are, again, automatically applied?

 

Phil

[corneliuslundie]

The GWR of course used vacuum brakes but at a higher vacuum which needed a pump rather than an ejector.

 

Jonathan

[62613]

As a slight diversion for the topic (but still relevant, I think!), I believe that vacuum brakes work by creating a vacuum to get the brakes off, so should the pipe break the vacuum is lost and the brakes are automatically applied. Is that correct? But how do air brakes work? Do they need air to force take the brakes off so should the pipe break the brakes are, again, automatically applied?

 

Phil

Yes, that's correct. Atmospheric pressure applies the brakes, but creating a vacuum, or increasing the air pressure in a Westinghouse-type system, brings the train brakes off. Steam locomotives were usually steam braked, and their brakes could be made to work simultaneously with the train brakes by a combination valve.

[Nick Holliday]

In special circumstances before WW1, see this drawing for instance.

This looks a bit of a red herring. The drawing may be dated 1914 but it is titled LNER and drawn at Stratford so the date must be at least ten years adrift. It also is for auto train control, so any additional pipe work is for control, rather than braking, purposes. Very similar to the genuinely earlier LBSCR Westinghouse system which featured a number of connecting pipes, resulting in an accident at Littlehampton caused by an inexperienced porter making the wrong connections.

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR of course used vacuum brakes but at a higher vacuum which needed a pump rather than an ejector.

 

Jonathan

Alas not so sir.  The 'pepper pots' on the ejectors are simply set differently to produce a greater vacuum(as measured by equating to a higher level of mercury in a column) thus on a GW engine or a BR Standard engine set to work Western vacuum the ejectors can readily create the required extra couple of inches of vacuum and provided it is so capable the ejector/exhauster on any loco could be set to do the same.  The reason for the pump was to assist in maintaining the vacuum thus reducing the workload on the ejectors thereby saving steam and therefore coal.  Presumably the Swindon accountants at some time did a calculation at the behest of the CME and proved to his satisfaction that it was more economical to fit and maintain a vacuum pump than it was to spend the money on coal.

 

As far as I know no WR allocated BR Standards had no vacuum pump so they presumably simply used a bit more coal & steam to keep the ejectors going.

 

The first amendment to the General appendix dealing with the two pipe air brake system was published in 1968 however this was simply the first national edition of the Regulations.  Freightliner trains began running in 1965 as, I believe, did air-braked mgr services - both used two-pipe air brakes.  In fact the main reason for BR's adoption of a two pipe system was usually stated to be because of the advantages it offered for freight trains with a quicker and far more even release of brakes throughout the train than a single pipe system offered.