BMacdermott

Hello Mike and Tony It seems that there are drawings etc in Bob Essery's 'The M&GN Jt Railway and its Locomotives'. Brian

Hello Tony and Mike I may be wrong but I have a feeling that the M&GN apparatus was slightly different to that of the S&D. Mike Arlett is trying to find out for me, so I'll write back soon. In 4mm, any differences might be too small to worry about, but it's worth me checking - even for my own education. Regards Brian

Hello Tony (et al) I wonder if anyone can help with a long-standing query with King's Cross in BR steam days? Most speed limits are in round figures...10mph, 20mph etc, but those at King's Cross station throat were 8mph. A photo on page 45 of P.N. Townend's book, Top Shed, shows the same speed limit applying to road traffic into the depot. Is there a story behind that figure? Brian Macdermott

As noted a few days ago, I have been liaising with some coaching stock friends with regard to what Thompson vehicle Tony might propose to Bachmann. Here’s what we think. We have written it in this format in the hope that it ‘rounds out’ all the very interesting discussion. Buffet Lounge Car (Diag.352) Built with fairing over solebars and used in the Flying Scotsman. Teak, then Red & Cream livery. Taken off Scotsman 1953 and moved to The Elizabethan until 1957 (still in Red & Cream or already Maroon?). Rebuilt 1958/9, maroon livery. The corridor side remained unaltered apart from the solebar fairing being removed. The pantry side was altered considerably and the original 8-seat lounge area was subsumed into a 24-seat saloon. Used in general ECML service; the Cambridge Buffet Express trains; Manchester-Harwich Boat Train (according to one author and one eye witness of our acquaintance, but we have no photographic evidence); and finally in Scotland. Re-painted in Blue/Grey livery (date?). E1705E renumbered as Sc1705E between 1.1.76 and 31.12.77. Withdrawn in 1979. Became a Departmental vehicle and appeared in Olive Green livery. E1706E had a similar history to E1705E, being withdrawn in c.1978 as Sc1706E. It has been preserved at Llangollen; they have restored it to original condition, reinstating the solebar fairing and painting it Red & Cream. The interior has been returned to the original including the 8-seat lounge. The difficulties with this one are: Most modellers don’t have room for a prototypical Flying Scotsman or Elizabethan. Many of the other required vehicles are not available RTR (and may well never be). The rebuild might add too much expense to any maker’s costs – given that ‘catering’ won’t sell as many as ‘ordinary’ stock. The benefits are: Gives a Blue/Grey vehicle and Departmental possibility (although we aren’t sure if it was physically altered in the latter service). 1705/6 have ‘celebrity status’ – they were the last pre-Nationalisation passenger-carrying vehicles in (public) service. Restaurant First (Diag.354) (later downgraded to RU) Built 1948/9 Simulated Teak, Red & Cream and Maroon liveries. Withdrawn mid-1960s. The difficulties are: The simulated Teak might be difficult due to the ‘grain’ running in different directions on the upper and lower panels. Restricted geographical use (but, surely, much more route mileage than Bachmann Birdcage stock?). Hasn’t had much support in the annual Wishlist Poll (but maybe modellers don’t know what they’re missing!? Perhaps Tony might write an article?). The benefits are: From the modeller’s perspective, could be used in the 9-coach Fair Maid with Bachmann Mk1 stock: BSK + SK + SK + SK + RU + RFO + CK + FK + BSK. This could be compressed to: BSK + SK + RU + CK and/or FK + BSK (i.e. five or six coaches). As noted by Coachman, the vehicle was a ‘good seller’ in times gone by. The Thompson style and the white windows ‘stand out’ nicely in an otherwise Mk1 train. Lighting would enhance the effect. Enables the modeller to run ‘an important train’. Would provide a good balance against Hornby’s Gresley Buffet Car. Another shortish train is the Norseman (see below). Notes to above: Link to Norseman: https://flic.kr/p/9tNATs Link to Talisman: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/Talisman_Notes_17-7-13.pdf Brian (with thanks to Chris Knowles-Thomas, Robert Carroll and Ian Taylor)

Hello Dave Can't keep up with all your announcements today!! Very well done again. As you know, I am a member of The Wishlist Poll Team. In the 2013 results, the Class 59 was the top-voted diesel loco (just missing being in The Overall Top 50 by four votes) The Class 71 was the top-voted electric loco placing it in overall ninth position! The Class 74 was the second most popular electric, placing it way up in the Top 50. I will certainly look into pacing an order for the 71 once you have the details sorted. All the very best! Brian

Hello Tony I'm not sure how to get the link to work here on RMweb, but if readers go to Flickr and (in the search bar) enter E1706E, they will find some more photos of the vehicle on the Llangollen Railway and some showing it in Blue/Grey. I am given to understand that one of the pair (1705?) eventually became a departmental coach at York (1985) and was painted Olive Green. It looks to me that the rebuilding work would effectively make it 'two projects' from a maker's perspective. A friend (a non Webber) has just returned from holiday and is looking up some rebuild data for me over the next few days. I think Coachman has a good point (#1832) that people go for 'looks' rather than absolute practicality. Not many have space to model prototypical Flying Scotsman sets etc, but many run compressed expresses. The best we can hope for in RTR is a reasonable range of coaching stock, and the Thompson RF (later RU) would fill a needy gap. I'll get back with more on this debate in a day or two. Brian

Hello 31A I'd love one of these. But weren't they rebuilt in 1959? Did that alter their appearance? If so, that might be a dampener as far as Bachmann is concerned as they'd need pre-1959 and post-1959 tools made. If the 'rebuild' was mainly internal, then maybe any small external differences could be accommodated with what I believe are called 'slip moulds'. Brian

Hello Tony As noted in my PM to you, some friends and I are looking into the subject and will reply soon. I fully agree that some form of Thompson catering stock is vital (and that many will run 'compressed trains'). Brian

Hello NHN and Gilbert I know this thread likes to 'get things right', so I hope the following will help. The van ahead of the N5 is not a CCT; it is a Van BY (or Van C in Southern Railway days). It has a guard's compartment in the middle, hence the 'B' in the description. The 'Y' represents the four wheels. The 8-wheel van is a Van B (also with guard's compartment in the middle). For those interested in what are generically known as 'SR utility vans', Mike King has written a three part series of articles in The Southern Way. The first two were in Issues 25 and 26. The final part will be in Issue 26 in July. All the best and thanks for the lovely fish train photos! Brian

Hello Mike Back in the 60s, the greater majority of the printers involved with WTTs etc had a proof-reading department, or at least one or two proof-readers. They were known in the trade as 'the readers'. If you look at the very small printer's imprint line (generally at the very front or very back of any WTT etc) you will regularly find names such as: Bemrose (Derby); McCorquodales (London etc) - known in the trade as McCorks; Love & Malcomson; Waterlow; Knapp Drewett etc. They were all 'big league' back then (and some still are). Many of the printers had a very close working relationship with the relevant BR departments over the years. For example, the name of Dawson & Goodall (Bath) can be found on many Somerset & Dorset publications. I have in my records (somewhere!) a long letter from an ex-S&D man (RR Perkins) who described to me how he worked with that company in the 50s. Brian

Hello Gilbert (and Stationmaster) I can't specifically give you an answer but, in 1956 (and most steam days), WTTs, PTTs, STNs etc were almost always printed by the letterpress printing process, working from metal type. Naturally, typesetting was an expense so, to keep costs down, printers would 'keep the type standing' ready for the next season or whenever. Another expression was 'a standing forme' (note the 'e' on the end). Many of my S&D WTTs have blank columns. It was easier to take out redundant text and leave the rest 'standing' rather than undertake all-new 'page make-up'. Just a note of interest: metal type was just under an inch high (to be precise, 0.918"). If your WTT is 10" x 8" and (say) 100pp, to store it all you would need a footprint area of 10" x 8" and a clear vertical space of 100" (if all the pages were stacked on top of each, which they wouldn't actually be in practice). Think how much we now get on a disc! Standing formes were 'locked up in a chase' (a metal frame) to be put on a printing press. Standard composing practice (abridged here for clarity) was to: 1. Gently 'lock up' (with quoins) 2. Plane the type (in other words, make sure all the type was on the same base level by gently hitting it with a piece of wood and hammer) 3. Gently lift the chase and lightly push on the type to see if any was likely to drop out. 4. Tighten more fully. Go to press. There were many occasions where even the most experienced 'old hands' forgot to lock up sufficiently, and type would spill across the floor to howls of laughter from 'the comps'! Brian (who studied such things at the London College of Printing in the 60s and subsequently worked in the printing industry)

Hello Grahame I'd like to say many congratulations to you on your first Journal, which has arrived with me today. I have been 'in your shoes' on other publications in the past and appreciate fully what work goes into such a production. All the best for the future. Brian (NGS member)

Hello Tony Author Mike King in his book An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches (page 194) states that the vehicle was, indeed, painted in readiness for this sombre duty. His caption accompanying a photo of the van on page 223 states that the photo was (quote): "...taken in July 1963, during one of the van's rare appearances outside Stewarts Lane carriage sheds". Brian

Hello Tony It was in the USA with a platform around it but has been back in the UK (Swanage) for some time. It was definitely painted in those colours in July 1962 (acccording to Mike King, author of SR coaching stock books). I'll try to find out about any others preserved. Brian

Hello Bigwordsmith and Gilbert The 1958 article in the Jan-Mar 2012 HMRS Journal lists the following running numbers, to which I have added some detail (stove etc): Van B (8-wheel) S216S – Not stove-fitted S396S – Stove-fitted Van BY (4-wheel) S404S – Stove fitted PMV (4-wheel Parcels & Misc Vans) S1276S – Even planking S1343S – Even planking S1373S – 2+2 planking S1479S – 2+2 planking S1489S – 2+2 planking S1621S – Plywood sides The Vans B and BY can certainly be ‘converted’ from the Hornby models shown in Gilbert's photo. However, BYs Nos.400 and 401 were fitted with side lamp irons for working certain freights west of Exeter (and of which I have only found one photo!) so best avoid those. PMV models will be available from Bachmann soon. Note that they are not the same as CCTs (which had end doors). I gather Bachmann will make these, too. The question of ‘what exactly is a utility van’ is a vexed one with many variations. Friends and I have an explanatory article in hand, so I can’t go into much detail here. Tri-ang didn’t help matters back in the late 1950s when they produced what they called a ‘Utility Van’ but was in fact ‘an impression’ (rather than a scale model) of a Corridor Parcels & Misc Van (CorPMV)! A very small cast plate near the running number stated the load and just PMV (not CorPMV!). And just to add to the confusion, the Southern Railway called them Gangwayed Bogie Luggage Van (GBL)! Incidentally, one such latter vehicle was in Winston Churchill’s funeral train in 1965 (albeit having been painted Umber & Cream about three years earlier). I’m hopeful that Hornby will give us a newly-tooled model soon. The fact that the actual vehicle has been preserved gives me even greater hope. Brian

Hello Tim and Mallard The postings about the vans need a little clarification…. The 8-wheel van is a Southern Region Van B; the 4-wheel vehicle is a Van BY. These were fitted with Guard accommodation whereas GUVs weren’t – hence the ‘B’ in the description. Neither is specifically for newspaper traffic, although either might well have been used for such. Those that were ‘dedicated’ to newspaper traffic carried roofboards as per link below…but, as you will see, the vehicle is a long way off its route! http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3316741061/ Although you can’t see it in the above photo, stove-fitted vans (B or BY) were distinguished by a small ‘chimney’ on the roof offset to one side above the Guard’s compartment and orange panels on the top left and right hand corners as well as on the bottom half of the Guard’s door. The link below shows that more clearly. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/6774231718/in/set-72157624322947536 The Vans B and BY weren’t supposed to work off the SR, but a BR circular from 1958 states that they were all missing! I have seen one as far away as Mallaig! Brian

Hello Chris I agree about the signalbox - but my layout is 'essence of S&D' rather than 'pure S&D', and part of the income from sales was donated to the Shillingstone project. I am a full member of the S&DRHT and take every opportunity to convince Bachmann etc that Midsomer Norton deserves some attention. Regards Brian

All the best, Grahame Brian (NGS member)

Hello Mallard I should qualify my statement of running 'all' the trains that ran on the S&D - I have the Pines Express and a couple of 'express sets' that represent the numerous through trains. The 2-set that forms the Bath-Midsomer Mallet and return later gets attached to the head of a Bulleid or Maunsell 3-set to form the 7.00am Templecombe-Bath Green Park (as per prototype). The Van B that was on my Milk train later gets inserted in between a 2-set and a B-set to form one of the Highbridge-Templecombe trains (again as prototype). There are other 'tricks' that can be played to enhance operation on any layout. These include: 1. Assume a hot box on a passenger coach and set it off to a siding, then pick it up later. 2. Run a Sunday Ballast Train (can involve wrong line working). 3. Assume some kind of 'traffic disruption' somewhere and have an express make a 'special stop' at your normally sleepy station. 4. Assume your Bulleid Pacific on the Pines Express is 'steaming badly' and attach a Jinty to assist. (Yes, that did happen.) If you make your layout 'generic' you can do all sorts of things. My Midsomer Mallet layout uses the Bachmann Shillingstone signalbox and three SR signals (MSE). If I change those to, say, Eastern Region types, the layout 'becomes' somewhere on the Lea Valley and I run my Britannia etc. Whilst I fully admire layouts such as Peterborough North and others here on RMweb, I find my varied interests can only be satisfied by being less focussed. Brian

Hello Mallard I entirely agree with Dr Gerbil-Fritters that layouts that are interesting to operate may well be better than simply 'watching the trains go by'. I am fortunate in having two layouts, one of which could be very similar to what you have in mind. I could have made it 'watching the trains go by', but introduced a number of operational aspects. The layout is double track with a station and two shortish sidings off one line with another line off further down which goes to an off-scene colliery. The layout is 'folded dogbone' - what goes one way will eventually come back the other via reverse loops and hidden sidings. The station is an amalgam of a number of stations on the S&D, particularly Midsomer Norton. I call it Midsomer Mallet. I can: 1. Run all the trains that ran on the S&D (in the late 50s/early 60s). Includes Milk, Coal, Passenger, Perishables, Pigeon Specials etc. 2. Run the 6.05pm Bath-Binegar and return - except that it's now Bath-Midsomer Mallet and return, requiring a run round in the station. 3. Run the Bath-Midsomer Norton (now Midsomer Mallet) coal empties to the off-scene colliery. The loaded Up trains require a run round in the station. 4. Set back the 2.40am Freight & Mail to the Up line to enable an overnight express from the Midlands to pass by. 5. Detach a pilot loco off one of the Down expresses (as was done at Shepton Mallet). 6. Attach 'urgent fruit vans' from Midsomer Mallet to Up and Down passenger trains. 7. Bank Down freight trains through the station and allow the banker to 'drop off' and return to the station wrong line. After crossing to the Up line, stop and take water in the station. 8. All Up freights stop to take water in the station having climbed over the Mendips from Evercreech Junction. The loco which attached 'urgent fruit vans' to passenger trains can hook on to the freight loco to return to 'Radstock' to save a path. All these things happened on 'the real S&D'. Hope this helps. Brian

Hello Iain I don’t write often as I can’t really add much to your work – but think you are doing a fabulous job! As I think I said in an earlier posting, Camden holds a special place in my memory as I went there so often during my spotting days of the late 50s/early 60s. I have a few moments of cine film taken sometime early 60s which I will try some way to copy for you (in due course). In the meantime, I stumbled across the photo below, which I don’t think has been mentioned on this thread. All the best! Brian http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/5957789982/in/photostream/

I would like to wish Gilbert - and everyone who makes the Peterborough North topic such an interesting and vibrant topic - a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Kindest regards to you all. Brian Macdermott

Hello Joseph I have looked at the Mike King drawings of the Tavern Car sets (as built and as re-built). There are some similarities (for example, the ends are the same), but my view – as a non-engineer – is that they really are ‘four different animals’. As you say, the modern need for accuracy overrides the old Hornby method of putting different sides on the same underframe and roof. Although the first Tavern Car sets entered service on the Southern Region in May 1949 on the Atlantic Coast Express, some sets could be seen on the ER (for example, on The Master Cutler and The White Rose). However, they all seem to have been back on the SR by summer 1950. Of course, the main attraction of the Tavern Cars is within the Atlantic Coast Express – and that train really warrants the Bulleid 10¼in ventilator stock (Loose BCK, 2-sets Nos.63-75 and 3-sets Nos.771-793). Somewhat annoyingly, the ‘loose BCK’ is different to that in the 2-sets! And this hasn’t mentioned a single one of the many coaches that are needed for GWR/WR, LMS/LMR and LNER/ER modellers! Brian

Bearing in mind what Joseph Pestell (#285), Stationmaster (#272) and Stewart (#291) said about the viability of coaching stock, there are many ways to view the subject. Whilst I would love a late version Tavern Car set, the number of tools required to produce the range might be off-putting. SR Bulleid Tavern Car Sets (as built 1949) Crimson & cream with ‘brickwork & beam’ effect. SR Bulleid Tavern Car Sets (with c.1951 rebuilt Composite Diner) Crimson & cream at first, then green from c.1957. SR Bulleid Tavern Car Sets (rebuilt Composite Diner & c.1959 rebuilt Tavern Car) Green from c.1959 to withdrawal by 1968. Only two vehicles, but four tools required to cover the range. If you look at the following (as an example), you get a different perspective… SR Bulleid 10¼in ventilator stock (Loose BCK; 2-sets 63-75; 3-sets 771-793) All were painted in malachite livery (albeit without ‘Southern’ markings), BR crimson and cream, and BR green liveries. Six coaches but only four tools needed. SR Bulleid 59ft Multi-door 3-sets (1945-1946) (Diags.2121/2316/2121) Three coaches but only two tools needed. None of this over-rides my desire for the Quad-Arts though! Brian (noting that I have given the above in good faith, although I am not a model engineer)

Hello Dave Further to my/your comments on Quad-Arts, I phoned a friend with the information (as he is not 'RMweb-connected'). He has asked me note his serious interest here (and he knows several more 'non-net-connected' modellers who would want sets too). If you can find a 'clever design' way to keep the vehicles tightly spaced on the straight, yet open up on 2nd or 3rd radius curves, then that would be excellent. Brian