bbishop

Is anyone called Richard Montgomery? Bill

Jamie, are we a grandfather yet? Keep well all, Bill

which is why I used the word "acquired". agreed, I actually meant design, and will change my draft, which is why you are peer reviewing. yup, but I'm deliberately keeping things simple, so no change. Bill

Remember that I'm asking you to spot howlers, I am keeping the story as simple as possible. I've completely ignored topics such as wagon livery. Part the third ..... 3 WAGON DESIGN – Many companies built POWs, but two companies dominated the market – Charles Roberts and the Gloucester Co. They had different designs. Earlier I mentioned that the RCH produced specifications. Three of these are relevant. The RCH 1887 specification permitted some flexibility of design for 8 ton and 10 ton wagons. The CR and Gloucester designs developed over time. The RCH 1907 specifications effectively took the two companies latest designs for 8 ton, 10 ton and 12 ton designs. Other companies had to adopt these designs, most choosing the CR design. Finally the RCH 1923 specification adopted only the latest CR design for 12 ton wagons. I have excluded hopper wagons from my story. Remember they were prevalent on the north east of England. Mineral wagons were different to general goods wagons. They had to be strong, because the coal was tipped into them at the collieries. So the top planks were often the length of the wagon, with the side doors less than the full height of the wagon. However some locations required end tipping or unloading by gravity. But remember our coaster? A colliery wagon transported the coal from the South Wales collieries. The coal was end tipped into the coaster, which steamed across the Bristol Channel, before the coal was unloaded by crane into the wagon of a factor (possibly Renwick, Wilton and Dobson). So factors and collieries acquired wagons with side, end and bottom doors, although it was very rare for a wagon to have two end doors. Merchants liked wagons with side doors only because they were stronger and cheaper. But there were often second hand bargains….. LIFE, ETC – Mineral wagons had a tough life. They probably survived for more than 20 years but accidents could shorten their lives. But some merchants would treat their wagon as a family pet! Few 8 ton wagons survived until 1939. Some merchants had strange numbering policies, such as even numbers only, or numbers ending in “7”, or year of acquisition (eg 1910). MODELS – Your starting point could be the Gauge O Guild website, look at Products, then Traders’ Websites. Dapol make ready to run models but frankly I am not a fan. POW Sides and Slaters make painted kits. Peco (Parkside Dundas), Furness and Slaters make unpainted kits. The Slaters range is very comprehensive, however Peco make steel underframe wagons, which became common in the 1920s. You will observe descriptions of wagons on the Slaters website. The Gloucester kits represent wagons built only by that company. You may assume that other builders produced a wagon that was similar to the CR design. I have emphasised that there was flexibility so these kits are only a representation of the actual design. However British modellers are not concerned by the variations. But builders adhered closely to the RCH 1923 specification. POW Sides often paint a Slaters kit. Slaters are plastic kits that are assembled with a solvent (eg 2-butanol). There are brass parts that you must score and fold. You can strengthen the folds with solder. Lost wax castings (eg buffers) must be carefully drilled out, especially buffers in order to retain the spring. You will need hand tools and a soldering iron. POST HISTORY – The Government requisitioned most Private Owner wagons at the start of WW2 and the wagons were never returned to their owners. They were very run down by 1945 and most 10 ton wagons were scrapped. British Railways 16 ton steel mineral wagons gradually replaced the RCH 1923 wagons. They were painted grey but many of them appeared to be unpainted. One was unlikely to see a wooden mineral wagon after 1963 on British Railways. BIBLIOGRAPHY – these books are useful, mostly available from second hand dealers: British Goods Wagons from 1887 to the present day – R J Essery etc., published in 1970! Private Owner Wagons, Volume 1 to 4 – Bill Hudson Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester RC&W Co. – Keith Montague Private Owner Wagons, Collections 1 to 13 – Keith Turton Private Owner Wagons – various regional collections by various authors.

Part the second ..... 2 THE PLAYERS - The smallest player was the TRADER. Probably he owned a horse and cart, to deliver to the householder. He might purchase the coal from the next player up the chain, the MERCHANT. He probably had an office in the station yard. He would sell to the trader or directly to the householder. He would purchase from the colliery and had to transport the coal from the colliery to his siding in the station yard. He might acquire wagons to transport coal from his chosen colliery to his siding. Many merchants used their wagons for advertising, with their name, address and telephone number painted on the side. If the colliery was in Nottinghamshire and the merchant in Kent, then the wagons would mainly travel between these counties. However the merchant might not have wagons and could use a FACTOR to transport the coal. Some factors were also merchants. Again some factors only delivered to certain parts of the country, eg Moy concentrated within East Anglia. The final player was the COLLIERY, which had their own fleet of wagons, with which they could deliver to the merchant. Anthracite was a special type of coal, mined in South Wales, with a low arsenic content. It was used by food and drink manufacturers, including breweries, and often travelled in wagons owned by the anthracite colliery that could be seen anywhere in the country. Most railway companies only transported coal for their locomotives, but I will identify some exceptions later. TRAFFIC – On the main lines, coal was transported in mineral trains and general freight transported in goods trains. However we often model a branch terminus, where the freight and mineral traffic was amalgamated in the “pick up goods” train. So freight and mineral wagons would be seen in the same train. I mentioned there were exceptions. The North Eastern Railway had a monopoly of coal traffic, using their own hopper wagons, so very few Private Owner Wagons would be found in that part of England. Earlier I mentioned that West Country coal was transported by coaster to a port and the onward transportation was mainly by a factor – often in Renwick, Wilton and Dobson wagons. My third article will consider models and provide a bibliography.

Gentlemen, Thank you. I have already amended my draft, which I shall post here in three sections. Remember, the target audience is a German O Gauge modeller, who is tempted into the British scene. So I must present a simple and coherent story, and I still have to translate into German! So part the first ..... 1 HISTORY – The very early railways allowed anyone to operate trains. Chaos! So the railway companies provided the locomotives but the Government permitted the use of privately owned wagons. So the history of Private Owner Wagons starts in about 1845 and ends in 1939, when the Government acquired them at the beginning of WW2. However, very few people model before 1880, so that is when our story starts. GOODS – Many goods were transported in Private Owner Wagons (eg oil, petrol, chemicals, stone, clay, coke) but I shall concentrate on coal. TRANSPORTATION Road – horse and cart, lorry (local delivery) Canal – cheap but slow. Coaster – cheap, but at least two transhipments. Used for riverside industry (electricity and gas production) or when quicker than rail ( to Cornwall). Railways – the rest. ORGANISATIONS – The Board of Trade (BoT) regulated the railway companies and determined standards for wheels, buffers, brakes etc. The railway companies created the Railway Clearing House (RCH). A responsibility of the RCH was the provision of specifications, to satisfy the BoT regulations, but also to define how the wagons were built. We can use shorthand, so RCH 1923 is the specification implemented in that year. I will write later about the users, specifications and models.

Gentlemen, Thank you for your replies. The fact that none of you answered my question probably means that the question itself was wrong. I am very aware that the wagon builders (especially Charles Roberts and Gloucester) developed the design of POWs between the RCH specifications. In effect, the RCH specifications were playing catch up with actual practice. So the Slaters kits are representative of what was actually happening, so I shouldn't get too hung up in attempting to tie them into a specific specification. I shall amend my draft and publish on RMWeb in the next day or two. Bill

Gentlemen, I know it is a long way from ER, but perchance could you look at, and if possible comment on, my Private Owners thread in "Modelling Musings & Miscellany". Thanks, Bill

Best wishes to Beth and Jamie. Get back safely. Bill

William actually broke his collar bone in the fall, consequentially dying of pneumonia. By the by, the nag was called Sorrel. Bill

Affirmative. Bill

Another Starwars moment, never having owned (and barely used) a satnav. It took me about a year to get through LOTR, never again! I pretty damn certain that I don't have ppi; I rarely had a loan and always ticked the "no insurance" box on a form. I keep on getting letters, however, but deem it courteous to send back the reply paid envelope. At least it helps Royal Mail. I was in the CCF at school. I was told by a regular on a camp that I was the worst shot and the untidiest cadet in the contingent, but I was the only one who could both read a map and "ground". I always got the platoon back to camp on the evasion exercise without being caught; basically kept off main roads and avoided any "PH" on the map, because that's where the officers would be, looking out the window. Bill

Before I submit my draft for your scrutiny, may I ask about Slater's wagons? The question is about the RCH specification associated with each kit. Kits 7045 - 48 are RCH 1923, obviously! Kits 7040 - 41 are Charles Roberts 7 plank, and appear to be to the RCH 1911 specification. Kits 7058 - 59 are Gloucester7 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1911 specification, can anyone confirm? Kits 7035 - 36 are Gloucester 6 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm? Kit 7044 is Gloucester 5 plank, and appears to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm? As you can tell, I'm especially unsure about the Gloucester wagons and it doesn't help that the company were pretty flexible about details such as inside or outside strapping. Is length the determining factor, 14½ft for RCH 1887 and 15½ft for RCH 1911? I'm not sure! Thanks, Bill

Gondola, Queen Mary or Pillbox? Hat, coat, door! Bill

Ditto, it'd part of the job description for a wicket keeper. Bill

Tiger, I do know of one person with an acetic acid allergy but , looking on the internet, it isn't common. There is a risk that allergies become more serious over time, so I suggest you ingest a small amount of vinegar (fish & chips?) with someone else present. If you suffer an allergy, then it's a 999 call. If no reaction, then maybe another pickled onion tomorrow. Bill

Nimbus, The first batch of Silberlingen appeared in 1961, painted green. TonyA could tell you their Direktion, but it wasn't Oberfranken where Höchstädt is set. However, I moved the date of Höchstädt forward a year to accommodate the Silberlingen. Any further and other stock would have been scrapped. The main run of Silberlingen, in peacock's tails, were a year or so later. And I have Mitteleinsteigwagen as well. Bill

Andy, If your train stops at Vauxhall, then Vic to KX/STP. Otherwise from W'loo, Bakerloo to Oxford Circus, cpi Vic to KX/STP. Then the decision, either KX or there are four an hour from the Thameslink platform at STP. Bill

Baz, Never a wicket keeper, then? I collected a fair number of knocks, and smashed glasses when standing up to a fast bowler and the ball ricocheted off the bails. Walked off with departing batter, wiped off blood, put on spare glasses and walked on with new batter. Bill

Ian, I don't want to bu99er you about but, by the late 1950s, the South Eastern side was pretty well just EPBs and HAPs. The Chatham side still had a few wooden bodies SUBs, but the vacuum braked stock was mostly on the Brighton side. Bill

I can recreate the train in the initial posting in O Gauge, albeit my Silberlingen are green. The train is four foot long! Bill

A comment on Niels post - most NER locomotives had six drivers. Bill

Evening awl, I model Spur Null so have no need of Classified, I can normally get a free pass to Ally Pally by manning a stand (if I'm not at the International Spur Null Tage in Gießen that weekend) and anyway I dislike faffing around failing to post a piccie - so another NO. As for today, physio on my knee went well, the lass watched me on one of their machines and reckons that I can ride the bike again, but only short distances and no main roads. Then I collected my best teeth from the dentist! Got home to a summons for jury service. The fortnight is clear, but is immediately followed by my CFR course, then by a medical procedure. So I'm saying "yes", but will write them a letter. Keep well awl, Bill

Morning awl, Happy birthday to King Michael the First. Well, you're allowed two birthdays. I think a few warrants of execution are in order ..... Physiotherapy this afternoon and maybe, just maybe, collecting the teeth. I'm wearing the spare set at the moment - none too secure. Keep well awl, Bill

Most aesthetically pleasing class? In my opiniony Dugald Drummond's four coupled tender locomotives. Chimney directly above the bogie pivot, dome directly above the leading driving wheels. Visual perfection. And the D15 class (albeit superheated) were surely the second best 4-4-0 locomotives in the country. Pity there were only ten of them. Bill