ChrisN

I can only say what I know about the Cambrian Coast line in 1895.  There were a couple of freights either way from Machynthlleth to Pwllheli, plus two from either end that only went half way.  They each had an extended time at the stations.  I have assumed, on evidence that I do not remember, that one that went the full distance was a pick up freight, and the other was unloading of vans/ wagons.  (This I have assumed as they were mixed trains with passengers as well.)  They did take a long time.  The morning one from Machynthlleth left at 6:25am and got to Phwllheli at 2:05pm, passenger train, 8:40 am to 11:30am, and from Pwllheli, 1:20pm to 6:20pm.

I assume, with no real basis, that the Cambrian would not do lodging turns, so the crews would work one way on a passenger train, and the other on a goods.  

I think every branch and company might be different, so as it is your company, I would read what others did and then make up something believable.

44 minutes ago, brumtb said:

Be strong Chris!  I just can't resist the 40' vans, or the early siphons for that matter!

Tony

Tony,

The siphon kits I had, I think are quite good, although as with all things there could be improvements.  The link is on my thread or if you like I could post it here.  (Usual disclaimers.)

17 minutes ago, brumtb said:

Two excellent new books just arrived.

Full of information, drawings and photos, lots to get stuck into!

 

Tony

Tony,

Very interesting.  Ooh, I feel a pull.  'Must not get into 40ft vans, I must not get ...........'

I am still very slowly finishing off my siphons and will post when I have advanced a bit.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/midland-railway-water-tank-panel-plain-r69bc-sms4g-azc62-n26p6-7dy5n-e8xe2-wml49-e6xw9-pwjf6-9y6wk-3wzrm

Thank you, they are nearly the same size as the big ones that I have.  Perhaps I ought to get some just to compare the size.

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

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Thinking about it, the brewery would need a delivery vehicle for the beer, so could move the coal from the yard to the brewery itself. And the next subject is barrels for delivering the beer. There has been a long discussion on the subject in the Midland wagon thread. Another rabbit hole.

BTW there are now several north Wales distilleries. Would there have been any in 1895?

Jonathan

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Another topic that has been discussed hereabouts. just the one in 1895, I think, established by a Mr Lloyd-Price:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_whisky#Revival.

See also:

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/32565#?xywh=-1%2C-48%2C700%2C536

and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frongoch_internment_camp.

The climate of Welsh Methodism and the Temperance Movement was rather inimicable to the whisky business.

Thank you both.

Would the Brewery really want to move coal on their dray that carried the barrels?

I remember a discussion on I think Edwardians thread about barrels, and I have a Preiser set of various sizes.  The largest I thought was the one I wanted so I checked its volume and is around 77 gallons, or about the size of a butt.  I had bought some Dapol ones and they were just a shade smaller.  There were some in the pack that were about the right size, 36 gallons.  I am not sure they deliver that size anymore but if Youngs still do their 'every pub' challenge then that is the size you win.

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think either Mr Parry would order in the anthracite (probably in the colliery wagon) or the brewery would order via a coal factor, but in the latter case they would have to arrange unloading and transfer to the brewery whereas if it was purchased via Mr Mr Parry he might well deliver (and would have a vehicle to do it).

If it came via a factor it might either be in a colliery wagon or in one belonging to the coal factor.

So lots of choice.

I really haven't a clue how much would be used by the brewery but I suspect that 10 tons would last quite a long time. 

Jonathan

I assume that he would bag it up and take it like that as then there would be no argument on how much he had delivered?

I think I am right in saying that one of the uses of anthracite was in brewing.  Before I go on a trawl of the internet, does anyone know how much anthracite a small brewery would use?  (Yes, I know it is like asking how long is a piece of string, which does of course have an answer?)  

Now Thomas Edwards, of Edwards Brewery, purveyors of fine Welsh Beer, does not have its own siding, so could he be supplied by R. Parry Coal Merchants, or would that be too much?  Mr Parry at the moment has exclusive use of the coal yard at Traeth Mawr. 

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I do have a GN gunpowder van along with an NB one. These are quite bright compared to the drab SECR greys but plausible (I could of brought more Iron Minks but then it would look overpowering and non realistic).

 

An Earlier train today with the SE&CR RCH wagons, also the GC and GW RCH pair, a Rapido GWR 4 plank and some Rails 1424 vans and Rapido Gunpowder vans. I have too many 1424s (I only wanted the 5 SECR ones, but ended up with SR ones at the start that I repainted before later getting the SECR ones - you can see why I need more opens 😅).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do like your layout, and the way you run your trains right to the edge.  I have to do the same and will shortly be installing a protection barrier like yours, although mine will be a bit higher as it has to be grandchild proof.

4 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

Just chilling this evening in the garage with YouTube hooked up to the HiFi after a grueling day on my knees laying floors and thought it was time we had some trains on here!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Especially like the third picture, I think there is something special about two steam locomotives together like that.

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

For details of coal mined at collieries in south Wales an invaluable source is Tony Cooke's book and accompanying CD: "Gazetteer of the coal mines of South Wales & Monmouthshire from 1854" (Lightmoor, 2018).

For Cwrt-y-Bettws (note spelling) it says:

"Minerals worked - Manufacturing and steam coal"

For Raglan Slants Bridgend, "Household and manufacturing coal", seam worked from 1908, and for Raglan No 4 Drift, Bridgend "Manufacturing and household coal 1911--1922" 

So both too late and not anthracite.

Garnet slant was worked from much earlier, but seems to have stopped in 1875, starting again in 1880 but no proper records until 1910, again household and manufacturing coal.

Anthracite was normally found only at the western side of the south Wales coalfield.

I am therefore a bit puzzled by the 1902 photograph.

According to Cooke, Ernest Hall Hedley and Henry Moreton Hedley (note the spelling) had interests in Brynwith, Cwmnantllwd & Cwmnantllwyd Old Level, Cwrt-y-Bettws, Garnet, Great Morfa, Gwyn’s Drift, Primrose No. 2, Raglan, Raglan No. 4, Tareni Nos 1 & 2, Tareni Level, Waunycoed, Waunycoed Drifts, Ynysfechan.

So not much help for Chris I am afraid.

But for anthracite almost any colliery west of Llanelly is likely.

One problem with many of the PO wagon kits and transfers is that most are well after 1895.

Jonathan

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is true but Powsides do a good few for Gloucester wagons based on Gloucester official photos taken in the late 1890s and early 1900s, which is good for my 1902 date! (Too many nearly-new wagons, not enough old dumb buffers - which is tolerable in a Midland context but poor balance for other lines.) On the other hand, the Slaters Gloucester wagons have the round-bottomed Gloucester type 4 axleboxes of the early 90s rather than the square-bottomed 4S ones seen in all those photos. Fortunately Dart / MJT have cast whitemetal ones, or one can use the Cambrian Models Gloucester underframes.

Thank you both. Jonathan, there is a lot of useful information there.  If there are no pictures then who can tell me if I wagon I use is wrong?  Probably the early type axleboxes are correct for when I am modelling.

I will make notes, as I am not really onto wagons yet,  As for dumb buffered ones, I have some, three, from 5 &9, but if I need to make some more I shall trawl through your thread Stephen

23 hours ago, tanatvalley said:

There were three routes for coal onto the Cambrian Coast line, in the north via Afon Wen from the Wigan coalfield, the centre via Ruabon from the Wrexham coalfield and in the south via Welshpool from the North Staffs and Shrewsbury coalfields. The Shrewsbury coalfield seems to have only been for the Mid Wales line. Also anthracite from South Wales. There were several gasworks on the coast line but I do not know when they opened. The North Staffs wagons can be seen at Aberdovey on the sand sidings and quay.

Alan,

Thank you.  I may have know that at some time, but of course I had forgotten it.  It also means I can put the right wagons on the right trains.

I assume that 'Evans and Bevan', (lovely name), and Hedleys both Collieries in Neath would have supplied anthracite?

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In 1923, the directors of the Ruabon Coal & Coke Co. were Charles B.O. Clarke (Chair)*, H.D. Dennis (Managing Director), P.S. Godman, G.N.E. Hall-Say, H. Kent, and Sir Stephenson H. Kent, KCB:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/r1004.htm. 

Clarke and Kent were also directors of Powell Duffryn among other coal firms. A partial list of Great Western directors reveals no overlap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Directors_of_the_Great_Western_Railway,

which is not to say that at some period the two companies may not have had directors in common.

 

*His parents must carry for the blame for the misery he undoubtedly suffered at school in consequence of his middle initials.

 

It would appear that HRH was down one of the pits of the Wynnstay Colliery Co., whose directors in 1923 were L.E.W. and T.F. Edgerton:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/w1043.htm.

 

The Durham Mining Museum website is a really useful tool, though it does not have a complete list of collieries.

Thank you, that seems a really useful tool, and er, a good rabbit hole to disappear down.

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

here’s one one what I dun earlier. I was drawn to this one as I understand various GWR high ups were on the board. Then the loyal subjects in Traeth Mawr will happy in the knowledge that it was HRH Princess Beatrice wot dug it out.

 

Jonathan.

I think I have seen that picture before.  Fascinating.  I wonder how far down the colliery it was; was it dug out especially so she could stand up? 

I have a POW sides Black Park Colliery, Ruabon, and there could be a second.  I do like the look of yours, well done,  Was the Coal and Coke Co. a Factor, merchant or colliery?

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Chris, have you considered trawling the local planning portal?

 

You can download any architect's plans for old building conversions, which might provide you with some useful examples of vernacular structure sizes, proportions, gable angles and such like.

 

The first one I randomly clicked on on the Gwynedd portal:

 

James,

Thank you.  I did know about this, and in fact this is how I know I have the size of Mr Price's house correct as the side I am not modelling, in the recent past has put in a planning application for a balcony.  (I think it is more to have doors open to let in the sea air than to sit and watch cars in the car park.) 

This is a good reminder as there are buildings I need to know the exact sizes of, or rather it would be better than doing it from my photos and measurements. (Criccieth Chapel for instance.)

9 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

Hi Chris. About building sizes. Most modern houses (which we're almost all familiar with) are all very much the same size, average sized rooms with 8-foot ceilings! Older buildings are different. Houses of the poor could be downright cramped, especially the older ones built when folk were much shorter. Our Belgian cottage Cira1776 was one such dwelling, when we viewed it, the oak beams were only 5'6" clearance! (Some of which had succumbed to gravity in the middle too). 

Later buildings had taller ceilings which got taller with wealth and status. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Prices house, given his status would have been quite grand! Imagine having those interviews with the locals in one of Mr. Prices reception rooms. The voices echoing around the room and the clink of china cups on china saucers. Wouldn't you also have needed an interpreter for some of the older locals?   

 

Pugh, Pugh, Barney Mcgrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb.😁    

 

Great stuff as always!

Shaun,

Thank you.  I think it appears big next to the Airfix Inn, but it is also larger than 'Sportsman's Cottage' which in real life is larger than the cottages next to it.

This is the prototype of Sportsman's and yes, that green next to it covers a cottage.

Mr Price is a local and has Welsh as his first language so I think he  would have no problems with the older locals.  As for the contractor, he just needs an interpreter, full stop.

1 hour ago, GWR57xx said:

There’s another example here:
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh1117a.htm

 

 

Nick,

Yes, I think it looks more like this one.

30 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

I was thinking of the station. This sort of thing:

 

 

 

🙂

 

Anyway, the blog sounds good, I hope that will appear some day!

 

Yes, and of course we have the refreshment rooms, which must be a rich source of material.

How about Owen?  How is he getting on with the doctor's daughter, or has he found someone else?  Who knows?  (I think the ladies in the refreshment rooms are too old for him.)

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Mike Lloyd's Private Owners on the Cambrian (WRRC, 1998) - perhaps the book you are thinking of? - gives examples of wagons from the North Staffs coalfield (Florence Coal & Iron Co.; Midland Coal Coke & Iron Co., etc.) and Cannock Chase (J. Hawkins & Sons, Old Coppice Colly; Cannock & Rugeley Colly; Cannock Chase Colly). From Rapido's point of view, several of these firms' wagons were widely distributed, with examples photographed in the popular south-of-the-Thames area.

Yes that is the book.  I think sometimes, although it may be someone different he is referred to as Mike Morton-Lloyd.  I am working from a memory that is not as good as it was.

Yes, there is still hope.  Eventually I might build my own, but in the meantime.............

1 hour ago, Donw said:

Trying to work out the wagons one would see is difficult.  The colliery end is easier although amongst the colliery and coal factor wagons would be some merchants wagons. I lodged once with someone whose Grandfather had been a coal merchant they had a single wagon but he had no memory of which colliery it would be sent to.

There seems to be a lack of pre-group photos showing the wagons.

 

Don

Yes no one really photographed much on the Cambrian, let alone wagons.  I have the Morton book, (?) and I have a a list of the POW sides wagons that correspond, some of which I have waiting to be built.  What we really want, is some wagons from around Wrexham, or Ruabon, or into Cheshire.  I do mention this on the Rapido thread in the hope that someone might take it up.

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

It strikes me that life in and around Traeth Mawr would make excellent reality TV, and the first of its kind that I'd actually want to watch.

 

Though I am not sure the contractor would approve 🙂

1 hour ago, Nick Gough said:

Or an adult version of Camberwick Green/Trumpton/Chigley? 

(No, I don't mean an X-rated one!)

Thank you.

I think most people would find it very boring.  Just normal everyday life.  People working hard and trying to get on with each other. Not much industry, plenty of hotels on the sea front, lovely beach, (of course), a boy's boarding school, and a girl's boarding school, whose pupils are rigorously kept apart, half a dozen churches, (not counted them up really), a happy little community with two or three gossips so that everyone knows everyone else's business, and no TV cameras trying to rake up things to keep people from switching off as it is ordinary boring life.

I had thought of writing a blog of interviews with locals, but I have not done so, 1) because I want the layout to look more like the town before I do, and 2) I think it would probably be misunderstood, as the people would speak with the mindset of 1895, although written in a way to poke fun at some things, ( "What is the point of giving bursaries to local girls to go to Lady Gwyneth's school.  What is the point of educating girls anyway?)

2 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

What a fascinating diversion....  It's really interesting reading the comments explaining why pre-grouping uniforms are so rare in terms of museums collections etc.  They were simply working garments that were worn to destruction or returned to the company for recycling.  Anyway, had fun painting the Stadden figures although 20 in the one sitting was a little bit repetitious.  Here they all are milling about waiting for the station to be built:

 

 

 

I do struggle a bit with facial features, generally wimp out and go for the amorphous pink blob.  Has just occurred to me though that this took at least 5 days of my leisure time (in between all the summer type activities such as sailing, cycling and tennis) - heaven help me in terms of actually finishing the layout!

These look very good, well done.

I am probably biased but figures are generally the poor relations on model railways, yet the railways existed for people.  I think the Stadden figures are the best.  You have to be careful though as sometimes you might find them posting on your thread.  (Trust me I know, 🙂.)

"Hello, I am not sure that you know me.  I am Mr Parry, the Traeth Mawr Coal Merchant.  Now you see my wagon at the end there.  That has proper buffers, not like these two.  Now you see these are nicely painted, not like mine, I am still waiting for the contractor to finish it off!  Now where is he, you may ask?  That is a good question.  He is around somewhere, but not here which is why I am speaking to you.  Last time I saw him he was making windows, and not doing a very good job of it.  'Working it out as I go along,' he said, 'once I know what I am doing I will be quicker.'  It makes you want to cry.  These are windows for Mr Price's house, poor man.  I feel really sorry for him.  He is a nice man, a bit pompous at times but really nice.  The contractor has had him locked up somewhere, just to stop him complaining.  His poor wife has had to go and live with her mother in Dolgelly, took four of her children as well.  Young Owen mind, I think he is enjoying it, says he is Acting Station Master, or some such thing, even when there are more senior staff members around.  He sleeps in the Station Masters office, except on Saturday night when he catches the last train out, stays with his Granny and his family, and then comes back on the first train on a Monday morning.  He sits in the guards van, jumps off as soon as it stops, runs across the tracks, no footbridge yet, opens everything up, and sells tickets for the first train in from Pwllheli.  The Foreman Porter Mr Richards is not happy about this as the station is supposed to be open from 6am, so he comes in a six and open the goods shed.  Me, I am glad I live further out in Traeth Mawr, as I have my house, and very comfortable it is too."

"Now why am I here?  It is these two wagons.  What are they doing here?  In my siding?  I only hope they do not make me pay 'demurrage' on them."

"Why are they here?  I heard someone somewhere say they came 'quickly', or something like that.  They are a bit far away, I mean we usually get our coals from the North Wales coal fields, or maybe Cheshire, so maybe they could not get the right contracts.  They seem a bit clean to me, but still.  As one has no coal in, well not much anyway, lets turn it over and have a look."

"See, brakes on one side, and stuff for the buffers I think.  Let's take a look from the other side."

"Well, not sure why they are here but I need to get the coal out of the other one before it disappears.

As he says, 'If you have been thanks for looking'"

7 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

This next tree is worth a post all of its own. (Oh no, we're on the next page and he's still on about trees).

I've had this white metal tree for ages and don't remember where it came from. It had to be soldered up and after bending it I gave it a coat of primer.   

Then, after the usual dogbedstuffin-n-darkbrownrattlecanpaint treatment, I added Noch light green leaves.

It makes quite a convincing ash tree. Still needs a little paint on the trunk and branches etc.

 

 

Here it is planted behind the new farmhouse on Queensbury which seemed like a suitable place seeing that there was a void there and we have two behind our house. I'll probably go on to make it a brother next.

 

Squatch.

Lovely specimen Shaun.

It is a bit close to the house so you will need to be careful it does not undermine its foundations.  🙂

Shaun,

It takes a brave man to do an actual scale size tree, as most people are worried that it will look too big and overpower the layout.  Yours looks really good, and I like the way you have changed the colour of the grass underneath the trees.  

I hope the dof does not miss its bed stuffing and comes to look for it.  

I have a new laptop which runs Windows 11.  I have kept an old Windows 10 laptop going as I knew it worked with my machine, Cameo 2 I think.  I thought I would try my new one on the cutter and much to my surprise the cutter saw the laptop and it all worked as it should.

The Silhouette Studio I am running is 4.5.738