Jol Wilkinson

John, thank you but I regard my model making and models as only average. They are intended to be what are normally regarded as "layout" models so meeting the "2 feet rule". I have been fortunate to know some people that I regard as exceptional modellers, including the late John Hayes. I wouldn't put my models in the same category as what he produced but I hope my models and occasional article has motivated and helped people to have a go at making models, trying something apparently difficult, etc. I find today's "collector" approach to model railways rather depressing, where people who claim to be modellers put more effort into pounding the keyboard creating wishlists, rather than getting on with making what they so desperately want. Jol

I apologise for introducing some model making to this thread. Perhaps you will have found your answer somewhere in the preceding 500 or so replies, especially the reviews in posts 428 and 443.

According to Jenkinson, the D9 Diners were 9' wide. This width was apparently used on the D35A Clerestory Diners built in 1903 - 4, then the D9 and the subsequent elliptical roof dining carriages. The wooden profiled roof supplied for the D9 Modellers World kit is actually for a 8' 6" coach. This confirms my recollection that the B Stevenson article was actually about widening the roof, using the cove roof aluminium extrusion. So the wooden roof fits the W10, with its narrow body and vestibules. One way I read about to to widen the roof was to stick a piece of .5mm thin ply (obtainable from a model boat supplier) under the roof to widen it by 1.0mm either side, filling and contouring the roof edge to suit.

Peter, I think you may be right about your kits origin but they have now "disappeared". I believe Errol Surman retained the rights to the etched carriage sides in the 247 range when he sold it to Gary Wells, although Gary still supplied them. When 247 recently passed to Brian Mosby they became no longer available (Errol Surman possibly wanted too much income from them - not an unknown situation). The history of many of the early LNWR 4mm etched coach kits and sides available from Jackson-Evans, Microrail, Brian Badger, David Gillot, Modellers World and possibly others, is rather hazy. Larry, Barrie Stevenson wrote a piece in one of the magazines (possibly Model Railways) on creating a roof using a cove roof extrusion and the etched clerestory sides from the kit. Unfortunately I no longer have a copy. From memory he took a section out of the centre of the roof so that the area between the clerestory sides was open. Whether that was because the roof width needed modifying I can't recall. He then started to produce and sell the cast resin roof which was solid. BS also produced resin roofs for the 50' Brake Van and 50' "Boff" Bicycle Van, but these were 4mm too long for the etched sides! I still haven't got around to building mine yet. Sandy, I took the panel beading locations from the Jenkinson photo, removing the unwanted sections carefully - although there are still some marks on a couple of the panels. However, I have now got a rare 4mm model of a 12 wheel diner. Thinking? It's bad for you. Just get on with model making and leave the thinking to the RTR collectors trying to work out what they want the manufacturers to make for them next.

Sandy, very nice. The only 4mm LNWR/.WCJS twelve wheel diner kit was, AFAIK, the Modellers World D9, so that is probably what you have. The profile milled wooden roof was too narrow and Barry Stevenson of Stevenson Carriages produced a cast resin version. I don't know if it is still available but the one I bought became banana shaped (it was already that colour) and developed some cracked so I gave up with it and decided to convert the kit to a D10 when I found the - no longer available - BB narrow vestibule etc. Jol

I'll be modelling 1309 Adriatic as she was the last survivor in 1907, so the D10 and the 42' coaches I have built should be a match. Larry, you are a very naughty boy!

No way! I've got a LRM kit for one. I'll probably do it after the Teutonic, Renown and Jubilee, but before the Coal Engine, 4' 6" Tank and Experiment.

Something to go with the Precursor. This is a model of a LNWR/WCJS D10 dining saloon. Built from a Modellers World D9 kit, with a Bill Bedford narrow vestibule etch for the ends and running on Masokits sprung bogies.The carriage sides needed some lower beading removed and the ends also needed modifying a bit as there were a couple of errors. The D10's were 8' 6" wide - rather than the 9' of the D9 - which is useful as the profiled wooden roof ( with etched clerestory side overlays) is correct for the narrower body. Nearly finished are two Brian Badger kits for a WCJS 42' arc roof brake/third and a 42' composite, plus a 50' brake/third from a set of Trevor Charlton etched zinc sides/ends.

Just realised I posted this in the wrong thread. It should be over here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14518-brassmasters-lnwr-precursor/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2696791 Oh, the joys of old age!

Something to go with the Precursor. This is a model of a LNWR/WCJS D10 dining saloon. Built from a Modellers World D9 kit, with a Bill Bedford narrow vestibule etch for the ends and running on Masokits sprung bogies.The carriage sides needed some lower beading removed and the ends also needed modifying a bit as there were a couple of errors. The D10's were 8' 6" wide - rather than the 9' of the D9 - which is useful as the profiled wooden roof ( with etched clerestory side overlays) is correct for the narrower body. Nearly finished are two Brian Badger kits for a WCJS 42' arc roof brake/third and a 42' composite, plus a 50' brake/third from a set of Trevor Charlton etched zinc sides/ends.

The sun is out and so are the cockwombles. Here in Suffolk they have formed into three groups. The Paraders in convertibles - plus some young people in loudspeaker chariots - driving around slowly so that they may be seen/heard and admired. The Sightseers - enjoying the views but not always looking at the road. The VIPs - who need to drive fast because they have somewhere to get to.as soon as possible. I would have joined the paraders, but "A" couldn't get the MGB out of the garage owing to inconsiderate neighbours, and "B" no one would admire me anyway.

Bernard, thanks. The Martin Walter name rings a bell (I have recollections of a build plate with that name on it) , so I think it must have been a Dormobile. Jol

Taken in the days when going to Clacton was still thought to be a good idea for a holiday or day out. The Bedford on the left looks like a "personnel" van. I am not sure if it is a Dormobile or if that name only applied to the camper van version. My father had one for his work with two fore/aft slatted benched in the back. Three speed (I think) column shift and very sloppy steering.

Sandy, LRM absorbed the Geo. Norton range. I think that the LNWR coupling rod etch may be available although not listed on the website. The show stand has a number of items on one of the pegboards and I think I have seen them there. An enquiry though the LRM website will confifm if I am correct. John Redrup originally designed the LRM CT chassis in response to requsts from owners of K's and Proscale kits. It was hand drawn artwork and John possibly made the rods too deep for robustness. Jol

Stephen, LRM's proprietor does online ordering and payment via PayPay. Email him through the website advising what you want to purchase. He will then raise a PayPal invoice and, on payment, dispatch the goods. I think you will find that explained on the Introduction page at the bottom of side bar. LRM carriiages had three roof main profiles through the years. Starting with arc roof, there was then a period with "cove" roofs before finally moving to the high elliptical roofs.The four and six wheeler coaches were, with the exception of some special six wheel stock for the Birmingham area, all arc roof. Clerestory roofs were also used to a lesser degree, mainly on the more luxurious sleeping and dining carriages. http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/CarShape01.php Jol

Happy to have you have a different view, that is surely what forums are for, an exchange of opinions. Ref Oelikons, the patterns for the underframe castings have been produced by a very talented modeller. The non powered bogie is a standard coach unit so that leaves just the power bogie AFAIK. An enquiry via the LRM website will get a more definitive answer. Will a RTR version ever be produced? The preserved version could be scanned but is it sufficiently "commercial" compared to preserved steam locos, especially those in use and visible to a wider audience? Whether the introduction of the Bachmann model will increase sales for LRM of coach kits is open to question. For the LNWR period I am firmly of the view that the complex livery will put people off. The introduction of the Bachmann L&Y Tank initially killed sales of the LRM kits stone dead, but they have revived a little. Sales of the L&Y six wheelers did increase slightly but the two tone livery is a bit easier to do, especially if you ignore the lining of the lower panels.

There are already some serious LNWR layouts, including Penlan, Roger Stapleton's LNWR Steam Shed, Clarendon, Narrow Road, Geoff William's Aylesbury, Hope under Dinsmore (joint LNWR/GWR) and London Road that have appeared at exhibitions, plus others such as David Pennington's two layouts, Stanmore and Liverpool Lime Street, Nick Eastons's layout that appears in RM and others that we probably don't know about.. Painting complex carriage liveries is time consuming, but the results can be very satisfying and rewarding. The LNWR had a large carriage fleet, many of which lasted into LMS days. While a simple LMS livery would be practical, I wonder if the RTR manufacturers could reproduce the fully lined LNWR paint job without resorting to a lot of skilled hand lining and therefore at an acceptable price to the RTR collector. Undoubtedly painting and lining LNWR carriages will put a lot of people off, but if you just need a small rake to go with the one RTR LNWR loco now available, then perhaps it isn't to much to have a go at. No pain, no gain! And the PC pre printed side coach kits still appear on eBay from time to time.

Paul, I largely agree with Coach's point of view although there probably are some exceptions to the rule. As a long time modeller of the LNWR, member and former Promotions Officer/Trustee of the LNWR Society and part time assistant to one of the leading LNWR kit suppliers, the outbreak of pent up demand for the Bachmann Coal Tank comes as something of a shock. Either there are a lot of closet LNWR modellers out there or, as I suspect and I think Coach was alluding to, all this sudden interest in an unusual and attractive model is simply for it's own sake and nothing more. I am sure that many who have bought the Coal Tank are eagerly looking forward to Rapido's Stirling Single or any other "unusual" model that comes along. What this thread does do, for me at least, is further highlight the different approach between those that choose to model a particular era, location or railway company and those whose modelling is solely driven by what the RTR manufacturers choose to make. Unless you are willing to have a go at doing some kit building, then buying the Bachmann Coal Tank in LNWR condition means you have a solitary loco to run on your layout, without any matching stock. The easiest answer - but I suspect too far for some - would be to build a LRM or Mousa Brake van and then run some RTR POW wagons with it. The Ratio carriage kits are the cheapest LNWR carriage kits on the market, but how many people are willing to have a go at the carriage LNWR livery if they baulk at the idea of adding some Fox transfers to the Coal Tank to create a lined version and would rather hope/wait for Bachmann to do it? Jol

For those who really want to model the LNWR and for who spending the same on several coaches and wagons as a loco doesn't present a problem, there is a lot available for the "model maker". Wizard/51L, Stevenson Carriages, David Geen, London Road Models, Ratio and others make coach kits. Mousa Models, David Geen, LRM, Ratio and others make wagon, van and brake van kits., There are signal boxes, signals, station buildings components, etc. from a variety of sources. However, if your modelling is limited to RTR and RTP items, then you are - with the exception of the Bachmann Coal Tank and their inaccurate signal box, very much in a wilderness.

Interesting number plate, TLB666. Terrifyingly Large Breasts and the "Number of the Beast" (also known as the Sign of the Devil). Somehow a North American culture comes to mind.

Now available on eBay; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332188423124?ul_noapp=true http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192163002108?ul_noapp=true http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182536777463?ul_noapp=true

Sandy, have you tried an enquiry through the LNWR Society? I have had a quick search but nothing suitable turned up but an enquiry through the forum might work. I have a scanned GA of the 2500 gallon tender but the quality is too poor to work out what is what for the details of the scoop mechanism. Jol

I've scanned this page from the Precursor instructions. Basically the front of the frames (which the bogie supports) are split from the main about the position of the front steps (so hiding the join). They are pivoted to the main frames near to the leading coupled axle position. The whole of the front end of the frames and bogie can therefore swing in an arc. Parts 2, 13, 14, 15 and 16 are the front frames and spacers. Parts 11, 17, 18 and 19 are the main frames and spacers. Part 16 pivots (swivels) on part 17. This arrangement was used by Brassmasters in a Precursor Tank chassis but they didn't get around to producing the body kit. Independently, LRM produced a body kit and initially used the BM chassis. However, this became to expensive so a new LRM chassis was designed, with a sprung bogie and rear radial truck. This photo shows my Precursor Tank with the original BM chassis. You can just see the split in the frames, inboard of the front steps.

The Coal Tank was simply a tank engine version of the 17" Goods. So the wheels and wheelbase would be correct. Whether Bachmann used the space in the side tanks to accommodate the mechanism is the question . This photo shows a 17" Goods built from a M&L kit some years ago, coupled to a LRM tender. There isn't much room in the boiler/firebox so this P4 version is powered by a Mashima 1224 driving the back axle and inclined up into the firebox, leaving the space under the boiler free. This white metal kit is no longer available AFAIK. I think it may have become part of the Alan Gibson range but isn't shown in their price list. LRM do an etched n/s kit.

A 17" Goods 0-6-0, a.k.a. a Coal Engine, would be even better. The Coal Tanks tended to be allocated for passenger workings as the loco's vacuum brake system wasn't very efficient. The 17" Goods were never vac. fitted and were a true goods loco. Besides, since the introduction of the Bachmann model, every Thomas, Richard and Harold will have a Coal Tank