Jub45565

Sorry for the slight delay - partially due to the nice weather, and partially due to starting a new topic (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99883-ilkley-locomotive-shed-4mm-p4-1950s/) but I am keen to keep the momentum up with this build before another distraction appears! It has been a really enjoyable build so far though. I took the loco up to the Glevum P4 group last Tuesday, and Morgan kindly showed me how to sort out the cab sides above the doors, with the use of a handy wagon axle. This left the soldered corners with a bit of a droop, so I have continued with one of these, and am happy that I have improved it, so will have a go at the other... The tackled side: The second side to tackle - still a bit droopy: Another thing Morgan spotted was that the splashers both had a lean on the go. I hadnt spotted this as (my excuse, anyway:) it wasnt as noticeable before the tanks were fitted, and I hadnt closely examined them since. Morgan did share a good method to do these though, by soldering a cross member between the two to get the sides square, and this can be left in while (re)fitting the tops and then removed at the end - keeping it all square. I've done the first bit...

Thanks John - googling that unsurprisingly came up with another RMWeb Ilkley topic - & the answer of December 1976. Thanks for the lead.

Oh, and while I have kept a Fairburn length between the turntable and the first point, I have all but lost the spur beyond the turntable. This had a water tower next to it, but I don't know whether locos ran up there to take on water, or whether they did that in the station platform roads? I havent as yet found any photos of the water tower, or any water cranes in the loco shed area.

So, I've had a quick play in templot, and these are the results: The templot version was made purposely over length at both ends to allow me to play with the location of the turntable, and see how everything fitted. 2 of the follow photos are now quite small after cropping the largest length to 800, I will have another go if they are really feeble on screen... The marker pen lines are the overall 6' length, loco shed outline, pits, off scene connection to the mainline, and the board joint. A nice pair of 3' boards would not be impossible - none of the moving point parts are over the joint, but it would be quite messy - however moving it would create a set of boards 1 of which would be 2'4.5" and the other 3'7.5" - something for me to ponder over... As sketched, the pits outside the shed are fractionally over 1'. while the shed is fractionally under 1'. Track spacings need sorting out - currently the 2 shed roads are at 45mm centres, and if the track plan of the prototype can be followed I need 70mm. I need room for a yard lamp outside the shed! The 2 coaling roads are also far too close together to get the coaling stage in. There are a few options of how I could fix this... a. - There is a bit of slack before the point I could remove, and make tighter curves into and out of those stabling roads. b - cut it down to 1 coaling road. I'm not sure how I would do this without altering the look somewhat - either the double sided coaling stage would be modified to be single sided, or would be between the coaling road and the shed road. c - take the coaling roads back much closer to the turntable, and convert the first point off the turntable into a 3 way. My line of attack in order of preference is 1, c, b... Currently the prints outs have been on landscape A3 taped together, so the overall width is 16.5"

Thanks Alastair - I hadn't seen that shed. To my eyes unfortunately it isn't quite close enough, in that the detail above the doors, and the double sets of windows down the side, do stand out. However for £5 it could be a useful 'short term' (!) prop to set the scene. I have come across Edmund Kinder's layout Grisedale, both via his website and on here - his shed is based on Hellifield but very much in the theme I am after, and he has very kindly supplied me with some very useful drawings and photos of the build.

Thanks Tim - hopefully this will be relatively quickly progressed - but time will tell!

A new purchase for £4.30 including postage was the following book, which has several good photos of the shed area: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1871944066?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 This, alongside the section in LMS Engine sheds volume 2 (ex-Midland), are the most useful references I have. The only thing for which I am lacking any photo of now is the water tower which stood by the turntable. I have also found another purveyor of 50' Cowans & Sheldon turntables, so will need to decide whether to go for this or the London Road Models version: http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/4mm_scale_00_EM_P4.htm

A bit more info: A – double track main line, Ilkley station off stage on the left hand side. B – 50 foot turntable – as in post 1 I think a kit is available for this. C – 2 road brick engine shed, photo linked in post 1. Pits both inside and out the front. Not aware of anything on the market suitable. D – 2 coaling roads E - headshunt F – Crossover feeding in from the mainline. The siding continues on and was to supply the brewery, though a 1934 map shows this as being disused which unfortunately rules out a bit of shunting appropriate wagons in and out! Points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 These are located as per the prototype. My plan would be to move point 3 to feed off between 1 and 2 rather than 1 and 4. This way points 4 and 5 move left and help bring the overall dimensions within a 6 foot length. The 2 shed roads would feed out through the backscene, but I would want the headsunt ( E ) fully within the scenic area. Undecided whether any, either or both of the main running lines would be included – I need to see what it all looks like in Templot. This scheme does mean the sand dryer etc would be off stage, but I think I can handle that without ruining the look. That would be preferable to overly compressing everything and bringing it forward. I’m not sure whether I would run the coaling roads off stage or just truncate them early – moving the coaling stage a bit forward of the shed to compensate.

I’ve been faffling around with P4 for several years now, & still don’t have much ‘finished’. This is mainly due to the lack of a layout to kick me into getting things over those final hurdles. I did at one stage have a bit of a test track going on, but I didn’t have anywhere to house it at 10ft long and having to put it up and down each time just meant I didn’t progress with it. My current thoughts were kickstarted by a topic on the Scalefour society forum where, last summer, the Bristol group had aims to encourage people to model a 4ft x 18 inch standalone layout (labelled the GOYA project) – and I wondered whether I could find something suitable to fit the bill… this is slightly larger. Ilkley shed would really need a minimum of 10 foot to do ‘properly’, but I think I can make a reasonable representation within 6ft x 18inches. I would do this across 2 3ft x 18inch boards, though I do have an alcove available in which it could ‘permanently’ live. 6 foot in my mind is too big for a single board, and having the join would also allow me to experiment with detailing and scenery across a board joint. (While Keighley or Manningham sheds would be more suitable for the stock I am building, Ilkley looks far more operationally interesting within the space I have available – and at the end of the day all were under the 55F umbrella after 1957). It also looks like Gordon A has already had 3ft x 18 inch laser cut boards produced locally, so I will pick his brains about this next Tuesday!: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72708-laser-cut-baseboards/ Wikipedia tells me that the turntable at Ilkley was 50’, and LRM have a Cowans Sheldon 50’ offering. It was a Cowans Sheldon product that was installed at Garsdale/Hawes junction, so I am assuming the Ilkley one to have been from the same source, though I have not been able to clarify that as yet. There is a photo of it here: http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/historic/fws083.jpg Comparing photos of the Garsdale one to Ilkley they look to have the same family resemblance. Albeit looking at photos of the Garsdale one in its current location at Keighley as it is rather easier to look at without a wall of sleepers surrounding it! Also needed would be the locomotive shed itself… As this would be ‘in the style of’ rather than an exact replica of Ilkley, I would be happy to compromise on a similar building (if not exactly the same) if one was available. Having looked at the Hornby and Bachmann resin offerings, and townstreet casting, I cannot see anything close so would have to attack plastikard sheeting for this I think. http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/historic/fws073.jpg The full length of the shed would not be modelled – probably only about 1 foot, though I need to have a play and see quite how I can joggle things to fit while keeping the atmosphere/theme looking ok. I will have a play around in Templot (sometime soon hopefully :-S) to clarify whether what I am thinking will actually fit in the footprint. The only thing that I don’t think I can incorporate into this would be any test sample of flat bottom track. It partially depends on whether I can fit in half the mainline across the front/back, though even so Ilkley was not flat bottomed until well after the shed closed in 1959. This project would also really cry out for a Stanier 3P 2-6-2, of which the only kit I am aware is the Nucast one though according to Sherwood models website they are not currently available (Nucast was the small boiler, and I've seen photos of both types in the mid 50s in Ilkley so depending on the quality (overall dimensional accuracy mainly) the Nucast kit might be a reasonable starting point. I need to crack on and finish my lemon 0-4-4 first though!! I will go through my library and put up a bit of a bibliography so that if anyone is aware of any useful tome they will be able to see what I already have... I was going to wait before posting this as a new topic, but this seems long enough already for an initial post so I have decided to unleash it!

I have now assembled all 4 hornblocks and done some measuring. These locos had an 8' wheelbase, and the etch measures correctly at 32mm. There are the 2 half etch points for the twin beam arrangement, 1 of which is at axle centre height so can be used as a datum. My Brassmasters hornblocks with handrail knobs fitted is 2mm from axle centre to handrail knob centre. From the maths Bill gave earlier (30% of wheelbase outside the axle), the outer anchor points therefore go at 25.6mm from the centreline, and with 2mm axle to handrail knob the anchors (all 3) should be 1.5mm above the axle centreline. I think all this is correct, so will mark out the points, but not drill anything tonight in case someone spots an error in the above!

Sorry I've been quiet - I've been floating around Warwickshire for a week. You may have a point Peter, but the Brassmasters block was pretty easy to file down. It also wasn't just the size of the knob but also the meat available on the hornblock outside the flange but below the edge available to drill. That all sounds a bit innuendo bingoey when re-reading, but nevermind...

Then Mr Ivatt came along & aced it. That version was then tweaked by Riddles as the standard 2, & we're back with Mr Edge for that too ;-)

Hi Richard, The LRM one, by the sound of it, is not what you want: However, the Brassmasters one supplied in their 4F kit looks to be the part: (For clarity, the lost wax casting is supplied with the London Road Models 3F kit, while the 2 white metal parts in the bag are part of the Brassmasters 4F casting set). I hope/presume there is an etched tag somewhere for the top, alongside the 2 whitemetal castings. Unfortunately, this being the case, I can't see Brassmasters selling them as a spare part as the castings will be ordered as a pack and the etch in the middle of a sheet (but it may be worth asking, it is possible they have one lying around from a test build - bar the below). My Brassmasters kit (as I'm sure most are ;-)) is still complete in its box, and until I crack on with it myself I'd like to leave it that way for now... & also the base is common to both types of safety valve, so even if someone else could give away the Ramsbottom bit they would have used the base with the Ross pop's. Hopefully Bachmann will do it for you!

How about London Road? I can't see loco fittings as a section on the website, but the exhibition stand usually has such things so might be worth emailing them to ask? Don't quote me on Ramsbottom safety valves themselves, as it isnt something I use - bit early for my period. Thinking of which, I have an LRM 3F kit at home so will have a look what was supplied with that and let you know/PM you a photo if appropriate.

Yes, he is definitely one of the small traders in the 'excellent products, poor customer service' category. If it is one of his standard product line items that you are after, I think EDM (http://www.ngtrains.com/Pages/Decals/EDM_Decals/edm_decals.html) would be the best bet. As noted on the EDM transfers page: EDM Models has recently come to an arrangement with Blackham Transfers which should, over time, see the range of decals offered become more easily available from stock through us allowing Blackham to concentrate on bulk production. It will take quite a time for the range we hold to grow as there is a considerable capital outlay required to hold stock of these transfers. Initially we will concentrate on the Festiniog Railway transfers that go with the kits we produce. Therefore the exact item you want may not be in EDM stock yet, but if people let them know what they want it will be easier to prioritise which items to get sorted sooner rather than later. HTH,

Colin, on 07 Mar 2015 - 21:31, said: I'm awaiting this one with interest too - I'm not reading too much into the picture Bachmann have used still have splasher beading, but they have still called it a 'Midland' 4F in the description. I'm sure there won't be any real schoolboy errors though. I currently have a Brassmasters kit lined up for 44055, but if they do 44044 correctly then I am not doubt going to take the easy way out and go down the Bachmann/Brassmasters easi-chas route. It's a shame it is late crest and weathered (44055 didn't get a late crest til relatively late on, in my timeframe at least) but it will still be a much easier starting point if the base model is correct.

Well 1 hornblock has been modified for CSB, and so far so good! First I filed off the lip, as there isnt enough 'meat' between the edge of the lip and the top edge of the hornblock to drill out for the handrail knob. Brassmasters/Comet hornblocks are handed, in that the slot for the frames is offset so as to allow different amounts of sideplay on the axle. As this is a 4 coupled loco, I don't feel the need for much sideplay, so am putting the 'fat' side of the hornblock on the outside of the frames, and so have drilled for and fitted the handrail knob from the 'thin' side. I used (part of) a lacemaking pin to hold the handrail knob in the correct orientation while I soldered it in place.

I was in Vegas recently, and the woman on the monorail till had overheard some British women the previous day talking about putting money 'in the kitty'. She was quite confused... Apparently, the Americans are aware of the concept of 'chipping in' (as in for that specific set of tickets everyone puts the money together to pay) but they don't have a concept of all throwing in money to a central fund that covers everything for everyone until the next topup is required...

Thanks Bill. I haven't yet soldered up the frames - they've just been clamped in the frame jig but taken no further as yet, so the only thing that isnt there is the vertical axle centreline - but I have the cutouts still so can easily see where that was. Thanks for the dimensions. I'll have a look and see where that puts them.

There was me thinking that procrastination was an art form I quite agree that the bogie should take its fair share of the weight - but I'm not quite sure how to go about working out CSB hanger points. I could take the bogie pivot point as effectively a third axle, but that would mean the maths would be worked out on having the bogie pivot hanging off the CSB itself, which I wouldnt want to do. With the body built as far as it is, it would be possible to add weight to it and work out where the actual centre of mass is going to be, but as I say the question is how to remove the effects of the bogie from the CSB calculations. It is interesting to see your comment on the bogie sideframes Bill - I too thought that having both free would make more sense, and surely the downforce from the spring would keep the main frame level. The boiler as supplied is solid (only full diameter to just behind the tank fronts, and is semicircular backwards from there) but I have already drilled a bit of an opening, and intend to carefully continue with this to allow some weight to be packed in.

Thanks Bill - that is a neat solution. I am definitely sold on the CSB principle, but have only implemented it on tenders so far (1 of which is a complete loco - albeit a Hornby based 4F, with a Dave Franks chassis under a Comet tender), a second Dave Franks tender, and 2 Brassmasters Easi-chas tenders. I might yet get the 3F pickups sorted tonight, but I digress... I would be best off cutting my teeth on a fairly well balanced loco (my plan is an Ivatt tank), while the 0-4-4 is always going to end up back heavy - especially with the resin boiler - and worrying about how the trailing bogie works with the springing would, I think, be a nightmare for a first attempt at sorting out CSB anchor points.

I can understand the disappointment, but as others have said it is a bit of a first world problem. For a start, if you can afford £233 over 18 months then £300 over 48 months is surely far easier to save for :-) Lets compare apples with apples. We have effectively just had the next generation Trident 'announced'. Lets see when they float (or sink, or whatever they do :-S). If you already have the full design pack ready to go it isnt the same. For example, have we seen the aircraft carriers yet? When were they announced? Edited to reapply the quote box...

Good point. I've just looked at the high level csb bits I have. I only have the 2mm ones, but looking at the 1/8'' blocks I would guess that the csb adapter wouldn't be compatible with the BMW blocks. I could use the HL blocks themselves - but it is far too easy to misalign something as it is without adding more variables!

I agree in principle, and that would do the trick as the wheelsets would be tied together by the coupling rods anyway. I can't readily think of a way of making the pivot beam removable though, without having that connected via screws or something which would be visible from outside the frames? I hope I'm not coming across as negative - it probably is in text! - but it is actually an interesting challenge to come up with a functional yet clean/paint/repairable solution! Plenty of time to sort it all out in my mind before the wheelsets arrive :-)

That is actually pushing me towards springing though, as with the beams holding the axles in (rather than just resting on the top) it prevents the wheels from being dropped out of the chassis.