corneliuslundie

I think the above posters have really put their fingers on it. We all want to be better at what we are doing, whether it be track laying, figure painting, loco building or timetable creation. And we look to those who have worked hard to get to that position in a particular area for advice, inspiration and encouragement. This is not elitism. It's self improvement. In answer briefly to Corbs, I want my models to be as accurate as possible but I feel that if you model an era which has been extensively recorded you risk feeling that, as soon as you create something, someone will produce evidence that what you thought was correct, and had researched for ages, in fact isn't quite correct. One interesting example is those two pictures above of the K1 cab window - which is "correct"? Which leads me to a final comment. Think about the amount of research involved in producing models to the standard Tony achieves. But let's get back to drooling over Tony's models and learning from them. Jonathan

Can I take the thread in a slightly different direction? If no-one has any views, so be it but I shall be interested to hear Tony's thoughts. It is sometimes said that modelling the pre-Grouping railway is much more difficult than modelling the more recent scene, such as Tony's early post -Nationalisation era. But is this true? I think that the period Tony is modelling is the most difficult of all. If I build an 1870s Mid Wales Railway wagon there is one drawing available and no photos. If Tony builds a model of a late LNER carriage in BR livery there are almost certainly two or three drawings, dozens of photos and plenty of people with memories. So the slightest "error" will be noticed and commented on - "That carriage was maroon that week, not blood and custard"; "the generator is slightly too far inboard"; "They didn't lay the tablecloths in the restaurant car until after Grantham on the down journey on the xxx train" etc. My question is whether there is perhaps too much information available to make modelling enjoyable, because there is always the thought that there is one small fact one was not aware of. I have no such problems with Tony's superb models as I have a job telling a Thompson carriage from a Gresley one or one variant of O4 from another. But I still find Tony's modelling very convincing because of its overall quality and fidelity - perhaps in this case ignorance is bliss. So in modelling can too much information be a bad thing? Jonathan

I can't help feel that we have been here before. As has been said we are all different, modelling different railways with different skill levels in different scales and with different aims - building, operating, just owning etc. It is enlightening, I think, to look at the thread on layouts that have influenced individuals and notice that many of them were layouts which were not perfect visually but which could be operated properly as railways. A model railway, for me, is not just a baseboard with some track, scenery and vehicles. It is a representation of a piece of the world with a railway which looks when operated like the real thing looks/ed. In a way how this is achieved in the physical sense of what was bought or made by whom is immaterial. If it does not convince me when operated it is not a good model. Tony (and friends) have a layout which does convince me in photos. Whether it would convince me in the "flesh" I shan't know until I am in a position to take up Tony's very generous offer to visit him. So am I not a real modeller because I don't build locos (though even after previous disastrous efforts with Ks kits back in the 1970s I am about to try again) but I do scratch build wagons (wagons which no manufacturer is ever going to touch - I hope!)? Or is Tony not a real modeller because he builds locos but not (in general) wagons? There is one thing I would point out, though. The financial risk of scratch building a wagon and making a mess of it is a lot less than for a loco. So back to those Cambrian Railways timber wagons. Jonathan

On the only occasion when I have been on a train which caught fire and had to be evacuated it was DOO on the Bedpan line at the time of the wrong sort of snow - which you may remember caused ventilation grilles to block and led to overheating and fires. I have never worked on the railway though I do have a fair idea of safety precautions in case of a failure, just through being interested. Anyway, the upshot was that the driver left his train (he didn't need to as far as I can remember) and with a good deal of smoke entering the passenger compartment passengers decided it was time to leave. It was me and two railway enthusiast friends with whom I usually travelled who detrained the passengers via the driver's door and ensured, with no little difficulty, that they did not wander across the fast lines or the down slow - as we didn;t know what action the driver had taken to protect the train. An HST was stopped opposite the failed train to pick up the passengers, and I helped quite a few to get on board, including a young lady neighbour who complained that I had caused her to damage her skirt! I seem to remember that the report on the accident was very critical of the driver. But this is not to indicate that I am a hero or anything. It underlines that things may not go according to the instructions for a variety of reasons, but also that sensible passengers can actually be of assistance in emergencies - though how a member of train staff would recognise a sensible passenger to recruit him./her is another question. Jonathan

No, Chris, I am not that old. Airfix kits were what I cut my teeth on. But I was a technical journalist for much of my career. And you need to build two as they usually carried long things such as tree trunks. Which prompts the memory that I recently saw the Kitmaster brand being used again. Now those were good kits. And to Alan, yes quite a bit of Cambrian material has recently been scanned and indexed by the HMRS drawings team, though they have tens if not hundreds of thousands still to do. Until recently the only timber wagon with Cambrian connections on the list was the Mid Wales one. Jonathan

Time for the weekly (!!!) update. As promised to ChrisN on his Traeth Mawr thread, this is the start of a blow-by-blow account of building a pair of Cambrian Railways timber wagons. I do not claim to be an expert on building wagons or on the wagons of the Cambrian Railways, but I hope this thread will show that if I can do it so can you. There is no magic involved. There are however some commercial components involved. After many years I have a good collection of bits and pieces waiting to be used, including various types of wagon springs, axleboxes, buffers, brakes (especially the spares from Slaters PO wagons), as well as a pretty complete set of the plastic strip available from Evergreen and most available thicknesses of plastic sheet. A word of advice here. Often we want sheet that is not one of the standard sizes (5, 10, 15, 20, 40, 60, 80 thou). So keep a look out for sheet that is some way off its nominal measurement. I have some 40 thou sheet that is really about 35 thou and some that is about 45 thou. What I don’t have is much sheet or strip metal as it is not my favourite material. For this project I happened to have some 1mm square brass rod (from Eileen’s Emporium) which is more or less suitable for the stanchions, and a motely selection of brass sheet from a mixed pack I bought many years ago at an exhibition. So there are the bought in components for this project: 8 pinpoint bearings (not sure of the make, as I buy them in bulk, usually from Alan Gibson) 4 pairs of 8-spoke 12.5 mm diameter wheels (Alan Gibson) Two sets of W irons, also with some V hangers on the etches (D&S Models) 8 Attocks grease axleboxes (not sure of the source but they seemed closest to those in the drawing) 8 wagon springs (51L wagons springs, the closest I could find though they have one leaf too few) 8 buffers (51L Cambrian type) 2 brake lever/guide etches (51L type G – I can’t use anything from my spares box because these wagons have both brake levers the same end) Washer plate etches (spares from MJT W-iron etches) 4 couplings (Sprat & Winkle) The first photo shows these along with the brakes from some kit or another (not Slaters), which look suitable for this non-standard wheelbase. In addition I shall use some 1mm square brass rod for the stanchions, various thicknesses of plastic sheet, some 10thou by 80 thou plastic strip and some 10 thou square plastic rod to produce the following components: 4 solebars 12in by 4 5/8 in by 14ft 2in (4 x 1½ x 56 2/3 mm) 4 buffer beams 18in by 5in by 7ft 5in (6 x 1 2/3 x 29 2/3 mm) 4 side rails 9½in by 3½in by 14ft 2in (3 1/6 x 1 1/6 x 56 2/3 mm) 2 floors 6ft 10in by 2½in by 14ft 2in (27 1/3 x 5/6 x 56 2/3 mm, made up of 1/3 mm brass sheet with 20 thou plastic sheet bonded) Central baulks under bolsters 2ft by 6in by 6ft 10in (8 x 2 x 27 1/3 mm, but see later) 4 coupling plates 14in by 8 in (4 2/3 x 2 2/3 mm by 10 thou) 8 corner plates 2ft 3in by 9in (9 x 3 mm by 10 thou) 2 bolsters 1ft by 10in by 7ft 5in (4 x 3 1/3 x 29 2/3 mm) In some cases two thicknesses of plastic will be laminated together. The second photo shows these pieces cut out, along with, at the bottom of the photo, the pieces of wire and plastic needed for mounting the couplings, and some rather bent 10thou square rod. Missing are the capping strips as I shall cut these to fit rather than measure. Tools are very basic: a cutting mat, a sharp craft knife and another with a rather blunt blade, a small saw blade, a selection of small files, a selection of small drills (0.5mm and 2mm used most often), a steel rule (mine happens to be a type rule left from working days, as it has a nice matt finish), a small, old brush for solvent, some MEK and some superglue. And good lighting. I am working from a drawing obtained from the HMRS. It is dated 1901 and was produced by the Cambrian Railways, so it may represent the wagons as built – though there are plenty of cases where the shop floor didn’t follow exactly what was on the drawing, knowing full well that it wouldn’t work. As I have no photos at present I shall follow the drawing as far as possible. The drawing claims to be 1 inch to the foot, but it is smaller than that, so one of my first jobs was to produce a scale I could measure off to find actual dimensions. I chose the overall wagon length (15ft on the prototype) and marked this distance on a line drawn on a sheet of A4 paper. I then used basic geometry to divide this into 15 1ft lengths and the first foot into four 3in distances. Anything smaller than this I will estimate by eye. Next time, I will illustrate the creation of the basic shell, not at all difficult. I shall no doubt find that some of the pieces I cut out are not quite square and will have to make replacements, but that seems to be par for the course with me. I have also been working on completing two other vehicles, the aforementioned ex-LSWR cattle wagon and a GWR V16 van. Both are now at the lettering stage so photos next week, along with some progress on the timber wagons. I am still waiting for some parts from the EMGS for the loco kit and have not sorted out my power supply so no testing of the layout wiring yet, but hope springs eternal. Jonathan

There was one at Towyn too, so definitely one at Traeth Mawr.. And rather off piste, I was reading in bed this morning and came across a reference to Traeth Mawr. Apart from the fact that it was not a railway book, I am giving no more clues yet as to where I found the reference. Jonathan

Though it won't give you anything on pointwork, HM Inspectors' reports prior to opening give a lot of information about rail type and weight, sleeper size and spacing and use of fishplates.

It was Spiers and Pond. They had a total of 17 refreshment rooms on the Cambrian (Caersws. The Cambrian Railways village (Brian Poole, Oakwood Press) though the list inexplicably misses out Traeth Mawr. You may well find that book worth reading not for the Caersws bits but for the general feel of the railway and for some nice staff photos. There was also an article in Welsh Railways Archive about the women who worked on the Cambrian in the Upper Severn Valley during the second world war (Vol 5 no 7) and there have been a few other articles about families or individuals who worked on the Cambrian at Dolwen and Trefeinon for example. Jonathan

How about a landslip? I envisage an end to end layout with a fiddle yard leading to a through station. Beyond the station there is a landslip in a cutting so the trains can't go any further. So no need for another fiddle yard but lots of extra train movements at a station not designed for them, plus engineering trains taking spoil away and bringing equipment and materials for the repairs. And of course the lines of passengers waiting for the rail replacement buses which have got caught in a traffic jam somewhere and are running hours late.

The Cambrian was not exactly rich, and I wonder if the GWR was more generous with staff (initially to handle more traffic) until the decline in traffic set in - different dates in different areas depending on local roads and whether there was a competing bus service (possibly run by the GWR). Thinking about that photo of LLanbrynmair, was that the total staff other than the signalmen and the porter who was on the other turn? But I assume Llanbrynmair is a quieter station than Traeth Mawr. And might Traeth Mawr have had more staff drafted in during the summer to deal with holiday traffic? Anyway, Rule 1 applies, and you do a very nice job painting figures. Jonathan

I suspect those numbers did include signalmen, possibly for your station one full signalman and one porter/signalman. If it is an exchange siding for the slates I wonder if the slate quarry might employ whoever transfers the slates to standard gauge. Apart from anything else, I am not sure the railway company would want the responsibility for dealing with a fragile cargo like slates. Is there any evidence what happened with the Plynlimon & Hafan exchange siding (I know it wasn't operational for long) as it is probably more like yours than Minffordd or Portmadoc? I'll see if there is anything in the book I have about the line, though there are others I think. Ticket inspectors would not be attached to small stations but might well change trains there and be hanging around on the platform. If there is a goods shed with an office then it would need a clerk. If there isn't enough goods traffic to justify a goods shed then the paperwork would have been done in the main office and there might well not have been a separate goods clerk. Let's see. As a minimum you would need the stationmaster plus an early turn and late turn minion to sell and collect tickets, light and tend the waiting room and other fires, clean the station daily, and keep the books up to date; two individuals to man the signalbox; someone to do deliveries (who might be one of the minions mentioned above and might well use a barrow); and someone in the goods yard. How many of these double up and how many of the positions need two or more people will depend on how busy the station is. I assume there is no refreshment room (not impossible as Moat Lane had one) in which case you need a couple of young ladies plus their manager (male or female but definitely smartly dressed) who may work for a catering company rather than the railway. Of course some of these staff would be present but not visible as they would be inside buildings. Although not directly applicable to the Cambrian, quite a few of the line histories, especially GWR ones, have information on the staff at various dates, though from memory I can't remember too many from such an early date as 1895. Jonathan

Some other Cambrian wagons seem to have buffer stocks that are deeper than the solebar, including the timber wagon I am looking at at the moment. And I think that Dragon Models does a kit for a wagon very similar to the one a few posts above in 7mm. I came across a photo of a completed one on the web when searching for something else. Despite my having at least a dozen different types of buffer, I have none with square bases, so an order has gone off to Wizard Models, though I think even those will require a bit of attention with a file as the buffer bases in the photo above seem to be almost star shaped with the bolt holes in the points of the star (clear as mud?) Quarryscapes of this parish also does Cambrian wagon buffers, but the photos on his website are not good enough to tell quite what they look like. I spent some time this evenign assembling components for the timber wagons so there should be something to show on the Sarn thread next week. Jonathan

"Cwm Bach represents Welsh rugby in its glory days" You mean when I was at school! About right for the stock. I am a bit out of date (apart from the last match) as I was overseas for six years. but we had a Welsh pastor at our church in Harpenden and it got to the point where no-one mentioned rugby to him. I had high hopes that disastrous period was over, but now I'm not so sure. Bring back the days when any school in Wales with any claims to being a proper school had a former Rugby international for sports teacher. So perhaps some elated fans instead coming back from Twickenham. In those days they wouldn't necessarily have been dead drunk and they probably wouldn't have been carrying flags or wearing silly clothes. Jonathan

I notice that there are wooden brake blocks on the far side of the wagon. A pity we can't see the brake lever, though there is a guide, or in fact the way the brake works. At this period some wagons used what are termed "toggle" brakes, but I don't know about the Cambrian. I fancy building one or two, though I am gradually getting too many early wagons for my Rhymney Railway layout (still to be built); but they are fun. But first I must build a pair of ex-Cambrian timber wagons for Sarn. In view of Chris's question I shall try to remember to take photos as I go along as they are similar in structure to the Mid Wales Railway ones although a lot more modern. Jonathan

A friends thought that some people on RMWeb would like this photo: Apparently Aberdovey in the 1870s. Cambrian Railways but identified only on the plate. Jonathan

Yards, feet and inches - multiples of 12 and 3 Stones, pounds and ounces - multiples of 16 and 14 Time - multiples of 60 and 24 Chains - 22 Furlongs - 8 Quarters - 4 I could go on . . . By getting used to these you learn that there are all sorts of bases that can be used for counting. This has been lost with the switch to metric where the only factors are 2 and 5. I don't think it is just using calculators that have caused a drop in ability in mental arithmetic. And in modelling, even after we convert prototype feet to model millimeters we still mix them by using plastic strip and the like measured in thous - 10 thou - 0.25mm - 3/4 inch in 4mm/ft, can't do the sum in my head for 7mm! Back on topic, I like the retaining wall but was sad when you removed the white streaks completely. And the platform is looking good. Jonathan.

There has been a bit of a debate on GN main line reporting numbers somewhere on RMWeb recently. I didn't take much notice of the details as it is a bit remote from South or Mid Wales, but one thing I do remember was that there was one rule for trains purely on the main line and another for those which crossed regional boundaries; also that the codes changed at some point in the late 1950s. It might have been on one of the threads where photographers put up their photos. There are two I look at regularly and both are near the top of the list in the Prototype discussions section as they have both posted new photos today (one recently posted photos of High Dyke, so it may have been in his thread). Yes, 1B66 or 2B66 for Cambridge, at least in the 1970s. Jonathan

Aren't there supposed to be some quite long tunnels in south London which were built just before or during World War 2 and used as munitions factories? They were never linked up and made into a Tube line, if I remember. Or was that just a fairytale?

When you suggested the chimney being demolished I envisaged something like the restaurant at the end of the universe, wind it back each night and do it again each day.

Thanks and well done. My guess of MAP was wrong then. I wonder if it was something like "Manufacturing and Production"?

I am pretty sure the MAP was Model & Allied Press but this is after the period of my detailed records so I cannot check. However, the exhibition trains fleet included the following restaurant vehicles: S99631 ex RUO S1010 built York, converted 1979 S99641 ex RUO E1036 converted to lot 30971, 1981 S99642 ex RUO E1040 ditto S99645 ex RBR S1765 built Pressed Steel, 1962 S99646 ex RBR S1766 ditto but no RBs so if it is an RB it may have been commandeered for this train. The Trainex/Exhibitions on the Move base was actually at Wimborne, also the base I think of an exhibition contracting company under the same ownership which did the fotouts.. I can also give you the useless fact that at least some of the MAP vehicles had air conditioning from Hushon. I wrote two articles on exhibition trains in the 1970s which were published in The HMRS Journal. My boss had previously run Trainex and gave me his records. Jonathan

Not as much progress as I had hoped, in fact not much at all on Sarn. As soon as I had completed the last post I realised that I hadn't painted the buffers of the wagons, so I decided to see how many of my recently completed or "in-progress" wagons had unpainted buffers. This was the result a little while later, all with gunmetal buffers. Eventually after nearly four weeks, the body kit arrived for ex-Cambrian 1196 from Gem. An enormous box, as shown below, inside which was a much smaller plastic box, which can be seen sitting on top of the cardboard one. Inside this in turn were the two rather small tissue wrapped packages sitting on top! The other bits and pieces in front of the boxes are all part of the project. I still need some EMGS split axles and insulated frame spacers, and a motor which will be from High Level. I shall probably get another gearbox to go with it as then I can sure they are designed to go together. Meanwhile, I got out a project which has been on-going for some time: two Mid Wales Railway timber wagons. When I got this drawing from the HMRS it was the only Cambrian drawing available of a timber wagon, though there are now some more and I hope to pick up a much more modern one tomorrow to build for Sarn. The MWR ones are really far too early for Sarn as they would have been 60 years old in the 1930s, so they may turn up eventually on Nantcwmddu. There is no lettering because no-one knows what it was and the colour is also a guess as the best information I can come by suggests that they were probably grey. In fact at that period there was probably nothing except a cast number plate anyway. In due course they will be heavily weathered to suit some hard worked wagons 30 years old. The photo for these is in the 19th century wagons thread under Pre-Grouping Modelling as I said some time ago I would put one up when they were finished. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92171-modelling-19th-and-century-wagons-in-4mm-mwr-timber-wagons/page-2 I got to the Stafford show, and very good it was, but I couldn't get the bridge rectifiers I was looking for for my power pack so I shall have to resort to mail order. In the meantime no further progress on testing the track. I have identified the other two houses I want to build, and hope to start them shortly. I am currently putting together an ABS kit for a GWR V16 van. Initially it will be lettered for the Rhymney Railway (which had some built for it by the GWR) to be photographed, but it will then change identity to a GWR one as it is too modern for Cwmnantddu. I also have several other wagon kits to complete as well as a couple of pregrouping wagons. And I really must get on with that ex-LSWR cattle wagon for Sarn. Thanks for looking in. See you again in a couple of weeks.

The problem with locos is that what one really needs for later periods is a 2021 tank and no-one makes one.

Rick (C C) Green was writing a series of books about the coast lines of the Cambrian Railways but his last volume covering your area never got finished. The ones that I know about are: The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 1: Machynlleth to Aberystwyth including a general history of the Aberystwyth & Welsh Coast Railway, Wild Swan, 1993, ISBN 978-1874103295 The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 2: Dovey Junction to Barmouth Junction and the Dolgelley branch, Wild Swan, 1996, ISBN 978-1874103295 I have just discovered that he also wrote Cambrian Railways, 1859-1947, Specialist Marketing International, 1997, ISBN 9780711025080 He also did a Cambrian Railways album Vol 2 but that is in GWR days. Looking at e-bay etc they seem to command rather high prices. Thanks for the reminder of the discussion on numbering. I HAD forgotten. I can't remember about the other signals but I will keep an eye open. Somewhere I saw a description of the type of glass used for the villet glass so there must me more I haven't found this morning. PM to follow when I have got the scanner out. Jonathan