145 Squadron

Progress on the Maunsell buffet coach has been slow as I have struggled to find an acceptable way to amalgamate the Mousa Models brass sides with the Ex Kirk end doors and then to fit into the Hornby donor coach shell. The Ex Kirk side was cut in half, having marked the position to fit to the brass sides, then the top half cut off to allow the flush fitting of the windows. I had already soldered the door droplights into the other doors in the brass sides. The plastic ends were then glued onto the brass sides with Evo Stick, clamped and allowed to dry. As the Kirk sides only cover half the brass sides I cut up the Hornby coach side from the previous buffet conversion to provide support for the other half of the side. The Mousa Models sides for this coach are full height including the cant rail so joining to the Hornby coach is going to be interesting; to facilitate this join I have added a 40 thou X 1.5mm strip to the top of the side on the inside, using additional plastic supports where necessary. This strip also neatly fills the cant rail gap between the Kirk side and the Mousa side. The step between the two sides has been contoured with filler. It looks a bit of a mess but is quite sturdy once the glues have dried. No external fittings have been added to the sides yet. While waiting for the glue on the sides to dry I have made a start on the interior. I will have to sort through my stocks to find suitable seats but the tables will have to be scratch built from plasticard to suit. Tony

More progress on the two coach Bulleid 'R' set: Interior painted. This is far as I am going at the moment on this set; underframe painted, exterior details fitted - I will have to wait for a suitable day to paint the sides Whilst waiting to paint the sides of the Bulleid set I have made a start on the Maunsell dia 2666 buffet (the one Hornby are not making). Mousa Models sides above with a Hornby Maunsell corridor third as a donor. I also have a MM Maunsell dia 2007 to make (the one with the window ventilators) as the attached restaurant car. I have stripped the Hornby donor today (managed to save all the commode handles and most of the roof vents!). The big problem with these coaches is how to arrange the narrowed body section by the end doors; on the MM etch the door section is separate but I think trying to join the main body section with the tumbleholme and the door section with a vertical bend is going to be too difficult for my limited soldering skills. I have purchased some Ex-Kirk open second side mouildings to see if I can somehow use the end part of them to form the recessed door section. Tony

I have found that built as per instructions there is a lot of 'slop' in the Ratio SR steam bogie pivot although the detail is nice. Bachmann SR bogies are freely available as spares and although not as detailed as the Hornby ones (which are also difficult to find as spares) they are cheaper and in my experience very free running with metal wheels - these are now my standard bogie for self builds. Having just read the Hornby announcement in the February Railway Modeller I had not noticed until then that Hornby appear to be producing two diagrams of RFK, a 2651 and a 2656; the visible difference in the RM is the window ventilators and the size of the window to the right of the double doors. One will be in Southern livery and the other in BR livery. Why? Tony

Phil, You have had a layout to build in the meantime - looking good so far though. At least Hornby or Bachmann are not producing one ready to run (this year anyway). Thanks for all the info and help you gave me on this coach. Tony

This was my take on the Maunsell restaurant first, built 2009 - I think it uses Ratio bogies but is otherwise mainly the Colin Ashby (ex Kirk) kit. Interior was scratch built; the lamps are Peco bearings! Showing its age and a bit fragile now, particularly the glazing which I superglued as I had not yet discovered canopy glue. It will be interesting to see Hornby's take on this coach and should provide a good base to convert to the buffet which started this thread. Tony

Tony, Thanks for that info re the reservoirs - I made up a couple from plastic tube yesterday, but will bear in mind for future requirements. The roof tank mouldings are Southern Pride, cut to length. Tony

I see Bachmann have just announced this set in BR SR green in their 2018/9 programme - grrrr! Hopefully I will beat them in terms of having the finished article. The Ex Kirk sides have turned up to make a start on the Maunsell dia 2666 buffet so will try and finish the Bulleids to make a start on that coach next (hopefully Hornby are not going to announce that in their programme later today). Tony

Thank you Phil and others for your positive and helpful comments. I was not aware of the arrangement on Bachmann coach underframe, but in any case I have passed all mine on. Southern Pride include a plastic moulding for the Prestall cylinder but I have to confess I usually leave it off as it is not noticeable unless you are looking at the coach upside down. I note that others have made the 2' dia reservoir for their stock - the interesting thing to me is that having looked through some of my picture books and the internet for the preserved prototypes there seems to be several examples of the large reservoir on different types of coach, including the later built thirds; the use of the smaller reservoirs seems more restricted in BR days. It could be that the original reservoir was retained on earlier builds unless replacements were required due to corrosion or damage? Whilst I agree the smaller reservoirs are not really noticeable (although easy to fit and supplied from at least two different sources) the larger reservoir does notice as it is quite prominent between the battery box and V hanger on one side. I have made several before using plastic tube but it is much easier to just stick on the ready made ones! Another issue is the guards door handles on this stock; the drawings I have insist that there are two separate handles to the guards door on these coaches, whereas all the later pictures I can find show one continuous long handle - after I had drilled all the holes for two! Likewise the lower handle on the van doors seems to be missing on a lot of later photos. As ever, the use of prototype photos is essential (where available) and I usually find one for the stock I am building showing incorrect details on my model immediately after I have completed it! Probably for a lot of people this seem to be nit picking over small details, but I like to try and get the details as accurate as I can bearing in mind the amount of time I am spending on the build anyway. Tony

I have now finished the interiors for the Bulleid coaches, using Southern Pride seats and partitions with the rest from 20 thou plasticard. Sides have been cleaned up and holes drilled for door handles, commode handles and bump stops. Roof detail has now all been added, mainly using cast parts from MJT. Railstrips from micro strip. I have only added one rainstrip to each side (originally two) as by the early '60's - the period for these models - most Bulleids seem to have been recanvased with only one strip although there were of course exceptions. Underframe detailing started with the vacuum pipe added to the corridor side of both coaches. Next job is to add the underframe detail. I am always a little unsure on this as by this period all the Prestall brake cylinders were out of use and had been replaced by smaller cylinders on each side of the underframe with attendant reservoirs. However studying photos some coaches appear to have kept the original larger single reservoir and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to which prevailed on which sets. I have modelled both arrangements before but the larger reservoir is a pain as there is nothing (as far as I am aware) large enough available commercially and they have to be made up from scratch. Any help would be appreciated. Tony

Now the festivities are over, a bit more progress on the 2 coach Bulleid set: Having glued a strip of 5 thou plasticard along the midline of the donor coach (to support the more rounded Bulleid profile) I then promptly cut most of it off in making holes to accommodate the windows on the brass sides. I know many modellers would just cut a large rectangle out for the window recess but I found on these donors it left the cant rail plastic very weak as it is quite a soft material anyway. When happy I have enough gap to attach glazing material the brass sides are attached to the plastic donor with Evo Stick and secured with lining tape until thoroughly dried. the Evo Stick is great in that it actually melts the plastic of the donor coach side so provide you have properly cleaned up the brass overlay they will never come apart! In the above photo I have bushed the Bachmann bogies (having removed the coupling to accommodate the coach coupling mechanism. Southern Pride trusses have been attached to the underframe and a bottom edge added to the solebar from 5 thou plasticard. Plasticard floor blanks were cut out using the old interior moulding as a template, also marked out for fixing screws as these not only hold the interior in place but keep the sides attached to the underframe as well. Interior layout has been copied from the plans to the floor to aid building up the partitions. I now always check this drawing to the coach sides as it was not unknown to find a partition in a window frame of the coach later if not careful! The two basic coaches put together for a 'first fit'; one small but tedious job is to file a small bevel onto the top of all the doors; this is most noticeable on the prototype photos. the sides have not yet been cleaned up or any door furniture added. Next step is to build the interiors. I hope the description and pictures are helpful. Tony

Phil, The sides I used were 247 developments so the Bill Bedford ones may be more correct. I did not notice this when making the coaches but was aware that on these etchings the etched holes for the door handles were all the wrong height on the doors but decided I could live with that. I would describe myself as a model coach modifier and assembler and could not build a coach to the standard of the Hornby Maunsell's. If is was not for the specialist suppliers in this hobby such as Southern Pride, Comet (now Wizard), MJT, Kirk etc (usual disclaimer) and many others I would not be able to make any of these models. I started this thread as I had read comments from some contributors asking why Hornby or Bachmann had not produced catering vehicles or updated Bulleids for their southern layouts, particularly with the current plethora of good southern locos being produced. I have gained much from other members threads over the years, not only in coach construction (including your invaluable help with the cafeteria car) but for locos too. Most of my coaches have some error or omission in their construction but I endeavour to make some improvement, however small, each time I construct a new model and my hope is that I can help other to avoid some of those mistakes in their builds. Tony

Chris, I use RATP Service green ref 6231T in a 400ml spray can from Automotive Paint Supplies in Southampton. They also have units in Newbury and Aldershot I believe but you should be able to get similar at any auto paint supplier - I just went along and asked showing them a swatch painted with PP BRSR coach green and they mixed it on the spot. I generally use about 5 light coats over Halfords grey primer (etch primer on brass sides), each coat is touch (but don't!) dry after about 15 minutes which suits me as I have to spray outside. I have never been able to master an airbrush. Last can cost £12 but like Halfords it does not clog or spit (provided you take the usual care) and I can paint about 5-6 coaches per can. Hope that helps Tony

Mike That info is very helpful; I am seeing my friend tomorrow so will ask him if he wants me to alter the coach I have made for him. That said these catering coaches do seem to be a minefield in that no two seem to be necessarily the same, or that they remained in the same condition at any given point in time. As Phil has pointed out maybe the ones used on the Western Section had the bottom boards removed due to the third rail. The 3D components look interesting - it would certainly have saved me a session with the plasticard and solvent on 7867. I am hoping he will just be happy to have a catering vehicle for his train! Tony

Tony It was a while ago, and I used the sides marketed at the time by 247 Developments, which seem to have disappeared since the business has transferred to a new owner. The etches did have the extended sides and could be used in the same way as the Comet sides, but you had to bend them yourself which resulted in one of my sides ending up distinctly banana shaped! Fortunately I was just in time to get a replacement and complete the rake. I think Bill Bedford may do the sides in the Mousa Models range, but not sure of their current availability. There was a lot of work in the 6 coaches and it will be a while before I am ready to tackle another set! Tony

Keith, I have tried using Bachmann Bulleids for conversions in the past, but as others have found they appear to be somewhat undersize which means you have to file the brass sides to suit. I have found the Hachette/Bachmann Mk1 coaches better for my conversions to date as not only are they better lengthwise they also have a close coupling mechanism which suits my layout in that the coaches are almost touching gangway to gangway on the straight but they will go round my 3' curves at the end. I do prefer the Bachmann bogies (with metal wheels) which seem to be quite free running. The Hachette coaches I am using in these conversions are from my donor stocks as they are now becoming difficult to find second hand - most of mine were bought with the magazine for £3.99 which keeps the overall costs down. The current second hand price seems to be about £10 each which is still cheaper than most other suitable makes although you will need to do additional work, and also buy a set of suitable bogies. Whilst I am waiting for the parts to come for the dia 2666 Maunsell buffet I have made a start on the Bulleids (the process is very similar for Bachmann Mk1's): The above picture shows the brass sides (ref S8 & S9 from Wizard Models) plus the two donor Hachette Mk1's The coach is then stripped to its basic components, roof, sides, underframe and bogies. The interior is discarded (unless you want to keep for future projects). Glazing is removed from the sides and discarded. All the roof detail in carefully filed and sanded off, all underframe equipment removed and the central girders cut off and pared smooth - it is essential to get the underfloor as flat as possible to ensure easy fitment of the correct parts. The ends have also had attention; all end detail has been removed except the gangway (reshaped), jumper cables and buffers (heads need thinning down on the Hachette models). The buffer beam has also been re-profiled into a more Bulleid coach shape. This stage is very messy with plastic swarf that get everywhere. I do realise in making these conversions they are not 100% accurate but my intention is to produce a coach that will satisfy most viewers at operating distances on a layout, will run reliably, be compatible with other current manufacturers stock and most importantly be relatively cheap to produce! Tony

John, This particular coach only has the recessed ends at one end, rather than both ends on the open 2nd but what you are suggesting is a good idea - I have just checked and Precision Paints sell the sides only at £2.50 each. In theory I should only need one side! I will then need to work out a good mechanical join between the plastic and brass sides. In the meantime I will order some Kirk sides to experiment. Re the grab handles, I think the majority of grab handles are the later type, as supplied on the Southern Pride or MJT brass frets, but I shall keep all the salvageable ones from the Hornby sides anyway! Thanks Tony Tony

Thanks for your response Phil however on further reflection I have to think about that one a bit more. I have several Hornby donor coaches to use but I was going to use an open 2nd type as it is the only Hornby coach with the recessed end doors which the dia 2666 buffet has. This was to get over the problem where I would have to create this somehow on the Bill Bedford sides as supplied, which are flat etches with a gap where the recess occurs - this requires a complex series of bends in two planes. My idea was to graft the main Bedford etch onto the Hornby coach at the point of the bend, retaining the Hornby end door. However searching the internet Hornby open 2nds (R4538?) seem to be rarer than hens teeth and the thought of paying c£45 for a coach to submit to the razor saw is making me gulp a bit (the coach above cost me about £28 including the coach and Ex Kirk sides, plasticard and paint. As I have a friend who wants the Bulleid 2 car set I will start that while I am thinking through a solution to the dia 2666 buffet. Finding these solutions (at a minimal cost!) is one of the aspects of modelling that interests me most; I have managed to make most of my coaches for around the £30 each mark in total, but of course that doesn't include the labour (which probably averages about 35 hours per coach). I have made all the Bulleid coach varieties at least once except the open 2nds, including 3 tavern car sets and a 6 coach Bournemouth set as well as several of the Maunsell types so hopefully know what I am doing with these two coaches. If anyone has any bright ideas about the dia 2666 recess they would be gratefully received. Also if anyone is interested in the Bulleid coach build I would be happy to share on this forum. Tony

Added the glazing and handrail to finish the coach over Christmas, now to box up for the new owner! Next project - either a Bulleid 2 coach set (Comet sides on Hachette donor) or a Maunsell dia 2666 buffet (another Hornby donor with Bill Bedford sides); any preference? Happy New Year Tony

Having wrapped the presents I managed a couple more hours in the Railway Room. I have now finished the interior; I have added some staff and customers although I don't think you will see much in the finished coach. As it is a buffet a couple are drinking tea, but the men seem to have something that looks suspiciously like beer! The body has had transfers added - I like to use Methfix where I can but have given up with coach numbers as I find it too difficult to get them in a straight line with correct spacing so usually use waterslide for those. Commode handles have also been added, with the door handles picked out in 'brass'. Windows to be cut and fixed, plus corridor handrail; further work will now probably be suspended till Boxing Day! Have a good Christmas! Tony

Amazing what you can get from Ikea Dave! Seriously, I used my trusty leather hole punch for the seats with short strips of 5 thou plasticard wrapped round and plastic rod posts. One thing I forgot was having carefully marked out the position for the stools on the floor I then went and painted it! After a bit of thought I copied the plan, then cut out that section to use as a template to mark the legs. I have now also painted up the obligatory attendant and a couple of customers, but not sure if they will be seen in the finished coach. Have now sprayed the body and painted the underframe and bogies. As usual the spraying went wrong; having done 5 thin coats on the outside onto the primer which went fine (despite finishing in the dark outside) I turned the body over the next day to give a coat on the inside. The inside was fine but some spray had drifted onto the outside bottom of the body and dried matt - I hate painting! After it has all dried thoroughly I will T cut it back and hopefully it will be OK. Enjoy your festivities and thanks for your support. Tony

Made the 8 saloon stools this morning; not sure you can really see them when in the coach but only took an hour or so. Also added the lead boxes to the solebar as discussed with Phil. I think I will pass on the bottom stepboard - one job less to do! The Mousa Models sides for the dia 2666 1953 Maunsell buffet conversion turned up today so the projects are starting to queue up! Tony

Thanks for the info Phil - I had cut out the lead boxes from some spare sprue (as you have guessed I never throw anything away when modelling!) just in case and will have to fabricate some steps. I was not sure about the latter as there is a very good picture of 7864 on the Bluebell website after withdrawal which does not show the bottom footstep? The monsoon vents are simply two layers of plasticard shaped, stuck together, then fixed to the roof. Hoping it will be warm enough to start spraying over the next couple of days. Tony

I have had a bit more time in the Railway Room today, so some more progress to show on the Maunsell buffet coach. I have painted the interior, which still need the seats making and fitting plus some other details to finish. The body has had a 'blow over' with Halfords primer and ant small imperfections filled and sanded. I then tackled the roof details; the plans show a side view of the roof detail, but do not show in plan format, so I have copied the middle ventilator spacing from my previous model (which in turn I think were based on photos). The roof tank and cooker vents were made from plasticard, vents are cast accessories. The underframe has had the gas cylinder boxes added (again scratch built from plasticard) but I hit a problem here with the bogie swing - on the full size coach bogie travel would be quite restricted but for a model that has to negotiate minimum 2'6" curves and other track irregularities the bogie dampers foul the boxes. The only solution I have been able to come up with to overcome this is to cut the outer end off the boxes for those affected; I think once painted it will hopefully not show. The other problem was how to fix the body to the chassis - there is not much room on the underframe to put fixing screws once you have avoided the swinging coupling mount and sprung buffer mountings, both features I was keen to retain. There was also an issue with allowing the interior to fit around the corner lugs on the body so that it could be removed as necessary. In the end I managed to get some No.0 X 0.4mm Phillips self tappers between the corner fixing hole and the underframe corner step fixings - it was quite tight as you can see from the third photo, but seems to work OK. Finally for today, a question; an early photo of one of the original RFO prior to conversion in 1947 shows two features - six lead filled boxes attached to the solebar under the corridor side of the kitchen end, and a set of lower steps under the double doors. Unfortunately all the pictures of the buffet conversion I can find seem to show the other side of the coach so I am not sure if these features continued on the converted coach. I am pretty sure the bottom step was removed, but logically I cannot see why the lead boxes would have been removed (as the kitchen end of the vehicle was unchanged in the conversion and presumably the imbalance they were supposed to correct was still present). For the moment I have left both features off the current model although they are both present on the first version I made. Any advice would be gratefully received. Tony

Progress has slowed a bit but have cleaned up the Hornby coach shell and chamfered the ends to accept the Ex Kirk sides which are a good fit for length. To aid a good strong joint along the roof line I then added plasticard 'dragons teeth' to the inside or the Hornby roof to coincide with bodyside between windows and doors as in the first picture below all the while checking fit with the Kirk sides. When these had dried thoroughly I attached the Kirk sides to the Hornby body and filled any resulting (small) gaps and again leave to dry thoroughly. In addition to using the usual plastic solvent I find it useful to reinforce the key joints with polystyrene glue which when dry gives additional strength. The corner fillets are for fixing screws from the chassis to the body as the original fixings disappeared when the sides were cut off (they are part of the glazing). While this assembly was drying I started on the interior; one advantage of this coach is that there are not many windows left in the finished vehicle, which means you cannot see much! The interior plan is copied from the drawings onto the plasticard floor, making allowance for the fixings mentioned above and also the side/roof joiners. Shaping the counter was fun, and as you can hardly see it in the coach others may not want to bother. There are 8 stools to add to the tables at the buffet end which I have yet to make. On the chassis I have glued some 0.25mm rod down the solebar on one side to represent the vacuum pipe the fitted plasticard steps as appropriate. There are also a pair of footsteps on one bogie which I have also added. Thank you all for your positive comments on the build so far; I will continue to post as and when the build advances. Tony

Thank you for your kind comment, John. It was not possible to salvage the roof vents, in any case I use MJT ones so they would not match. The door handles are very nice (and very fragile) plastic mouldings - some are stuck fast to the body, but some can be gently prised off with the aid of a scalpel blade. Success rate on this coach was about 50% (including one that fell off by itself!). I keep these as spares as most commode handles I use are the later Bulleid/BR type, for which I use MJT or Southern Pride etches. Hope that helps. Tony