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Having my own problematic restricted area I know your difficulties. Three things to think about: 1. why the two kickbacks in the FY? Presumably for locos. Why not use a Peco LocoLift or two - saved me a lot of space and allowed longer trains. You could also have another 20 cm and still be clear of the door swing. 2. why not (since you will have one line across the joint) go the whole hog and start the split for the FY using a curved point behind your goods shed (?). Once you are into soldering track across joints you get used to it - by the time I got to my 24th joint (mine has to strike completely) I was quite good at it! 3. It would (I think) be easier and give more flexible use of space if you used cassettes. The fan of points wastes space and of itself can cause problems with stock doing "S" bends over them - they derail more easily. The reason you are being warned off is alignment problems. You need to ensure proper alignment when you fold it down again. Difficult to use dowels in this case. Removable would be easier in that you could use dowels and case latches which would make it steady and readily aligned. I think this is a room in a house so maybe no problems with expansion/contraction/water? (added) What I have seen for alignment of lifting sections is the use of metal (aluminium). I am looking for photos which I know are somewhere! The strip was on the fold down section (so it didn't stick out in the way when lifted) and went into the stationary board through a slot which was reinforced by metal angle on the other side. Absolutely rigid in its effect.

1. an upper layer of scenery is a good idea - you will NOT be able to have an upper layer of track (unless it is completely separate because the gradients would be too much for locos to pull up. 2. curved points would be good. Remember in Settrack (as per Hornby, Bachmann, Peco) ALL points are second radius. Peco Streamline is different and to different standard, as are many others. Mixing Settrack and other things requires care. Because they are smaller size and radius and have insulating plastic pieces Settrack points can cause problems with electrical pick-up for locos. 3. you can use 4th radius with any other radius - either continuously so you can have three curved lines one inside the other, or in combinations - half a circle of (say) 4th radius in visible areas and the other half in 2nd radius "off-scene". This is usual practice for railway modellers - though they probably curve their own flexitrack to the exact radii they want. Please have fun. If you use the easier to set up - but more toy like - Settrack you may have a few running problems. On the whole your youngster won't notice and things will be whizzing about anyway!

It might be useful to think that you don't necessarily need more than 6*4 layout space, just do it a different way - split it up. Have 2 * 6'by 1'6" say with 2 * 3' by 1' bits to end up with a 6' by 6' with a hole in the middle! This allows for larger curves and for bits to be spread out. You need trestles to erect in on (4 off under the 6' by 1'6" bits and hang the 3' by 1' bits between them). It all really depends on the space you have available to erect a layout, and what the access problems might be. I have seen clever designs that have a shunting area on one 6' by 1'6" for use most of the time in son's bedroom plus the ability to go into the garage and erect the full doughnut. The important point is to realise that a 6'by 4' "lump" ain't going to be manageable by a 10 year old on his own. Think out of the box so there is something to do all the time, and something special bigger when dad joins in and can erect the whole thing in a suitable space - like the garage or (when mum takes a deep breath) the dining room. I was lucky 65 years ago to have Hornby O and the corridors of a bungalow to lay it in - sending tea from the kitchen to the living room! 00 ain't like that but you can have a modular system that gives the impression. IMPROVISE!

Is this 00 or N? We need to know. 6' by 4' is not an easy size I am sad to have to tell you if this is 00. Also how about access - is it all round or restricted on some sides? You might like to look at some of the "Plans for Small Layouts" or perhaps stick with a classic like Bredon see https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=21948. This was one I cut my teeth on in Hornby Dublo days! Some room for shunting and running trains at the same time. You will have the usual "keep away from 1st radius points/track" since some locos won't go round it. There is more stuff on a 6' by 4' Bredon here http://www.modelrailwayforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11160&page=2. By tyhe way - subscribe to some of these other forums - it costs nothing and you can then look at things there too. Try using Google - these bredon things came from me searching "bredon model railway"

You can certainly do that already - especially with the new miniature video cameras from the mobile phone industry. HOWEVER as Olddudders points out - you need somewhere for the processor wifi gubbins and a battery. What I have seen a lot of are video cameras in vans or other rolling stock pushed in front of the loco or some where the van fitted with the electronics is towed and the camera lens on the front of a loco has a wired connection. SOME locos or tenders may be big enough to hold what is necessary, but with Bluetooth and/or wifi needing battery power it will be a long time before it is an off the shelf easy to fit technology. There are several threads on here on Bachmann Bluetooth.

You are talking to a man who gets impatient with his shoelaces! If you want to go the MAS route don't forget CR Signals (again usual disclaimer) who build to order and will produce signals with multiple "feathers" (for example) which Train-Tech do not, and they are not expensive. If you think servos are expensive keep away from Absolute Aspects MAS which are works of art and cost similar sums of money. Good luck with the WIT approach - beyond my arthritic 75 year old dexterity levels now, sadly, because in my youth I used the Denny "piano keyboard" system (sliding wooden keys with brass "feelers" and contact screws at appropriate places) which provided WIT and electronic switching on a DIY cheap and effective basis. Seems to have been forgotten about these days. Why not try DCC Concepts wonderful Cobalt-S lever frames - again works of art and beautiful to look at and use - but about £18 each lever! This ain't a cheap hobby any more if you aren't good with your hands! Happy modelling. As I said, I love your layout and re-read these posts every so often when I feel down!

As a north-easterner by adoption I love your layout and have found your step by step descriptions above to be most helpful and encouraging.. The Train-Tech signals I find very good and they operate faultlessly on my DCC system(usual disclaimer), never tried DC versions but my friend says they work fine for him with just wires (resistors) and rotary switches - you can buy controllers too. They may not be valid for NE or for the time period (which is a shame if true) but I for one HATE layouts with no or non-operating signals so I use Train-Tech and to heck with it. Since you have had some experience with wire in tube and slider switches - why not use that?? Is there no room for the odd crank to turn corners? I am told that servos are very good too - they can be easily controlled if you can fit them - plenty of examples/advice on the Signalling threads. Good luck .............

I think we were all presented with a layout that existed and were asked to comment and design signalling etc. I would agree that I wouldn't have started from here - and the OP (Bob) has done some minor rearrangements - especially moving trap points. I don't think he wants to do more changes. This is what he has come up with as a starter arrangement - he says he will be building something more traditional in due course. Personally I'd do some tidying up: 1)remove the cross over with single slip direct into the shed area (if there was room making it into the right hand end of the head shunt to have an easy entry/exit - or remove altogether as unnecessary); 2 remove the link between the lower carriage siding line and the Relief line 3)remove/redesign the strange double slip entry into the yard conflated with the Pilot siding which is over complicated and causes signalling/operational problems. But there you are - probably others would disagree.

Thanks for all of that Mike and the time you took over doing it. It is so interesting to understand how these things really worked, rather than just what signals were where. Thanks again for your time.

My comments are on Phil's latest diagram. As many of you know I am interested in how things really worked and not just the signal and points positioning and locking etc. which are of course vital - but the human element is the final aspect of safety. Please correct me if I am wrong but there are 2 sub-Empires here, the yard (the shunter's domain or was there a Yard Foreman?) and the loco shed (Shed Foreman's domain). Moving in and out of these areas required "a clear understanding" between the signaller and the Foreman as to when something was going in and out. I am also unclear whether a 100 lever box would have a number of signaller's (presumably traffic had a bearing) or whether indeed the earlier suggestion of a second box for shed/carriage sidings and approaches would be valid. Certainly in real life for a single signal box a lot of this would be motors not wires/rods would it not? I am confused with "telephones, gongs and plungers". I understand that plungers (buttons) were often used for a guard (say) to indicate (for example) that a train was fully in a siding. In the case in point the #1 looks to me to be beside a telephone and that would in all probability be on the Shed Foreman's desk for communication with the signalbox? Would plungers be used on signals 5 and 90 (I think they are the right ones for exit to the Main/Relief) to indicate loco ready to leave? Do we need signals 6 (which reads to the head shunt only?) and 89 (which reads to the shed only?) and presumably are the Shed Foreman's domain. Gongs as I understand it are usually operated by levers in the ground frame to allow the shunter to "talk" to the signalbox - maybe telephones by this time? Should signal 7 just be a disc as per 4? Where does signal 9 read to, and if it is into the yard how is that achieved? Would there be a shunter's ground frame or something where there could be a telephone to communicate with the signaller? Trains surely cannot just be stuffed into the yard? Signal 82 appears to cover 2 routes, one into the shed - should there not be another sub bracketed left associated with 28 and entering the shed? There is a problem with light engines entering the shed from the station end since entry is straight into the shed - from the country end they would go into the head shunt. Some comments might help me make sure that any other silly ideas I have are corected before I comment further.

Very nice diagram Phil but I have a few issue with it, largely because I think some idea of how the whole is to operate needs to be taken into account. This is questioning some of your colouring but also some of the suggested signal placements (mainly by others). This posting is exploratory in the hope someone will correct my misapprehensions since I am probably way out in my thoughts. I hope this isn't seen as "threadnapping" as I think it will help Bob iof this is thought through. Earlier Bob said the old Platform 5 was to be a “goods reception” which seems a good idea to me allowing straightforward operations. However that would mean that the point labelled 66 should be twinned with 55 and should normally lie (locked) towards the main lines (and the whole siding and half point be grey). The signaller could then direct a train to the siding from the Relief and then switch and lock the siding to the yard allowing shunting access. I think that there ought to be a main signal on the old platform 5 for departing goods trains - which can only go to the Relief. On a similar vein, I think 65 and most of 46/47 would be hand operated as part of the yard. I don’t know quite how this would be done but the double slip needs to be locked “curved” in both directions (i.e. allowing access from the Loco siding to the yard, and Relief to P3/P4 for safe operation). I can see that the trap at 47 is essential to prevent the Pilot moving onto the main line past the signal. I think a single disc is required for that purpose since access to the yard would be under shunter control. I cannot see a signal on the exit from the goods yard from 47 onto the Relief. If trains are not to exit from P5/Goods exchange via 55 then there will be problems for the Shunter since he will need to clear the path through 65 (now hand controlled) and other points for that to happen. But if it is intended that trains leave the yard in this way then there would need to be a signal? If only a disc to cover shunting onto the Relief. Isn’t the Up signal at 45/7 simply too close to the starters? Maybe just a disc for entry to the Pilot siding? I would suggest that the Down signal at 58 is overkill and could be moved back to the previous signal - which I think should be before the bridge for sighting purposes - and likewise swap the Up signal currently at 30 to the station side of the bridge. The indicators would need to have a “GR” for goods reception added. I think there would need to be some telephones/plungers about in order for the shunter/signaller/driver to communicate about entering leaving the yard and entering and leaving the goods reception/exchange siding.

Bob, Just say "yes". His work is just magnificent and clearly neither you nor I are good at drawing signals! A "proper signalling diagram right round past the loco yard would really encourage the comments (I think anyway!) and help ypu get a better idea of what's where and HOW you might operate it all. Iain.

The siting of the posts in photo 2 looks OK, they need to be at the least at the toe of the points they control. The loco will be a little further back from that. On the first photo the post for Platform 5/Goods arrival will need to be where the red mark is where the fish plates are, remembering that the signal should be on the LEFT of the loco where possible, but variable to obtain best sighting position. Assuming you are NOT having "cash registers" (as described above) you are going to have a forest of signals UNLESS you decide to restrict the routes available from any one signal (all shunting from P3/4/5 only to Relief say? Or only a single sub for shunting/access to Pilot siding on the basis that the moves are obvious and different and the pilot would know where it was going). You could consider having only ONE main departure arm to cover all exits from the platform, but that might be unusual on a larger station like yours. For the full fig I think something like this. The signals on P5 (facing direction of travel) would need to be a bracket with sub to the left for entry into the yard and the central main arm reading to the Relief line with 2 subs below reading upper to shunt on Relief lower to the Pilot siding. The signals on P4 and 3 (facing) would need to be a bracket with shorter main arm to the left reading to the Relief line with a subs below reading shunt on the Relief and lower to the Pilot siding and Main arm to the right leading to the main line with a sub below that reading to Shunt on the main line. I hope someone will come along and give some advice on how these decisions can be made.

Thanks Mike. I am assuming in that case that the incoming train would be cautioned and then the signal released when the driver could/had seen the indicator. Or would a speed restriction be normal. or is it part of "route learning"?

As nobody has given a starter for 10 - here’s an amateur’s attempt - I will now duck for the incoming! The signalling gives some pause for thought. Your back story has this as a run down but once busy station “ripe for closing”. Thus once upon a time there would have been a full fit of signals, and the two lines at the station throat would probably have been an up and down - rather than a bi-directional main and relief. How far do you go? IF the reduced station were staying open for an extended period, you might say that, since the signalling needed revising for the new usage, it was decided to use colour lights for some of the work. That is if you want the easy way avoiding making mechanical signals. Signalling for the station area will mean platform end signals at 1,2,3,4 and 5 - though we have re-purposed 5 to be goods reception and mail/parcels. Signals 1 and 2 would need a main signal which only reads to the main line, and to have a subsidiary branched left reading to the “Loco headshunt” (presumably for a station pilot for main line trains into p1 or p2?) as well as (probably) a sub under the main signal to allow for the pilot shunting stock onto the main. This then allows a pilot to draw out carriage stock onto the main up to the outer home (which will be round the corner before the points into the loco shed) and then propel back into 1,2,3 or 4. This raises the problem of some over signalling based on earlier heavy use as opposed to current use. Signals 3 and 4 would need a main signal for the main line, a lower (bracket) to the right for the Relief, and probably subs under both for shunting on the main and for access to the Pilot siding. Colour lights would have a Route Indicator to show M/R and a single pls with a shunt indicator to show the route set (they are so small you cannot make them work!). The loco head shunt would need a small arm/disc/GPLS to signal clear to exit - whether there would be any indication of p1 or p2 or that dubious pair of spurs between them I don’t know. Signal 5 is the Freight/Mail/Parcels departure and is a main signal reading to the Relief line, a sub for the shunt on the Relief line under that and a sub for entry into the yard bracketed right. The points into the yard and this sub would only be operated once the shunter had indicated “acceptance” by a plunger or telephone call. The exit from the Pilot loco siding has 1 route which would be unlikely to be signalled - entry to the yard - and 3 routes to P5, P4, P3. You either have 1 disc for economy (the driver would know where he was going?), 1 disc with some indicator lights, or a stack of discs with the topmost reading to 5, then 4 then 3. We have discussed above that the usual process of getting freight into and out of the yard will be by platform 5. If that remains then arguably NO signals are required leaving the yard. If you want to allow occasional exit (say a short train of coal wagons to the shed) then you will need ground signals on the exit between the two double slips next to the pilot siding. I’m not sure how you would do that. The home signals on the Main and Relief actually cover 4 routes each. The Main signal into platforms 1-4, probably also needing subs to allow for fresh locos to back down onto carriage sets to form a departing train. A big gantry I guess?). The Relief signal has 3 routes to platforms (3, 4 and 5) and a possible - but dodgy in my opinion, into the yard area which should be a sub I would think with the train first having be brought to a halt. Again a gantry with (left to right) sub for yard, Main and sub for P5, main and sub for P4, main and sub for p3. How’s that for a start? I warn you it’s probably wrong!

Disclaimer: I am an interested amateur and I am NOT an expert - they will appear and criticise and amend in due course. I am just regurgitating (badly) what I have learned from reading (and not always correctly understanding) books and postings on this topic. If you will excuse me, you have created a bit of a conundrum for operations and signalling. In glorious hindsight you need to think about how something will be used/operated FIRST. All stations were designed for a purpose, rail that wasn’t needed wasn’t laid and signalling was expensive (to install, maintain and operate) so the smaller the station the more minimal it was. As far as I can understand, you need a “line of control” between the signalled area and the “yard”. Signalling in the yard will be by shunter’s hand signals. Yard “points” will in general be manually operated. Signallers don’t push freight trains into “yard” areas without “a joint understanding” with the shunter (or whoever is in control|), and this usually means that the freight reception goes into a jointly accessible siding and departure will be into the signalled area from a fixed siding - for which the shunter/yardmaster exchanges control - usually with telephones or “plungers” (buttons in boxes) to accept incoming or to say outgoing is ready to depart. In small rural stations freight trains are often received into the passenger platform(s) and then run round and pulled into a headshunt or removed by another loco (unlikely in sleepy branches but could be the case in your larger station). I would suggest the “line of control” really needs to be across from the Pilot siding to the Local Services platform - below that is signalled and controlled from the box (sometimes by leaning out with a green flag - but controlled). That means the crossover out of the platform and the double slip at the Pilot siding would be locked normal to the Relief line - ensuring nothing could cross (run away) into the controlled area. I would recommend that freight come into the Local Services platform, this would mean a clean handover into the yard by a pilot pulling it off the incoming loco into the the loop called Goods Siding. The siding above the Local Services is fraught with problems and would mean much of the yard would have to be signalled and controlled (signals and locked points) to achieve it (and much more care taken to keep lines clear and wagon brakes pinned etc.). To build a departing freight, the siding above the Local Services platform could be used, and then (with agreement) the train could be pulled out of the yard and propelled into the station to await a loco from the depot. You have so many platforms it might be an idea to use the Local Services one for mail/parcels some of the time and freight arrival departure for the rest. Your “Kip” siding probably won’t work. You cannot readily leave stock on a siding used for shunting, and the coal yard can only be shunted from there. You need to think of using another siding for guards vans. Anyway - your layout your rules.

Absolutely brilliant! Far beyond my arthritic old fingers! I note thr blinds are pushed up - obvious really - silly me. Odd that it is a ringed (freight) signal referring to platforms?

Semaphore signals did have "blinds" in a box (usually under the signal arm?) which pulled up on operating the appropriate signal lever. Several levers operated the one signal (each locked against the others) and pulled up an appropriate blind after the route had been set. Such things are only any good when the train is stationary or has been brought almost to a stand, the "Home" being cleared with the appropriate "blind" at the last minute. Drivers cannot see them at speed - which is why they are usually on platform ends showing exit routes. It was (I believe) more usual to have brackets of signals at the approach to stations. Modern practice uses "feathers" (Position Light Indicators) - that is those branches of (usually 5) small lights in a row roughly pointing to the way the locos would proceed. In any case, there is a problem if you want operational signals of this type. I know of no supplier of mechanical signal blinds, and I think they would be tricky to do, and the only provider of colour light versions (Absolute Aspects - which are what is in your photo) will make your eyes water and give your bank manager a heart attack. You could use colour light signals (but unlikely in your scenario?) and use those provided by Train-Tech. A cheaper and more limited range, but none-the-less effective. I use them (usual disclaimer) and am most satisfied. They supply kits (simple to make up) or ready made. For colour lights you can also look at Eckon/Berko or CR Signals (who would be a cheaper source of specially made colour lights - I use them too and they are very good and very helpful) Your problem will be to decide how far you want to go, and whether the signals will work or not. In my opinion a layout looks daft without signals and sillier still with trains ignoring fixed non-working ones - but that is MY personal hang-up. It's your layout.

What would help would be some idea of how the station was to be operated, what routes trains would take, how stock was intended to be reversed (the loco is at the stop block end of the train). Do you intend to run round (which means arrivals would largely be to platform 4) or will you draw out stock and propel it back into another platform. If so which lines would you use for that - remembering that you only have a single "main line". Only platforms 4 & 5 have access to the relief line. I note the carriage sidings - what are they for and how long. Are they for DMUs or coaching stock - if coaches how will the pilot run round the stock before propelling it into the siding? The carriage sidings don't need (what I take to be) the trap points since the points off the Relief line would need to be locked normal to the main line. Same applies the other end where the crossover will be locked normal to the Relief to prevent runaways. Personally I would remove the link between the carriage sidings and the relief and provide a crossover in the centre of that area between the carriage sidings line and the Relief line to allow a run-round for a pilot collecting/depositing carriage rakes. I do not understand the role of the "spurs" between P1 and P2 - what will they hold and how will it get there? Presumably only by shunting since you wouldn't want to signal a train into them - or would you? I'm not sure that they are anything but a hazard on a passenger line - and would certainly need trapping off to prevent runaways. Personally I'd lift and remove them and put P2 parallel to P1 (with a cossover like P4/P3). If there were room I might replace them with a centre road between P1 and P2. The goods is also a conundrum. How will goods arrive? Into P5 or the siding above it. It would be better if it were the siding - since it has more reverse shunting opportunities there - P5 can only reach the "goods siding". However, if you want to shunt the rest a pilot will need to pick items off the rear of the train. The goods arrival problem is best explained by P5 and the siding above it. If you arrive into the siding, then a pilot can pull stock off the end of the train, and run round it to shunt in various directions. For P5 that isn't possible as it only has access to the lower siding which is shorter because the crossover there faces the wrong way. I am confused about your goods yard. It might be usual to have a reception and an departure siding - where trains can be broken up or assembled, yet so much seems to be labelled as head shunts - implying stock cannot be left standing on it? By the way - most goods yards of this size don't have signal boxes, and the points would be operated by hand - either singly or from a ground frame. Anyway - think about routes - because that is what needs to be signalled - not every possible route but those which make the station operable the way you want. For example your signal gantry above may need a subsidiary to signal a loco to the Pilot Loco Siding.

Yes it's his thread. Someone else had posted another layout here, and I suggested it would be better if he started a new topic. THAT post has gone.

Nothing personal, but WHY do you keep putting this in other people's threads. You can start your own, just click on the top right - "Start a new Topic"

That is what I meant to ask, however the other information is fascinating too. I get the "revenue earning" bit. That makes the answer much clearer - because I couldn't see a signalling reason why either line could not be used with the right safety margins.

This is a "proper procedure" question when considering model design for a terminal station with ECS sidings or the need to release locos. A "Minories" style terminal would bring up the picture for discussion. Now I know that the original idea for such a station was that it was suburban services largely tank engine operated. Forgetting that for the moment, we now have moved to largely DMU/EMU operation but some loco hauling of carriages too. Next door to the station are some Carriage Sidings. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130407-great-eastern-based-emu-terminus/. This is another person's thread, it has just caught my imagination. The OP probably knows the answer, I am an amateur in these matters. To clean and return to service, stock needs to go to the carriage sidings and get put through a washer and internally brushed up. So we have stock in a platform to move to a parallel platform or an area of sidings that is not directly accessible from the running lines - so we have the need to pull out onto a running line and then set back into either a head shunt or a siding. We have an "in" line and an "out" line. Most of the good quality models I have seen shunt using the "out" line - so set back onto the out line up (as far as the advanced starter at a maximum) and then set back into a new platform/siding. My question is whether the "in" line could be used, with some "limit of shunt".

I have a further idea which extends the length of P2 and P3 on the assumption that ECS re-positioning is done via the "out" line. Remove the double slip and point on P2 and replace by back to back points on the central siding/P3 exit. This means that cleaned ECS can exit into either the central siding or P3 directly. Positioning to P1/P2 would require a move to the "out" and then back to the required platform. It then becomes debatable as to whether the line from the centre siding to one of the storage sidings at the right is actually required at all? That would mean 2 storage sidings off a head shunt and all access by shunting to/from platforms via the "out" line. As I have said - some analysis of the kind of traffic expected/desired would be helpful for making a final design. I am also ignorant of operating procedures that might apply in real life. What I have seen implies shunting is more usual on the "out" line but maybe this ain't necessarily so? In which case the diamond ladder could stay in - it looks attractive and town terminal space limited/complexity. A mashed up sketch is attached. SCN1523369570532.pdf

As ever your throat design is fascinating, and the whole thing looks much more uncluttered, realistic and operable to me. I love the ideas on this thread but it was ending up with a set of parallel lines stretching right across the board which IMHO was losing the potential attractiveness. I would question the trail of diamonds from the "in" line. I am not sure what they are for really. Shunting from platforms would usually (?) be carried out on the "out" line, so this would only be there to run empty stock from some other imaginary point off this layout directly into the carriage siding/washer head shunt at the cost of stopping all other movements. I'd probably remove it, but replace the next point in towards the station (under the SB) with a single slip and extend to the double slip such that incoming trains could get to P3 (and the central siding - but that would be a bit perverse too). If you linked the head shunt to the "out" line maybe by a 3-way and a diamond then the head shunt could be longer. Now all platforms can be reached incoming and leave outgoing on visible point work. One "requirement" - that of multiple EMU storage lines has gone - and that may be a no-no for the OP. To my mind the de-cluttering is better. If there were to be ECS coming in for the Carriage Depot, if you remove the diamonds it would have to go into a platform (or the central siding) first and then zig zag into the head shunt via the "out" line. Someone needs to analyse requirements and traffic flows before any decisions, but I think this is a good contribution.