JSpencer

Sorry for the misunderstanding there. My "This year alone" statement refers to the 33 only on that post. Concerning 23, on the 23 thread I posted photo's of late and early nose versions so you can see the differences. While the side widows are incorrect on one, the nose shape is the same for both IMHO, so in fairness no issue for me there concerning the nose. I will state also that my class 15 beats all my other locos for its supreme coat of gloss paint including Triang but it is a nice compact model and a decent runner. I like it honestly, even if I nicknamed it "the shiny one". I am not saying Heljan are rubbish, I am saying that their models are either "WOW I love it and must have one" or "why on earth did they get that wrong?" I personally only buy a Heljan when I see feedback now. For example, I did not preorder the new early nose class 23, but as it got such positive feedback I brought one. I am really happy with it. Nicely weathered it is too... (we need only look at the Garrett thread about hit'n'miss in that department). Now that all the speculation is done in all senses, lets see what they eventually do for 1361 and 1366 classes. Will we get "wow" or will it be "why?" we will have to wait and see.

I don,t think no one has disputed the running qualities of Heljan. And I have no dispute with Kernow's well tank nor Dapol a class 22 and 10000 models. But I have had huge problems with Heljans build quality and accuracy over the years, to the point that I avoided buying products for 3 years. Today I have 17 models from Heljan which represents easily less than 10% of my active fleet. Accuracy issues: Original 33/0. Wrong shape New 33/0 late body, additional panel which does not exist, printed detail, latches and bolts for roof, exhaust port wrong place DP2, cab roofs completely wrong, warped body sides around the grills Class 23' side windows in wrong place Build quality: Kestrel snapped front valances Class 28, went through 7 examples before finally accepting one with minor damage Class 23' went through 8 examples before accepting one which had one set of diodes not working Em1, needed repair of minor details (some debate about accuracy here too) When Hattons first announced that Heljan were going to do their Garret, I thought "oh god". I happy with the result but the heavy weathering on that is anything but! 9 out of 17, over 50% with issues. And I do not think I am alone here. Thus why I say they are Hit and Miss....

I guess whether or not Hornby will do other members of the class will depend on both sales of the CoTN and research showing how many people who did buy it, will buy other members. I personally have ordered CoTN, I would certainly buy Earl Marshal in her original form However I will not buy the Bugatti nose one, simply because I built a Ks kit of it 20 years ago (otherwise doubtless I would!) However who would and would not buy other members? And which ones?

The problem with this class is that it is niche class. A very niche class at that. I doubt the pie is big enough for 2 manufacturers, and people wanting to buy one will mostly belong to purist group who understand its historical importance (this not P2 in every table top book after all). So the best will win it IMHO in the end. Newcomers wanting GW tank, will most likely go for a pannier where there is a heathy fleet to choose from. I personally will not be buying either as it is not my cup of tea. I just hope it will not add another 3 year delay to my Bullied diesels (for which we have no idea who will make them now BTW) due to the race that might entail. And I agree it is more a wasted resource having two people make them when both could have been on different niche models. Heljan say the CADs are ready, if so they should share them and let buyers know what they intend because hiding it won't inspire confidence I feel. Showing it would provide them with info to know whether or not they onto a winner or pull out before wasting resources on a dead duck.

Apararently in Canada, it is very good. Although one model was delayed 9 years due to lack of demand.

Tony Wrights review noted a front slope on the chassis block, so maybe it has been developed with an eye to other members of the class at some point in the future. I personally am waiting for my firemans breakfast with TTS version....

Mine will initially run with a baby deltic or class 40. Not typical I know but should turn heads at a show later this (especially as both are sound fitted!).

Just curious but how did the inspection team communicate with the loco driver? I can imagine them being in front wanting to send orders back saying, go faster, slow down, stop, bring us some fireman,s breakfast and so forth.... If it was a push pull coach that would explain how but would equally demand a specially fitted loco. As far as I can tell they did not. Maybe they used flag signals like a ship or a series of hoots etc etc. maybe some army radio kit....

Heljan can be hit or miss. This year alone. Early class 33, excellent. Late class 33, they ruined it by adding an extra roof panel that does not exist, included both latches and bolts on various roof grills when only latches exist. Original late class 23, ruined by having the side windows in the wrong place. Early nose class 23, perfect.

I will justify my confidence with Kernow as follows: 1) projects that they had with Dapol fell to a standstill, I agree no news for years (whose fault that was, I will not state an opinion as both parties already said their's) 2) projects they have with Bachmann were running smoothly until recent times, due to now known problems at Bachmann 3) Projects they have with DJ Models, have moved a long in leaps and bounds. We saw cad draings then engineering prototypes in a short time for the O2. OK no RTR model yet... and I agree that the DJ Models is not yet "battle proven". However based on the speed of progress with DJ Models, I predict a lead time of 18 to 24 months at their current rates. We also know from the O2 model, the amount of effort gone in to getting individual détails correct for class members. I cannot think of a case where Heljan did this, as they seem to keep to just a couple of main variants. Heljan's lead times seem more like 24 to 36 months at the moment, but they have previously been much faster. Sometimes they are spot on with the model, sometimes they miss. It is nearly a year since the 1366 was annouced, yet no price nor liveries. The 1361 if annouced at the next Warley show may well be in the same boat. Perhaps they will get theirs done for less than £100, but will they do the detailed variants? (unlikely I think). This model is not P2, wanted by 1000s, many of whom may accept simpler détails. This is a very niche loco that will be known mainly by purists/historical people - they will doubtless want the best model possible and I therefore think the odds are currently with DJ models and Kernow. That could change IF a major error is made by Kernow or Heljan shock us with a better/cheaper/quickly available product - but I personally doubt it will happen. Thus the reasoning of my odds in Kernow's favour....

Heljan most probably observe the 2 biggest players to avoid duplicating anything they do. But we already have one example of them ignoring a smaller players plans and going ahead with their own. Remember Dapol announced DP2 first, a few months before Heljan announced theirs. Dapol then dropped theirs with a big maybe for the future.... (Though I personally doubt they will do DP2 now, at least not within 10years anyway). Dapol were slow to release new models anyway. But this will pose some interesting questions. I assume both players will not produce the tank loco until they have a healthy order book. The Kernow one has taken an advance here, the prototype is little know so most people wanting one will want the best model of the two. The only thing is the Heljan will be a general release, how confident will model shops feel to sell them before placing orders? That is what will determine whether or not the Heljan will be made. I would say the odds are currently in Kernow's favour to bring theirs out first, but Heljan can move quickly when it suits them.

Did any Bachmann coaches ever have sprung buffers? I cannot think of any.

In terms of running performance my DoG runs as well as any 5 pole Hornby engine. That said, the motor is very noisy in the DoD

Yep, saw that too. Just ordered one, be stupid of an SR BR fan to miss this...

I,m in with a green one. Probably order a second once I return from Canada

Mirror mirror on the wall, Who is the strongest of them all? It beats a Bachmann 9F, but a Lima class 60 is stronger (by cheating with traction tyres). Next contest, the P2.....

The Hornby model really looks the part and seems to surpass Bachmann's C class. Cannot wait for this model. Well done Hornby so far.

Seems to be. Bachmann new policy. The Porthole coaches have the same arrangement.

Well I am happy to report mine seems to be mechanically sound (touch wood). So great model, damaged box. I test ran it upside down to check that both halves run at the same speed. They do through the entire speed range. Very quite engine too, hardly a peep. Smooth runner, handles all my track well. What more can I say.... Makes the Duke of Gloucester look like a dreadful row next to it. So very pleased with the model, shame about the box (can I change just that?).

Now you are making me jealous!

Has anyone noticed that the top middle lamp iron is missing on the rear of the loco?

Cheaper than a Garrett? Thats a bargain! I must build my Crownline kit someday...

I live in a town fall of dis-interested postal people who purposely sabotage the machines for buying stamps. Registered signed for means nothing to them. Fortunately Parcel Force parcels do not pass through them. I have not tested my Garrett through points yet nor compared its strength against a Bachmann 9F.

For me the P2 is the only out standing item I have from all of my Hornby orders from last year or before and I order several new items a year. So I am happy....

Good news, loco is healthy, runs really well. Ditto others on comments about sand pipes etc. not too hard to correct. We now know 2 of these Garrett's are in France. My French rail friends looked at it and said "what an odd loco..." One said "looks too big and awkward to be practical on a layout". Maybe but I did not buy it to fill a motive power gap.