RichardT

Yes, in terms of pre-grouping inter-company relations the Midland was historically an ally of the NER, and would have been a lot happier in the LNER group! One of the many reasons why I dislike the type of railway history that always groups the pre-1923 companies together in terms of what Group they ended up in, as if Grouping was some Whig version of history - an historic inevitability. It’s like the type of enthusiast who treats railways like supporting a football team, and is astonished to find out that senior railway managers (especially CMEs/Loco Superintendents) actually worked for other “rival” companies before ending up at the one they’re most famously associated with. 😄 Richard

Wow. The U1 is such a bonkers choice it deserves to succeed - and will probably do so, especially given the 2025 centenary. I was almost tempted myself as I model LNER (ex NER) - but in N! (But instead I’ve ordered a Rapido Y7 - if I’m going to dabble in 4mm it’s going to have to be a micro, not with a loco bigger than my baseboard…) But I do have some sympathy with the cri de cœur raised above - all the core everyday locos that aren’t produced in 4mm, let alone 2mm, of which I’d buy multiples! (V3 tank anyone?) I suspect the manufacturers don’t get these requested because the fact is most railway modellers don’t actually know very much about railways - they just want shiny big rtr toys to trundle round the loft. I look forward to seeing a procession of completely unrealistic goods trains hauled by U1s on exhibition tailchasers from 2025 onwards. And good luck to them. The pity is that at one time those gaps would be filled by kits, but no longer. And please don’t say “3D printing” - for steam locos that’s promised a lot but delivered very little, especially as many designers don’t seem to give any thought as to how the body shells they produce might be motorised, or stand up to operation (e.g. incorporating fragile bits like buffers and boiler fittings into a one-piece shell). Anyway, going OT now. Good luck Heljan. RichardT

“Some were - look for photographic evidence” is the only reasonable answer. I’m sure spending large amounts of time with the Yeadon volumes plus searching all available archives and photo collections would get someone closer to an actual tally but, given that this specific information is of no real historical importance, I think the time would be better spent on actual modelling. (Or seeing friends, travelling, appreciating great art etc etc. - essentially what I’m saying is life is too short.) RichardT

Hi David Glad to help. I’m afraid I’m using enthusiast slang - the RCTS “Green Bibles” is common parlance for the multi-volume definitive series “Locomotives of the LNER”, published by the Railway Correspondence & Travel Society (RCTS) from the 1960s to the 1980s in green covers, hence the nickname. Volume 1 is the Preliminary Survey, containing info common to all classes (liveries, names, numbering etc), then the remaining 10 or 11 vols deal with groups of similar locos. They are long out of print but pop up at secondhand dealers all the time - chasing down a set is great fun and I like having the paper copies. HOWEVER they are now also available for free online browsing (registration required) or (paid for) digital downloads on the RCTS website! See https://archive.rcts.org.uk/locomotives-of-the-lner/ Browse away! You may also hear people talk about the “Yeadon” volumes surveying LNER locos. The late Willie Yeadon was one of the joint authors of the RCTS series, and subsequently his research notes have been used to produce incredibly detailed (loco by loco) class histories. Again, it’s fun to collect them, but I personally think that the original RCTS volumes contain more than enough detail for any normal person. The Yeadon surveys border on the obsessive - more antiquarian than historian… Best Richard

Don't confuse the LNER with the LMS. The companies grouped into the LNER had a long history of co-operation e.g. over operating the ECML (ECJS, and GNNEJS); and the GNR, GCR and GER had previously tried to merge but had been blocked from doing so by Parliament. According the the RCTS Green Bible vol.1 (which should be your first port of call for these kind of questions) the number suffixes started in the first week of September 1923 when locos emerging from Doncaster Works had a small N added to the end of their number. About a week later the other works followed suit (Gorton adding a C, Stratford an E, Darlington a D, Cowlairs B and Inverurie S) This system persisted for about six months, when on 6 Feb 1924 the Chief Asst Mech engineer at Darlington instructed Darlington and Gateshead Works on the agreed rules for renumbering locos (NER stay as were, H&B completely renumbered in NER system, GN add 3000, GC add 5000, GNS to use vacant numbers at end of GC sequence following discussions between relevant managers, GE to add 7000 and NB to add 9000). "The engines will be renumbered as they pass through works for repairs." Similar instructions were issued at the other works. It appears from the tables in the RCTS book that the bulk of re-numberings were completed by the end of 1925 but odd ones took until 1926. The LNER directors met at York on 31 Jan 1923 and at Marylebone on 22 Feb 1923 to view eight and then twelve sample engines in a variety of liveries and lining styles (NER, GNR, NBR and GCR). All were lettered L&NER, some with and some without full stops after the letters. In the meantime locos appeared from works in pre-group liveries with lettering or coats of arms missing, and from March 1923 with L&NER lettering in shaded letters. From May 1923 the full stops were omitted from the lettering. The "&" was dropped between June and September 1923 i.e. BEFORE the letter suffixes were introduced. However the RCTS state that "In 1923-24 there were many freak liveries, principally due to changes being made to lettering and/or numbering while the engines remained in pre-Group livery." Also they note that "it was regular practice at Stratford for several years to repaint engines in GER grey livery with LNER 1924 numbers painted in GE style [on the tender] and without lettering." Does that help? RichardT

Sorry, can’t let this pass. It’s a good enthusiast obsession shoehorn, but absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion in this topic. Regular collection reviews and disposals are part of the routine work of a properly managed museum. Of course, the disposals you’re bothered about are just those of railway vehicles - not all the thousands of other items held. The NRM arguably does less of it than it should do because it’s worried about ignorant enthusiast reactions from those who are under the impression that the job of a national museum is to keep one of everything. The core rail vehicle collection was put together in the 1950s by a bunch of great and good male nostalgics who wanted all their boyhood favourite shiny chuff chuffs and royal carriages preserved at public expense to show that Britain was best. It never occurred to them in a million years that the museum might want to make space and free resources in the future to collect other perspectives e.g. diesel and electric vehicles, carriages used by ordinary people and goods stock used for humble purposes, everyday goods and industrial locos, narrow gauge items, or even, heaven forfend, loans or acquisitions from furriners which could tell parts of the railway story better than British stuff. The vehicle collection is well overdue a slimming down. We had years of discussion when I was there as to why we had so many Edwardian 4-4-0s all telling more or less the same story and which could be let go. (Also in need of a hard look, of course, are the unsustainable number of steam locos allegedly “preserved” on heritage railways but in fact simply in a deferred scrapping queue). There, that’ll make me unpopular! <Yorkshire hat on> Nonsense! Much wetter in the south-west than the north-east. <Yorkshire hat off> Which is actually better for steam railways as you’re less likely to have to curtail steam services in the peak season due to fire risk in dry hot conditions. Which the NYMR has suffered from recently, whereas the Dorset drizzle presumably helps the SR. 😋 OT diversion over. RichardT

Nail on head. Thomas events were killed by greed fifteen-odd years ago: the only potential railway enthusiasts they may have influenced are now aged twenty+! RichardT

Rod Stewart is definitely a modeller (and I bet he was asked for this series but demurred) but I’m not sure about any of the others. The series is about celebrities who are actual railway modellers, not celebrities who are known to be interested in railways more generally. Indeed, the Francis Rossi episode was a bit of a stretch in that regard. Normally a series like this would be six episodes: the fact that it was only four suggests a lack of other relevant content. Rather than spoiling the idea I’d rather they left it at the four programmes they’ve got. Just like the BBC documentary “The Joy of (Train) Sets” was a delightful one-off. Sometimes less is more. RichardT

1834 is also before the start of civil registration (1837) so you’ll need to find his baptism - not birth - record. People had children baptised very quickly after birth then (high infant mortality) so the baptism record is a good proxy for date of birth. The baptism might be in the Church of England parish records but the West Riding in the 1830s was a non-conformist stronghold so his baptism may be in Methodist/Quaker/Baptist etc. records - do you have any information on Peckett’s religious affiliations? CoE registers are the place to start though, as many nonconformists (including even Jews and Roman Catholics) had their children baptised by the CoE (with their fingers crossed!) because of the higher legal status CoE baptism gave you. So, first step is to find out what parish Garden Street Wakefield was in and check the registers. Luckily the online family history providers (Ancestry, FindMyPast etc) have digitised huge quantities of church registers, and your local public library can usually give you access to these databases for free onsite (if you want web access you have to pay a subscription). (The majority of historic information isn’t accessible via a web search and still needs looking up in books or archives, or via paid-for datasets.) RichardT (retired archivist)

Yes, I think you’re right, but from what I read on the preservation forums the connection to the mainline hasn’t been well publicised (railway staff aren’t aware of it); there’s no through ticketing (and of course no through trains); and it’s not as visible as it might be at Wareham (e.g. some Swanage Railway trains being described as “charter train” rather than “train to Swanage” on described screens, thus putting off potential passengers). I like getting a train to connect with a preserved railway, but I believe that in reality this is largely an enthusiast obsession and, unless in a densely-populated area with an already public transport-minded population, most visitors will drive. Richard

Exactly - buses are the public transport, the railway is a joyride. The main value of a lot of branches was that they plugged people into the national network for medium and long distance travel, ideally with through trains and ticketing. They weren’t expected to survive on local travel. If the York/ Scarborough branch relied only on local travellers it would close tomorrow - its value is that it connects Scarborough with the ECML and the West Yorkshire conurbation. Remove that longer distance connectivity option and the branch has to survive on its other tourist attractions, not by being a travel provider. RichardT

@Dungrange I can’t answer your detailed question but may I make a suggestion which might elicit more informed answers? I’d change your topic title because it’s obvious from your initial post that you do know the difference conceptually between a general merchandise wagon and a mineral wagon, which your topic title implies you don’t. The specific question you want answering is “did the GER use general merchandise wagons for mineral traffic”. Phrasing it something like that might attract the attention of the many GER & pre-grouping. experts out there? Cheers, RichardT

I’ve said on the J52 thread that it’s lovely but the wrong scale for me. However, my other half is called Judy* and on a recent Cornish holiday she insisted on buying a postcard of said loco, so I can feel my card easing out of my wallet… RT * Yes, we are Richard and Judy.

Looks lovely. Wrong scale and railway for me but lovely nonetheless. Not sure J52s ever got to the north east of England though! (Doncaster is not in the north east 😁). RT

I've just received the most recent Rapido US Newsletter, 90% of which was of no interest to me because, as usual, it was predominately H0 and I dabble in US N. But then at the very end was this interesting statement, and in particular the penultimate paragraph (my emboldening): "We’ve heard the requests. We know there is aN elephant in the room. We quite frankly misread the market and that’s on us, not you. It’s time to look inward. A prime example of this is our recent VIA/CN sets that were cancelled due to low orders. As well as being a bit niche for the average N scale modeler, we realize now that it was simply too much train for too much money. Lesson learned! Additionally, we’ve reassessed our entire N scale strategy and have decided to shift our focus going forward. Our freight car offerings have been very hit-or-miss, so we’ll be moving away from that side of the market and concentrating on what has generally done well overall - locomotives and passenger equipment. That said, we’ve decided to tie up some loose ends and just push forward with the Procor 5820 pellet hoppers. We’ve sent the purchase order off to the factory and plan to make extra inventory should interest in this car pick up down the road. The RR56 reefer, however, is simply unprofitable at this point and will be shelved for the time being. Apologies to those who were anxiously awaiting them, but at the end of the day we’re a business that employs many people in multiple countries and would like to continue to do so! Another thing we’ve heard you loud and clear on is our level of detail. Things like cut levers and separate grabs aren’t what most N scalers seem to want, so we’re planning to simplify things a bit. What’s important is overall dimensional accuracy, crisp paint and lettering, and most critically of all, operational reliability; properly running trains are the best trains! So hang in there guys, more N scale is coming soon. We have something awesome planned for Christmas, with more good stuff to follow in 2024. Onward! Jeremy" As I said in the title - a straw in the wind? Richard T

Well said. RT

Words of wisdom which should be pinned permanently to the heading of every enthusiast and modellers’ forum and publication. EDIT Sorry, I now see that @CWJ has already made this point. Richard

Previously you made a comment along the lines that the south deserves more because more tax revenue is raised there. That piece of ignorance was bad enough, but now this. This situation is a direct result of a deliberate political choice by the Thatcher governments in the 1980s to implement a shock-therapy of rapidly deindustrialise the UK, with no compensatory investment to reskill or reinvest in the deindustrialised areas - but rather to ignore them in favour of an industrial policy focused on financial services almost entirely favouring the south east of England. Resulting in a massive flow of money and - more tragically in terms of building for the future - bright young people towards London and its environs, producing the current ludicrous housing costs in the SE and the most economically-unbalanced country in Europe. If you have so little knowledge of why the broken economic landscape of the country now looks the way it does, and why there are constant pleas to redress the investment balance between the SE and the rest so that EVERYONE who is a citizen of this country has a chance to fulfil their potential, for the betterment of us all, then can you do some reading before commentating in future? And, at the very least, please do not repeat your gratuitously-insulting and repulsive “whinging northerner” comment again. RichardT

Where did you and your son get your free cars? Richard

Jon Pertwee! (Oh, you mean of the new incarnation? 😁) RT

The Fat Dictator, surely. OT but ISTR that there originally was also a Thin Controller, who faded out of the Awdry stories rather quickly. RT

Of course - I knew this reminded me of something… 😂

From this week’s “Private Eye”: I particularly like “Hornby-ong-yang” So, Rapido, are you listening? You could call it “The Killing-Field Thunderbolt”. (Yes, I know that was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, but KJU is the modern Asian incarnation of that epithet.) Richard

Oh joy - another copyright discussion. All I'll add is that the *duration* of copyright, as defined by the various copyright acts usually as a period of years after the death of a defined creator, is not the same thing as who *owns* the copyright. A copyright is a piece of property and can be bought, sold or given away separately from ownership of the physical copyrightable item. BFI may have acquired the physical BTF film archive, but may not have acquired the copyrights from BTF or its successors in law. Many archives own the physical stuff but not the copyright. But the BFI would be the people I'd ask first as they are most likely to know. (I won't even get into the tangled issue of the separate copyrights in components of the films - any photographic stills associated with the film, the text of the script, any musical score used on the soundtrack, and the recorded soundtrack itself.) And as for YouTube - it's a lawless jungle of copyright infringement and only the deepest pockets can afford to pursue legal action against it. RichardT

1962, in Acomb Church Hall (as Westfield School Railway Club). Richard