njee20

I'm not sure I really buy people being 'priced out'. Yes ok, maybe previously they bought more of one wagon (for example), but it's not like you have to keep buying in order to remain in the hobby. You can have a very static collection. If people really do decide it's got so expensive they want to sell everything and give up then there's a healthy second hand market, with prices buoyed by the new costs, such that the hypothetical person would probably have quite a large amount of money to rebuy their collection, particularly if you buy second hand I find most things can be cost neutral. Newcomers to the hobby are unlikely to be put off, because they won't remember "those halcyon days" where everything was cheap. The decline in youth entering the hobby is nothing to do with cost. If you made model railways 10% of the price it still wouldn't be flooded with young participants. Just look at the price of games consoles, plus new games, online subscriptions, peripherals etc etc, the cost argument is totally moot. We don't have lots of young people doing model railways because it's not cool. Simple. Like Ben I was interested in model railways when I was younger, I drifted away in my teenage years and returned to it when I could afford (both space and money) a layout of my own.

Mike's spot on IMO. There are always going to be a small minority of people who complain things are too expensive. I guarantee if you go back 10 years you'll find people moaning still. Yet models still sell out, the market seems healthy, I'm genuinely not sure what problem you're trying to solve? I don't want to be applying details to RTR models myself (things like buffer beam detailing aside, but even then I like that the Dapol 68 came so fitted). I don't mind building kits, or whatever, if there's a cost advantage, but I'm fine with the price of RTR in general, don't blur that line. I think we're spoiled in the quality and the choice of models available, it's an exciting time to be a modeller. If stuff got cheaper would I buy more? Probably not frankly. I'd still cherry pick what I buy - to fit in with my interests, time period and location modelled etc. They did cut VAT to 15% for a while a few years back, but to be honest I'm not sure it really has much of an impact. Perhaps on a macro level - insofar as it means household expenditure drops, but I'm not sure it stimulates sales on a micro level. If Farish cut prices by 5% tomorrow it would have no effect whatsoever on my purchasing habits. VAT is included in all our selling prices though, unlike sales tax, so people are probably less aware of it. I know I'm always slightly enraged by Sales tax in the US in that you think an item will cost X, and then it costs Y, that's lunacy IMO!

That's the one :-) It was only a temporary ban to be fair, but still. It's disappointing that someone thought it appropriate to lambast a designer because they'd accidentally missed out a cabside door handle (as the model is now out in the open) on an item they've made available at a marginal cost, essentially as a scratchbuilding aid - to paraphrase two eloquent views above. They even fixed it when it was pointed out to them, and sent the complainer a replacement.

I think people are more expressing surprise at not test printing a model full stop, rather than not test printing when they've had a request to up/down scale a model, which is wholly reasonable. I must admit I'd assumed most people were doing things they personally wanted, and as such would have test printed, but I hadn't particularly considered people doing it purely for the enjoyment of designing - as Rue' has said. I'm personally grateful there are people designing these things, I've bought a fair few 3D printed models (most of which languish on my workbench still!), and have personally never had an issue that couldn't be resolved easily. I got banned from another forum for being quite vocal after someone blasted a minescule inaccuracy on a 3D printed model and said they'd be submitting a PayPal claim to get a refund!

I've said it before that the market is fickle, and things that go on to trade for frankly exorbitant sums are often poor sellers early on. There's also a curious oddity that often one variant of a model will go for peanuts, whilst others command huge prices. Intercity Swallow 86s were being punted out cheap (I bought one from a shop for £50), then they became huge desirable and were going for £180+, meanwhile Dapol continued to sell the EWS and Speedlink Distribution ones for £50, it makes no sense, you could buy a cheap one and get it repainted! The Colas 56s seem to have been similarly unaffected - and seem to have strong residual value, whilst the sectorisation models are being heavily discounted. I agree that the 350 was maybe 'ahead of its time' insofar as its obvious bedfellows were not available RTR. I know a few people who've snapped them up to accompany the Pendolino; it's hard to say whether that's because they're cheap or whether people would have paid (closer to) retail at this point. Then again... Pretendolino mk3 sets are now far more valuable than they once were, and the same holds true.

I'm not even sure I understand the point. Do you mean suppressing demand by only offering 250 class 66s and only in EWS livery, but doing that cheaper? I'm not sure manufacturers are intentionally chasing obscure prototypes - they are offering "more popular variants" by design, that's basic economics. Yes, they may miss the mark occasionally, although often (IMO) due to a peripheral issue rather than it actually being an unpopular prototype (weird colour on the 56s, inaccuracies on the sub classes portrayed, expensive DCC conversion on Farish 350s etc). Furthermore we're in the fortunate position that most of the things we're "crying out for" are increasingly obscure anyway - I've often never heard of half the stuff that comes out near the top of wishlists if it's outside my area of interest.

Yes, I thought the plan was to try things out with a modest n gauge layout, so you can apply the skills to your OO gauge behemoth? You basically now have two extremely ambitious layouts planned, simultaneously... If you worried about the time to build one of them then doubling up seems a very strange choice!

Mmm, that does look very good! The Finetrax is a great product if you're wanting bullhead track, I always keep abreast of Wayne's progress on the NGF. Still mulling it over (as I will likely continue to do so for some weeks/months/years!), but leaning toward code 55 rail on copper clad. Won't look as fine as Finetrax/Easitrac, but would mean I could use Peco plain track, and peco points in sidings etc, as I don't really mind them there and it would have a significant time advantage. Code 55 9mm roller gauges look to be easier to come by too, most of the code 40 ones seem to be for finescale. On looking more closely at my chosen location there are actually two double slips too, to my surprise, which again, I'm disinclined to try and handbuild due to my proliferation of thumbs!

It’s also very track heavy, with very limited scenery. Exactly what people have been gnashing their teeth over on here...

I didn't, and haven't, indeed I'd quite like to build a larger layout, despite not having got anywhere near 'finishing' mine. I'd have derived far less enjoyment from a smaller layout which may now be at a more advanced state of completion. YMMV.

Ah ha, so you use “tat” as a synonym for “expensive”. It’s an interesting tack. I’m struggling to see why you may have had posts deleted, with your level of diplomacy and well reasoned thought.

There's a reason a sticky thread like that doesn't exist, and it's because you simply cannot break down time estimates to that level of granularity. Junctionmad's example is a good one, but you can't time the laying of a point and say "right, laying a pair of points takes x minutes", and create some sort of matrix which tells you how long it'll take to build a layout. I use servos and Megapoints boards, having previously used solenoid motors, I personally don't find a difference in time to place a servo, but I make my own mounts (you can get some off the shelf ones from Merg among others, but many are quite expensive), which all takes time. I've not used a slow motion motor like a Cobalt or Tortoise, personally they were too expensive for the quantity I wanted/needed. I know a couple of people who've found Cobalts very frustrating though, and one piece of kit not working can amount to the loss of many hours. All that said, some of my points have probably taken 15 minutes all in to lay and wire up, whilst others have probably taken 6 hours if you discover the alignment's not quite right, or the point is problematic, or the motor is faulty, or any number of variables that can affect it. You can't place any sort of accurate estimate on time - assuming the odd evening and a bit of weekend work I'd reckon on at least 5 years to get your plan to a place where track is laid and it's wired up. Probably the same again for ballasting and scenery, and then a lifetime of making slight 'improvements' to it.

To be fair, Steiff are one of the oldest and most respected toy makers in the world. You may think it’s hugely overpriced, but it’s not “utter tat”. No doubt some collectors will lap it up As for people dismissing it on a forum about toy trains... my ironymeter just exploded!

Apologies, you're quite right, I'm mixing units. 3 hours/m is probably about right, but again, plain track really needn't take long, whilst pointwork can. If you have permanent baseboards, so you're trying to do everything upside down, that's harder. If you happen to be installing a motor near a cross member (ideally design your baseboards to avoid this), and close to other motors, that's significantly harder than having a board you can simply invert, and work on at a comfortable height. If you add in restrictions like a split-level design that's even worse!

That was 6 months of two people working 3 nights per week, so I'm not sure that extrapolation stands up when you try and break it down to that level of granularity. I'd say it's more like: - 2 people - 12 man hours/week - 26 weeks of work - 312 man hours of work Or c1 man hour per meter of track, which I'd say is quick, but definitely more realistic than 2.5 days per metre. Laying plain track can be very quick - a lot of block detection modules (something like the Digikeijs DR4088 modules) just necessitate the connection of a single feed going into the module, once you've got a bus set up then attaching droppers can be quick. Conversely, if you're having to do lots of point motors in cramped conditions, and add in microswitches then it's probably far slower. You're being unnecessarily aggressive though, again, you've made your points very clear (although some have been contradicted). Why do you keep shouting at the OP that he's going to fail?

IME the effect of curves on haulage is greatly overstated by some. In reality I find the effect to be minescule. Gradients clearly do impact, but on the flat... not particularly worthy of consideration. The problem is how you give the advice, you've got my back up, and I'm not even the target of your 'advice'! You come across as the holder of the gospel, and woe betide anyone who goes against that. Maybe the OP will fail, and give up in 5 years having no run a single train, but that's his prerogative.

I think you've made your point that you think he's a madman and should build a shunting plank instead! Phil's cross sectional plan looks excellent - I agree with him that anything other than very simple covered track is asking for trouble. Stuff stalling will be enough of an irritation (as it'll be hard to clean the track that's probably quite likely), but having to align and wire up point motors, let along dealing with a derailment when one occurs at some point will be a massive pain.

That looks good! Pretty much just a case of waiting! As you say, runs are small and they come and go. The Dapol HSTs are in demand, so second hand prices are high. Mk3 coaches come up often, but frustratingly, as is often the case with Dapol, silly livery errors mean they often don't match (there are at least 3 different shades of grey for the roofs). The Farish 50 is a very old model, and doesn't really look like a 50, better waiting for Dapol's recently resumed model, due late this year (really H2 next say I'd guess at!). 47s are current, and drip fed onto the market by Farish, with reasonable stock second hand. I think there's an IC Executive one which is current, not sure about Swallow. Mk2Ds are on the way at some point from Farish, long overdue. Re-numbering is definitely feasible. That said... running numbers being so much smaller it's also harder to spot duplicates! I know I've got a couple, but have to really check to remind myself which they are.

A 36-wagon MGR train is about 8' or 2430mm, so yes, a little short.

Corrrr! Loving those HSTs. Looking great.

The inference is that yes, anything but plain track is likely to cause problems. Whilst I conceptually agree, insofar as shorts and derailments will basically never occur on plain track, as long as you test while you go, rather than spending 5 years laying track only to find there’s a short somewhere, it’s a total non-issue. There’s a way to wire up points, you get it right or you don’t. If you don’t, you look at why and you do it again. The size of the layout and ‘complexity’ Is moot. A crossover, or ladder of crossovers is no more difficult to lay or install than a single point. There’s no great skill to laying track that works, and again, if you’re unhappy then just re-lay it. I relaid one set of curves as I’d left too much space between them, it looked daft. I relaid another curve as it was a bit too tight. I relaid a fiddle yard road because the entrance was a bit abrupt. Nothing about these was caused by the size of my layout, nor were they ‘issues’ I’d have avoided by building a smaller layout first. None were expensive to resolve, didn’t havr liability insurance implications ‘or worse’, they were just part of the learning experience.

Bit melodramatic in the context of building a model Railway! You make mistakes, you learn from them. Simple.

You can do anything wrong the first time, or at least to a standard you believe can be improved subsequently. Simple or not.

Nothing overly complicated in that plan... what are you seeing? Scissor crossings, reverse loops, they’re not inherently complex. I disagree that there’s huge amounts of skill involved in laying ‘complex junctions’ (ie a handful of RTR products laid adjacent to each other). If you lay it and it doesn’t work you try again. How will building a BLT develop any skills which you can’t learn on a bigger layout? How does that help with installing a reverse loop module? Itself maybe 5 minutes of work. Personally I’d make it a roundy-roundy in some capacity, I agree, but I still don’t see an issue with the OP starting with a larger layout, just because it’s not the norm.

It’s conventional wisdom. It’s not law. Not everyone wants the same thing. Even if the OP does discover that some years down the line I don’t quite get the animosity, people have said “not what I’d do”, isn’t that enough? He can do with that information as he pleases. Some are dangerously close to projecting their own wants onto the OP.