jjb1970

I think Andy Y hit the nail on the head, this may be something much more significant than moves by retailers into commissioning or niche producers but the first step of a mass market competitor to Hornby and Bachmann. There is an interesting paradox in that whilst Oxfordrail see a market opportunity (and very clearly you don't make this sort of investment without first doing a lot of work to establish the market receptiveness and size) others (me included) think that there may be a shake out approaching. Interesting.

Sounds like the old Hornby 8F!

The yellow warning panel is one of those things which is low cost and is considered useful by many of those who it was intended to assist such as track workers therefore I really see no valid reason to remove it other than objections based on aesthetics. If track workers find it is still valuable then it should be retained, personally I think the yellow end add a splash of brightness and colour to trains and like it.

Hello all, I was linked to this page by Switcher 1 and am happy to see coarse scale on RMWeb! I find these models to be really very charming and at the risk of sounding childish I love playing with trains. I have a seven year old boy and I have thought about getting a little coarse O trainset type set up for us both to enjoy playing with. I have OO/HO and Japanese N but the robustness and play value of coarse O would be ideal for him I think. I know some dismiss these as "yoys" but to most of the population all model trains up to the most expensive fine scale master pieces are toys and there is nothing wrong whatsoever in enjoying playing trains in my book and the very robust nature and simplicity of the models is pretty much a big part of why I think it'd be a nice toy to play with as father and son.

The CX turbo was a proper Q car, very punchy performance.

The question is not whether people want or do not want accurate models, I may be making a big assumption here but I'll go out on a limb and say everybody on this board wants their models to be accurate. The question is sensitivity to inaccuracy and what constitutes an acceptable standard. That is a subjective, personal decision which varies greatly. At a certain level if people do not recognise inaccuracies (keeping in mind many people model subjects they never saw in service and that seeing the prototype in a museum is not the same) then such inaccuracies are probably irrelevant. Another position is to recognise the faults but make a reasoned judgement of cost and whether it looks good. There is a huge range of opinions and positions on this topic. I see very few modelsthat can not be criticised at some level if you really want to, including high end kit built models. I think we all want manufacturers to learn from experience and improve, however it is legitimate for some modellers to hold a position that whilst recognising faults it is still a nice model that looks like the real thing. Over the years I've bought plenty of models that have been at the recieving end of all sorts of criticism which has actually been fully justified criticism (recent examples include the Hornby OO big tanks and 4VEP) and yet when I look at them on a layout I think that when all is said and done they're nothing like as bad as the analysis might suggest and they give me a lot of pleasure. I have no issue with people deciding not to buy a model because it is not up to their minimum standard, I also have no issue with those who take a looser approach, and I suspect most of us are somewhere in the grey zone in wanting accuracy but accepting models not perfect and actually being happy with them. And as with anything, peoples expectations are linked to price. At a certain level you get what you pay for and most accept that a value for money RTR model will be different to a high end brass kit or brass RTR. I think the Hornby P2 is demonstrating that many modellers will accept a model built down to a cost with compromises is price is low and it looks right.

This may be a topic for another thread but something I am finding uite interesting is what is the future direction of Hornby with regards detail etc? In a recent blog SK seemed to say that their step back from some of the more esoteric and high end features was for the long term. After the debacle of design clever it does appear that Hornby were gaining a much better appreciation of where costs could be cut and where they needed to retain details. This King is returning to the features and mechanism of their previous high end models. Is this because it is being funded (even partially?) by Steam or is it a reversal or their reversal on such features? I'm sure some will say it is just a response to the DJ/Hattons model but that is not a realistic position given the relative timings of each announcement. The P2 has demonstrated that it is possible to make a model down to a budget and retain enough positives to retain the interest of modellers. The Crosti 9F is in the Railroad range but looking at the sample models it looks more than good enough to cut the mustard as a serious model. So Hornby seem to be developing a potentially very attractive range of models which are maybe taking Railroad out of the toy category into the budget model category and aimed at the enthusiast market (and yes, I know that to most these are all toys). Their Drummond 700 and D16/3 sample pictures appear to show mainstream models which whilst maybe not as good as Hornby could make them are nothing like the design clever attempts of the large tanks. In the real world I really believe that a three pole motor is as good as a five pole one to all intents and purposes and some of the esoteric features are nice to have but not noticeable on a layout. These really seemed to me to be finding quite a sweet spot in terms of a featuresl/price compromise. Now we have the King which is a return to full fat. Perhaps SK will elaborate on his blog, but is it possible we are seeing the emergence of a three tier range? Railroad - entry level no frills good models Main range - good models with good detail but down spec mechanism and losing some finer features Halo models - top end models to retain their image as a premium producer No idea, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out in the months ahead.

Agree on this. I do not plan to pre-order and I'm willing to take the risk of missing out but I think that is a small enough risk I am not worried.

We have moved on slightly from last week in that it now appears (contrary to my expectations) that Hornby are making a "full fat" King with brass bearings, 5 pole motor, high end back head detail and the sort of detail they were doing five years ago however ultimately it is still a case of two manufacturers announcing a King at the same time. Whereas before the weekend I was expecting the Hornby to be a lower end (but hopefully still very good) model it now looks as if both models will be aiming for the same high end market with a product built to a spec rather than price. I've no idea which will be delivered first or which will be better (although it looks like the Hornby project is well advanced) and am very excited about being in a potentially happy position of having to decide between two excellent models.

Things just got very interesting....... Is Hornby returning to their glory days of 5 years ago? Is this a one off lap of honour bank rolled by Steam or testing the markets willingness to pay for the sort of quality of those halycon days? Are we seeing a split where Rairoad becomes a budget range of genuine models which will be good enough for serious modellers whilst trying to keep things affordable, a middle tier of well detailed models but with de-spec mechanisms for the main market and the occasional halo model? Whatever this means I think the CAD's are illustrative that this is not just a kneejerk to the DJ/Hattons model and that they've been working on it for some time.

This looks terrific for a Railroad model and provided the paint finish (and there's not a lot for them to do on that with a 9F!) this looks more than good enough for me to buy and be very happy with. Given it is not the sort of choice I imagine will be top of many train set want lists or the sort of passing trade wanting a Flying Scotsman I found it odd they did this as a Railroad model rather than as a main range model however I am extremely happy they are doing a Crosti 9F and if the Railroad model cuts the mustard as a good model regardless of being in the downspec range then I guess we should pay a bit less than the alternative and still get a good model so all good.

We have one manufacturer (Heljan) who have made their own niche making short lived, sometimes one off prototype and pilot scheme diesels so I'd imagine that nothing is too limited or obscure to be of interest on that basis provided a manufacturer is confident the models will sell.

I think (assuming Hornby are making a new King, still TBC...) then there is no reason both models cannot do well. I would expect both to be positioned differently in the market in several ways, Hattons will almost certainly make many more variants whereas the Hornby one will be much more widely available. On price, quality etc nobody knows how they will compare. Looking at SK's last blog it would appear that Hornby remain committed to their policy of compromising on certain features to control cost inflation for the long term. Looking at pre-release pictures of the Drummond 700 and D16/3 they do now seem to be getting a much better understanding of where to compromise and where to retain details. On current form we can expect a Hornby model to have a three pole motor, basic zinc alloy cut outs for bearings etc. There is no doubt this is a step backwards from their five pole skew wound motor etc but the more pertinent question is what effect does this have in the real world? From what I can see the real difference in performance is nothing like as significant as the noise about these changes around the forums. On detail, all we can do is speculate, but given that the existing King is not a bad model (although certainly it is basic next to current releases) it would be completely senseless for them or Steam to bankroll development of a new model unless it was better in a meaningful way unless they were going for a real down spec Railroad version. And I really cannot see Steam going for that. On delivery, yes Hornby have had a dire period but they do seem to be turning a corner and all of the manufacturers have had issues with supply. On QC, call me very lucky but all of the Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol and Heljan models I've bought have been fine. From time to time models come with detached detail parts but they're easy to put back in place and it is pretty much inevitable that this will happen from time to time if we want these fine parts factory fitted. This could mean I am extraordinarily lucky or it may mean that the QC afflictions of all the manufacturers (and look at the different forums on this section and you see plenty of QC whinges about all the manufacturers) are perhaps not as bad as the Internet can make them appear. At the moment I see no evidence to support any suggestions that either the Hornby or DJ/Hattons version will be either less susceptible to QC issues or to development delays. On engagement, I do expect DJM to have far superior engagement with the public, that is something that DJ is particularly good at and he deserves our admiration for that. Equally, Hornby are no different to other large model suppliers in not inviting the sort of engagement that small niche players like DJ and Rapido do. Does that make these small players better? In some ways yes, but I really do not see it as a particular problem with the bigger players either. On pre-order, I will wait and see. This may be a risk but I am happy to take the chance of missing out so that I can see what the models are like and then decide to buy. Given the number of variants being produced by Hattons and the past record of Hattons models I am really not worried about missing out by not pre-ordering. Ditto with Hornby, models may sell out very quickly but I still find that the models can still be bought without having to pre-order. Given that we have zero evidence on which will be better, how much the Hornby model will cost (and given things with China I'm taking the Hattons price with a pinch of salt at the moment) and when there are two competing models coming out I'd rather wait and see. Will I buy a King? Yes. More than one? Almost certainly. However I'll wait to judge which ones to buy once I see the models and really have no inherent leaning towards either Hornby or DJM as I have nothing against either and think both are worthy of our support.

If any manufacturer has commenced a project to model something and a competitor announces the same prototype then it makes absolute sense to move a public announcement forward. I've no idea how far either manufacturer is into their project, if they've already spent quite a bit of money then they're unlikely to walk away however if there has been no real spend yet then they can make an assessment of whether it is worth continuing if the same model is to be done by a rival. At the moment we are seeing a lot of comment around the Internet about models that haven't been built yet and about which nobody has even seen a CAD other than Hornby spoilers (and even this assumes Hornby are doing a King). We don't know how the models will compare, one may be a lot better, they may both be pretty much the same or one may be a bit better but more expensive in which case people may consider the cheaper alternative the better buy. Who knows, there are all sorts of scenarios and at the moment we are seeing arguments about a teaser from Hornby and an announcement from DJ/Hattons. I have confidence that both can make a great model and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we end up with two fantastic King models. A year ago I'd have said that purely based on the then current performance of Hornby, the issues with design clever and poor supply etc that I'd expect the DJ/Hatton to be the one more likely to be both a better model and to be delivered sooner. However in recent weeks Hornby finally seem to have started delivering models and the images of some of the new tooling indicate they're emerging from their troubled period with some fine models. So now I really would not like to speculate on which, if either, will be the better option. Only time will tell.

The existing Hornby King exists in that grey zone where it is clearly not the best King you could make and so it should be the case that a new King will have clear blue water between it and the old one yet at the same time it is not a bad model and is still more than good enough to sell as a lower cost model. Assuming it is indeed sold at low cost, it is past punching its weight as a main range model I think.

Bring both models on. I have nothing against either manufacturer, the Heljan models I've bought have all been beautiful runners (better than most of my other models) and superbly finished. I know they drop a few klangers but when they get it right their models are excellent. Equally I have every confidence the DJM offering will be a good'un. I'll wait and make a decision which to go for when they're released, indeed I can see myself ending up with both.

Dear me, talk about buses!! If Hornby are doing a new King and are dropping a spoiler folling the DJM/Hattons announcement then it is great news for GWR fans. If Hornby know that DJM are going out to make a model with the wow factor then somehow I don't think Hornby will do this to Railroad standards, especially when their existing King is more than good enough to sell as a Railroad model at a discount. Given the track record of DJ at Dapol (Western, NBL Type 2, Beattie well tank etc) I also believe the DJM/Hattons model will be a cracking model. This could be very interesting, and if it is true (and given we have already seen Heljan and DJM both announce a competing release, the LMS diesels from Bachmann and Dapol/Hattons etc it seems a fairly common occurence to get duplicate releases) then the real winner will be GWR enthusiasts.

I take the point on the availability of S/H models as an alternative to kit building and also a pool of less expensive models. That is certainly a great resource although I've tended to find properly good kit built models are generally not cheap and there is always that concern at how good the kit builder has been. If you buy from a trusted dealer then the dealer can often give a pretty good opinion of kit built models they've bought in S/H (good dealers tend to appreciate that gilding the lily so to speak to offload stinkers to the uninformed is counter productive long term) or at least warn you that it is kit built and sold as seen but I'd be more hesitant about buying kit built models via EBay and other such sources. If you can see the model then you can make your own decision about what you think of it, ask to see a test track run etc,unless there are good high res pictures from a number of angles it is hard to get the same feel if buying mail order. Alternatively, if you know who built it then that may give you enough confidence to buy. I know there are buyer protection schemes but those can get a bit messy. I also wasn't that impressed by the Heljan Mk.1 coaches but I have found some of their diesels to be very well done when admiring them when bought by friends. They seem to run well and the finish is good. Haven't had the pleasure of seeing the Ixion models in the flesh yet but they get good reviews. I have a few times wavered and been close to succumbing to some of the Heljan diesels but have resisted so far. My worry is where it could go cost wise, much as I'd love to indulge myself with O gauge I can't afford to and I fear if I did buy a 47 or Western or something it'd be the start of a long and slippery road I'd rather avoid at the moment at least.

The railroad thing is confusing me a bit as looking at this and also the pics of the crosti 9F in Hornby Magazine they seem to have narrowed the differential between railroad and top line models to the point where there doesn't seem to be that much difference. Not saying that is a bad thing if railroad are offering bargain slightly de-spec versions of models that'd be considered perfectly acceptable to most modelers but I am a bit confused by how it will all fit together.

I think the big question is to what extent a range of affordable RTR can grow the hobby. If the O gauge hobby remains static in terms of numbers then I suspect this will be quite a short experiment from Dapol or alernatively their prices will go up to compensate for low volumes. If they can grow the market which appears to be one of the underpinning ideas for this foray into O then existing demand scenarios are not really relevant. Whether they will succeed in creating new demand will be shown in time, I really do not know. I hope they do, there are a lot of modellers who would love to do something in O but are put off by the costs and having to work with kits for almost everything. By going for small prototypes suitable for a small low-ish cost first attempt at doing O I think they have made a sensible choice if they want to grow the market by hooking new entrants. If you buy one of these and a few RTR wagons to make a little end to end or O gauge micro layout (micro being very much a relative term in O......) then it still won't be cheap but it is within the realms of many thinking "I'll have a go and see how it goes.." and if it doesn't go well they can sell the stock (even if they don't get much for it) and aren't risking ending up with a few half built kits. If they can get people on this hook then it could really grow O gauge and the kit manufacturers should benefit greatly as some of those people look beyond what they can buy RTR. Heljan seem to have found a nice niche for their RTR O gauge models although they decided on a very different strategy in going for modern diesels and jumping straight into big main line trains rather than building up from small stuff.

Hornby have been very open about their change of direction towards pulling back on high end features to try and reduce price inflation. Switching from a 5 pole to a 3 pole motor is part of that and if manufacturers were trying to cut costs it is probably one of the better places to start given that in the real world most customers probably won't notice a difference and when their main rival uses 3 pole motors without recieving complaints or suffering loss of sales for it. Whether or not people support this move towards a different detail-price balance is another question entirely but at least Hornby have been very open about it so their customers are aware of it.

As with many things the more relevant questions are not so much whether a 5 pole skew wound motor is better than a 3 pole motor (it is) but whether the 3 pole motor offers acceptable performance and whether the chassis is a good design. My own experience tends to indicate that whilst a 5 pole skew wound motor is better that in the real world models with 3 poles motors work perfectly well and that the chassis design (pick ups, weight, balance, bearings etc) has a bigger and more noticeable effect.

That is a bit of a misrepresentation. For a start, I don't think anybody is happy with inaccuracy, everybody wants a model to look like the prototype and that infers at least some degree of accuracy. People make a decision on where to compromise between what is acceptable and absolute accuracy, considering running quality, accuracy, cost, availability, robustness and probably lots more. Every model is a compromise at some level and I see very, very few models that can not be criticised at some level if you really want to find fault. If the model looks like a good representation of the prototype many are willing to make their own judgement of whether or not it is acceptable based on their own sensitivities to things like cost and realism. If you are at the extreme end of wanting the highest level of accuracy then that is your choice and you have every right to be of that opinion just as others have every right to decide that for £200 RTR they can accept the model not being perfect. Nobody objects to criticism of any model, what I think people dislike is criticism which becomes intolerant of any other opinion. What is rubbish? I would bet money that this RTR Terrier will be better finished and run better than many kit built models that admittedly have the potential to be better than the Dapol version. On leaving alone, I agree that if you are not happy with the model then you should be left alone to not buy it, the converse is true and people that see this for what it is, a nice good value little model which is a nice way to dip a toe into O gauge should be left alone to enjoy it without being dismissed as idiots who are happy with any old rubbish.

Indeed, the Western was an outstanding model that is not just a fine Dapol model, it is one of the finest OO diesel models period. The NBL Type 2's were also very well done. Some of their N Gauge models have been extremely good too but they do seem to be inconsistent at times and veer between the very good and models that leave room for improvement.

These really do look very promising and a lot better than I suspect many expected after some of the recent new models from Hornby and their "design clever" ideas. If Hornby have found a sweet spot between reducing some detail to keep price increases under control whilst retaining enough detail and a good quality of finish to satisfy most of their customers which looks to be the case just looking at the pics in this thread then they may very well have found a very nice position in the market. £110 for a newly tooled model is pretty acceptable if the model lives up to the promise of the pictures.