Nick Holliday

Regarding your third option of roof vents, have you looked at the MJT Range at Dart Castings or Wizard? The latter's GWRC040 looks a possible match. Comet also have a range, but no pictures at the moment. Looking at the Phoenix vent, the flattening seems to be in the wrong plane for your requirements, although I suspect that the examples you have chosen are not actually prototypical - the lower roof in the photo looks like a simplified Mk1 carriage roof moulding, and doesn't look too much like the item it is supposed to represent, and I am not sure of the provenance of the upper roof at all, and I doubt if anything exactly like them appeared on UK rolling stock. That roof brings to mind the old Lima GWR Horse Box whose roof was covered in a veritable forest of conical ventilators - beautifully mounded but totally fictitious!

Marsh, the locomotive engineer on the LBSCR (not Southern just yet) had just arrived from the GNR where he had been assistant to Ivatt, the designer of the original Atlantics. Marsh was under some pressure to revitalise the Brighton's mainline services, and he probably obtained drawings from Doncaster and tweaked them a bit before sending them off to Kitsons (OTTOMH) to plug the gap. His suburban Atlantic tanks were also a bit of homage to Ivatt's design, but in this case his tweaks did not improve the loco at all, resulting in a disappointing series of classes, redeemed by the I3 class for express use, which were heavily based on his predecessor, Billinton's tender locos.

Since the Bachmann Atlantic is OO gauge, are we entering the rather different field of 16mm modelling? It's interesting that this would highlight the narrowness of the 16.5mm gauge. For this larger scale, the 15" gauge should be 20mm, 16.5 representing a measly 12 1/2 inches, showing that these miniature locos were not exactly to scale either.

Part of the problem is that the gauge of the RHDR is 15 inch, roughly a quarter of standard gauge, but Greenly, typically, designed the locos as approximately one third full size. This at least gave the driver a bit more room, although I suspect that most of the accommodation is provided by the tenders, which are much, much longer and mounted on bogies. Hence the best fit would be using an N gauge loco on a 6mm scale layout, but as there are not many of those about, I suspect that it would work best as an O Gauge scene, but that would make the diver even larger to get in! Maybe some S Scale figures would help here.

My ever-thoughtful wife picked up some old "Railway Magazines" at a charity shop, and in one of them, December 1960, a similar question was posed - "Brighton Belle" Sets at Waterloo, and the answer was: "It was suggested in our November notes and news that the "Brighton Belle" Pullman electric set used to convey a party from Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour on September 6, (presumably 1960) in connection with the launching at Cowes of the steamer Sarnia, was probably the first visit to the Western Section of the Southern Region of this type of train. However Mr. Alan M. Teatherton points out that a similar set was provided for the official party at the launching of the sister ship Caesarea on January 29 of this year (1960 again?). Mr. H. C. Hughes writes that a "Brighton Belle" set was used to convey the Queen (then Princess Elizabeth) from Waterloo to Portsmouth on July 6, 1951." (I do like the formality of the use of Mr. and middle initials - there cannot have been many Teathertons lining up to contribute!)

The Brighton E2's look tempting, but, considering the liberties taken by Hornby and Wills to make theirs fit a standard chassis, can you confirm that these have been based on accurate drawings, and the extended tank version is prototypically longer than the initial type? And what are the differences between these and the freelance version you have called E2X?

Having contributed my two-pennyworth right at the beginning of this topic, I have rather lost the plot with regard to the myriad of plans appearing and being discussed, so I might be talking about the wrong scheme, but... To my mind the number of short sidings that seem to be proposed is a waste of space and resources. In Chimer's proposal there are at least 5 sidings which are less than 12 inches long. By the time you have made a realistic allowance for the point itself, and established a clearing point for passing traffic, not to mention allowing for the necessary buffer stop, I reckon you'd be hard pushed to park one wagon inside it. I know this could occasionally occur on the real thing, but usually for a good reason, and, as far as I can see, the area is meant to be a general yard. Far better to prune most of them, saving several points and buffers, and actually leaving you with greater siding space.

If shunting is your particular thing, it might be worth investigating the two classic shunting layouts, Inglenook and Timesaver. As these are designed with a view to making shunting challenging, they could make the whole process more interesting. Having a large yard could mean that all you are doing is meaninglessly moving long rakes of wagons too and fro, whereas these puzzle layouts can give a better sense of purpose. http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/Timesaver/timesaver-trackplan.html has details of both designs and outlines rules for operation. I would be inclined to set up a timesaver using set track and playing with that to see if it is what you are after. I wouldn't get too ambitious until you know more about what you really want. I would also endorse others suggestions to try to see more layouts at exhibitions for inspiration, but always trying to bear in mind the space you have available, and not expecting to squash a quart into a pint pot. One of the dangers of this is ending up with sidings and loops that are so short they serve no actual purpose, and often less is more. (I see this crossed with Steven B's very similar advice)

The loco is one of Robert Billinton's (Note - not Billington with a G) rather feeble B2 class, still in Stroudley livery. From the look of the name it may be 324 John Hawkshaw, and, if so, the photo was taken before 1906, when it received a columnar safety valve casing, and might even be earlier, as there doesn't seem to be any numbering on the buffer beam, and the head code brackets seem to be the earlier configuration.I apologise for the use of the name Express, although the majority of writers about the train use it. In the 1912 timetable the advertisement definitely calls it the Sunny South Special, and it ran every week day from June to September. The actual timings had trains leaving from either end around 11 in the morning, arriving at their destination around 6:30 pm. The train is described as "Consisting of Corridor Coaches and a Luncheon and Tea Car", which the LBSC wouldn't have been able to provide. Portions started from Liverpool, Manchester, Hastings, Eastbourne and Brighton. Some L&YR stations such as Blackburn and Burnley were also served, but I don't know if they ever supplied any coaches for the service.

The SECR built some composite brakes in 1907 for this type of service, as produced by Roxey Mouldings. The LBSC had few coaches that could be used for long distance runs, with only a handful having gangway connections (or toilets!)

I've never heard of LBSC stock travelling northwards - The Sunny South Express, as its name suggests, ran south to the resorts in the morning, and returned in the evening, there not being a great deal of traffic wanting to travel in the opposite direction at those times. The use of the Atlantic tank of I3 class was indeed a trial to demonstrate the benefits of superheating, and an un-superheated LNWR 4-4-0 was used for comparison. The tank was able to run from the south to Rugby on one tank of water and its relatively small coal bunker, whereas I believe the tender loco had to fill up along the way. However there were a few other occasions when LNWR locos traversed the system, at least as far as Lewes, with many incursions in the London area. Probably due to wartime considerations GWR locos worked goods trains, with pilotmen, through to Redhill. As a one-off the GWR royal train was used to transport a poorly Edward VII from Victoria to Portsmouth to convalesce on the Isle of Wight in 1902. PS the album is John Kite's 1850-1925 Vintage Album, the third serious railway book I bought, when I was a teenager, and it is full of wonderful images that opened my eyes to the scope of pre-grouping railways.

The current kits that are vaguely similar are from High Level, an elderly Black Hawthorn, and a more modern Hudswell Clarke. K's did the TVR Hudswell Clarke, an older and, I think, smaller one than High Level, same comments might apply as per the MR kit, but the resemblance is much closer. Chivers did the Wantage Manning Wardle with a much more substantial cab, but that kit is hard to find second-hand. Perhaps an RT Models Manning Wardle 0-6-0 might be easier to locate, and they did operate in the area-ish.

Can't seem to post an address for this, but our friend Gostude is dabbling in Gauge 1 and has this GAUGE 1 SCRATCH KIT BUILT SOUTHERN SR LBSC 0-6-0 CLASS E2 TANK LOCO 2104 at nearly £1,000. Unfortunately, painting the number of an E2 onto an 0-6-0 tank doesn't make it an E2, and at nearly a grand, I'd want it at least to look the part - SIMPLY STUNNING - Indeed!

Having cruelly exposed your slightly non-standard lining on Dieppe, with regard to the smokebox, perhaps I can make amends with this detail from a sister LBSC Single, Norwood, which is lined exactly as you have done it. At least, if any other smart Alec like me tries to criticise, you have an answer.

Hassocks seems to be a rather sprawling station. One location I have always liked the look of is Burgess Hill. I think the polychromatic brick station building is still there, conveniently on an over bridge for modelling purposes. It is some time since I last was there, but the goods shed and several other buildings were around then. You might be interested in the scenario I have been developing for my own layout, unfortunately very much in the future, so I am happy to share the idea. In 1853 the railway contractor Thomas Brassey built a new line from Godalming, south of Guildford, to Havant, to reach Portsmouth. Neither the LBSCR or the LSWR were originally prepared to get involved, but the SECR forced the pace, and the LSWR bought it in 1858 and the famous Battle of Havant ensued. But I imagine that the LBSCR had bought the line, the Portsmouth Direct, and then there would have been the battle of Godalming instead. Parliament would have made the warring companies make certain concessions, so that the LBSC would be able to get to Guildford, and if we allow the LSWR to retain their line to Godalming, as a terminus, that gives rise to some interesting situations, as the track would, theoretically belong to the LSWR, and the LBSCR would only have running rights. In this situation the south eastern leg of the Shalford triangle that was constructed as an earthwork, but never had track laid, could be brought into play, with the SER being able to run trains towards Portsmouth, over the new line. The construction of the Horsham to Guildford line in 1865 would then prompt the construction of a Brighton junction station at Peasmarsh, which could then receive services off the SER and have the LSWR Godalming services running through, perhaps non-stop, as the old Epsom station. This altered situation would probably mean that the Horsham to Petworth line of 1859 would have eventually been extended to Petersfield instead of stopping at Midhurst around 1866, giving an interesting network for later motor trains between Guildford and Horsham by various routes. On the north side I think the Brighton would have co-operated with the LSWR and the joint Epsom to Leatherhead line of 1867 would have been extended later, perhaps 1885, to meet the new LSWR line from Surbiton to Guildford. This might finally, with suitable running powers, give the Brighton an alternative through route between London and Portsmouth bringing in to play proper express trains with Pullmans or even the Royal Train. Sorry to ramble, but this would give the opportunity to run all three Southern main line companies on the same tracks, without bending reality more than the average Doctor Who script.

Just for the record, my model of Fittleworth is based upon the real station, at something like 70% of its full length to meet the Scalefour Challenge. Peter's wonderful layout only makes use of the name.Thanks for the various compliments regarding my attempt.

I built one of these in P4, as can be glimpsed in a recently posted view of my Fittleworth layout in the Pre-Grouping Layouts thread, and it is a lovely kit. I think you will need to consider how the rear bogie is going to work, as I seem to recall it is just a cast metal item, with a loose fixing to the chassis. As can be seen from your photos of the chassis it is already unbalanced off the driving wheels, and the cast body is going to make matters worse, although you could replace the roof with plastic to help a bit. I can't recall the precise details but I tried to construct a compensated bogie, which is supported from the chassis from an extra cross-member, along the lines of a coach chassis. You may lose a bit of weight on the drivers, but this should stop it rocking on the trailing driver.

I hate to be a killjoy regarding your superb workmanship, but, generally, with the Stroudley livery the boiler band which butts up against the smoke box is narrower than the rest, missing out the final fine lines and going right up to the black smoke box, and this can be seen, just, in your prototype photo, and on your earlier D1 tank. However, I do have a photo of another Craven single, Norwood, which is exactly as yours, so perhaps this justifying it.

I am surprised you cannot find S and C transfers. POWsides do several, covering both the early style you're after, as well as the later large side lettering. In addition Roxey Mouldings can provide rub-down transfers to go with their dumb-buffered S&C wagon kit, originally from Burgundy's fabled Woodham Wagon Works range.

RAF Kinloss MRC have the list

Sorry to be a little late on this one, but I couldn't help but notice that both the Parkside and Geen kits have included the slotted adjustment rails for the moveable partition on both sides of the door. This makes sense from a production point of view, since only one mould is needed, but, to the best of my knowledge, only one adjuster would be required, at one end of the wagon, with just the single moveable partition. This can be clearly seen on the two prototype photos, so some careful cutting and filing work would appear necessary, I'm afraid, before painting. I am surprised this isn't mentioned in their respective instructions.

One of my reasons for querying the diameter is that I have some ten spoke wheels of that diameter but the spokes look more crowded than on the prototype, yet that had eleven spokes! That number of spokes suggest a larger diameter, and I was wondering if larger ones were fitted later. Three foot six inches is roughly the height of the buffers and to my eyes the wheels are slightly higher than that.

I have been watching the development of 3D printing with interest but have been rather sceptical about the quality. However a recent thread on a completely different topic made me look at the CD Design / Street Models website where, tucked away amongst Met A tanks and various GER tanks there was a delightful picture of the Millwall Extension Railway's minute Manning Wardle tank loco, and this discovery coincided with a "Post Free" weekend offer from Shapeways so I bit the bullet and sent off my order. Within a very surprisingly short period, a small box arrived on the doorstep, and inside were two very fine mouldings for the body and chassis with virtually everything included. I was very pleasantly surprised by the fine quality of the finish and the amount of detail such as the Westinghouse brake, the springs inside the cab and some details on the firebox back which will be a challenge to highlight in the painting stage, as the cab is incredibly small. In fact, the loco is probably the smallest mainline(ish) passenger loco on the standard gauge, and makes a Brighton Terrier look enormous. The finely detailed chassis would need a bit of fettling to fit, but looks fine for OO. However, as I would intend it to be in P4 I will need to create a separate chassis and probably just use the sides cosmetically. What will be the challenge is fitting a gearbox and motor and DCC decoder and getting enough ballast in the tiny space available. I think I can get a old Studiolith gearbox in with a Mashima 10/15 motor at a push, but I would welcome any suggestions. I need to track down the relevant MRJ somewhere in the loft to confirm wheel diameters (3' 6" and 2' 8" I think) before I order Gibson wheels, and I will have to investigate Archers rivets to provide the distinctive pattern on the side tanks. My one regret is that I ordered it in white, as the black version would mean that, for instance, the chassis, although needing painting, would not show any marks if scuffed, whereas the white will, no doubt, show through, but it looks so good in white I am not complaining.

Not the superheater trials. This was LNWR 969 a Prince of Wales 4-6-0, built in 1919, so well post war. It's on an Eastbourne train, according to the photographer G F Burtt. Just to add to the mix, and going a bit off-topic, don't forget that the SECR borrowed GNR and H&BR locos during the war. Another thought, Geoff Pember mentioned that the GER, over a period, provided six 0-4-4 and 12 0-6-0 tanks to serve on the military port at Richborough, and there may be other companies involved as well, and all of these would, I suspect, have travelled over SECR tracks to get there. And you might be able to add in some of the ROD requisitions as well, going via Newhaven, Folkestone or Dover.

The Edwin Course article is pretty comprehensive, but I thought the following tit-bits might be of interest. The short-lived Central Croydon station (as discussed before all the Croydon stations had their location as a prefix) was served by both the LNWR and GER passenger services running from Clapham and New Cross respectively. I am not sure if this was pure altruism on the Brighton’s part, as the station was, theoretically, close to the town centre, or to get these trains out of the main station as quickly as possible. It should be noted that various LNWR locos were photographed around the Brighton system, including at Lewes as well as in the London area. Geoffrey Pember in his treatise on GER 0-4-4 tank locomotives notes regarding Massey Bromley’s E10 class “But perhaps the best-known work on which these engines were engaged was that between Liverpool street and Croydon through the Thames Tunnel. For this duty five, Nos. 59, 101,233,586 and 588 were fitted with condensing apparatus. These were the first GE engines to be so fitted as the problem of smoke in the Bishopgate tunnels had not then become as serious as in later years when the service intensified and many more of the suburban tanks had to be fitted with the gear. As the Croydon service was infrequent the engines would act as East Side shunters between trips under the river.” Regarding the later S44 class (Holden/Russell) he notes “All the engines were fitted with condenser pipes …. and Up to the end of the war the class was used on East Side suburban services to Ilford as well as on the West Side. They also took trains from the East Side down through Brunel’s Thames Tunnel, passenger trains going to New Cross Gate and Croydon, and goods from Spitalfields to New Cross and the sidings at Hither Green for exchange with the South Eastern and Chatham. The LBSCR appendix to the working timetable 1922 notes: New Cross : G. E. Goods Depot – after completing his shunting in the GE Goods Depot, the Guard of the GE train must not allow his Train to be set back towards New Cross South Signal Box until he has first obtained verbal permission from the LB&SC Shunter in charge of the Upper Siding. The LBSC Working Timetable for 1918 has: Except on Saturdays, Special Goods Trains to and from the Great Northern System and Norwood Junction will work via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace. The Great Northern Trains will be worked between Ferme Park and Tulse Hill by GN Co.’s Engines and Men, and between Norwood Junction and Tulse Hill by the Brighton Co.’s Engines and Men, who will arrive at Tulse Hill with Trains of Empty Wagons from Norwood Junction. Approximate arrival at Tulse Hill 10.50 a.m., 11.20 a.m. 12. 5 p.m., 12.50 p.m., 1.35 p.m. and 2.5 p.m. The six loaded trains will run via West Norwood and Crystal Palace. The first two (empty) trains will run via Selhurst and Streatham and the last four via Crystal Palace. (24 empties and Brake) Special Foods trains to and from the Great Northern System and Streatham Common will work via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill and Streatham. The Great Northern Trains will be worked between Ferme Park and Streatham Common by G.N. Co.’s Engines and Men. (A more nocturnal service, with 5 or 6 trains a day, between an 8.10 p.m. arrival at Streatham to a 4.35 a.m. departure heading northwards.) It is noted that trains from Hornsey could load to 23 wagons including Brake heading south, if headed by an F. Class engine, or 19 wagons if and M Class engine in charge. When assisted by Banking Engine up Ludgate Hill these became 31 and 26 respectively. Trains from Ferme Park were limited to 20 wagons. Northbound it was 24 empty wagons plus brake.