wagonman

To answer Stephen's point, the Lightmoor Press series have to focus on the locally based wagons as to try to include all the visiting wagons from out of area would be an impossible task – if for no other reason than that there is no obvious source of data. In the Somerset book I did allude to both Renwick Wilton and G Bryer Ash as they had a considerable presence in the county, likewise the Forest of Dean collieries that were connected with Sully of Bridgwater (expanded in the Addendum). I will be looking in much greater detail at Renwick Wilton in the Devon & Cornwall volume, if I ever get it finished! Meanwhile a look at Len Tavender's Coal Trade Wagons will give some fascinating analysis of the reach of certain Midlands collieries – even into Sussex. Simon Turner's book on the LBSCR area PO wagons is currently at the printers. I will definitely be buying a copy! Richard

PO wagons were either owned outright, on deferred payments (HP) for a fixed number of years (most commonly 7 years, but 3 or 5 years were known), or they could be on simple hire by the month or the year. Wagons on short term hire would usually be painted in the wagon company's name. Wagon builders would provide the wagon fully painted and delivered to a colliery etc of the owners' choice. They would also sell repair contracts, commonly for 7 years also, which included a mid-term repaint – so PO wagons were often in better nick than railway company wagons. Many of the larger wagon builders pooled their repair facilities in 1918 under the name Wagon Repairs Ltd. Many of the bigger builders like Gloucester also did their own financing if required, though there were specialist wagon finance houses around too. They, or their successors, are still around as subsidiaries of major banking groups. Merchants' PO wagons tended to keep to regular routes shuttling between home and the nearest suitable colliery. Coal deliveries in colliery wagons were more varied but the receiving customer would be under pressure from demurrage charges to get the wagons unloaded and returned ASAP. There were also coal factors – wholesalers – acting as intermediary between colliery and smaller merchants. Many of them, like Stephenson Clarke, Renwick Wilton, etc, operated large fleets of wagons which could therefore appear almost anywhere. SC had a contract with the LSWR/SR for the supply of loco coal for instance. After the outbreak of WW2 the government pooled all but specialist PO wagons so they could and did appear anywhere, but in shabbier and shabbier condition. What was left in 1948 was taken into BR hands and worked out their days in almost bare wood finish! As someone else remarked further up the thread, there were at any one time upwards of half a million PO wagons in service – roughly the same as the number of company wagons. Then there is the matter of design evolution but that would be another long thread and life is too short. There is plenty of information out there but try not to approach it with a 21st Century mindset.

The 'X' is a cross – as in 'cross cornered brake'. Alles Klar?

Only when you're a wee bit pished...

I have no idea if they had a separate committee – I plucked that one out of thin air – but these matters must have been discussed somewhere lower down the food chain than the Board Room, such is the structure of such organisations. Has anyone studied the Loco Committee records? Russ? Apropos the WNR, and for that matter the Cwmtowy Mineral, inventing your own railway does solve a lot of problems.

What you say is true, but it must have been discussed somewhere even if only in the C&W Committee. It must have been decided by someone, somewhere, and communicated to the people who needed to know by something more concrete than telepathy! My understanding is that the confusion over carriage liveries is one of interpretation... I emphasise that I have not done any research in this field – I have always been looking for something else – but realise the possibility that records have been lost or destroyed.

I suspect that before the common user agreements of WW1 vintage, GWR wagons – in whatever livery – would have been vanishingly rare visitors to Norfolk...

I would like the colour change to have coincided with the introduction of cast plates – it is as plausible as any other date in the absence of any clincher. I will leave my 4mm models as they are as I don't have the heart to change them all, but in 7mm I get around the problem by moving my time-frame forwards to the mid '90s and painting everything red. Hang on though, shouldn't the Toad be grey? It does surprise me that even after various historians from MacDermot through Slinn, Atkins, and Hyde to Miss Prism (I assume) have crawled through the company's Minute Books etc that no one has found the definitive answer about the change of livery. It must be recorded somewhere, oder?

While I accept your arguments in principle I find it hard to believe that wagons were taken into works simply to have their cast plates removed without a repaint at the same time – ie a full service. In support of this I can cite various wagons in grey with 25" lettering but the number still on a cast plate. We can be reasonably certain by now that the large letters were only applied to grey wagons. On the point of under frame colour, the GWR has since 1904 at least always painted the whole wagon in grey – there is no reason to think this was a radical change from the previous style so red wagons should have red under frames – for all that black looks better. The above is speaking as one who has a shelf-full of pre-1904 wagons resplendent in, er, grey. In my defence it was done a long time ago before the consensus moved towards red. Is there a statute of limitations here? In the absence of a smoking gun, or at least a fully attested Minute, we have to go with the balance of probability in these things while allowing the odd anomaly.

An exPO wagon as it has a P prefix. I would assume ECLP but there's so little of the original paintwork visible...

That used to be considered the upside back in the day of 'fold-coursing'. The sheep would consume the leftovers of the harvest and manure the land as they went. That's in addition to the usual sheeply things like providing wool and mutton...

... and very heavily overgrown last time I saw it! Is this leaving track in situ a way of avoiding having to officially close a line with all the legal stuff that would entail? Just a thought.

Inherited from the Cornwall Mineral Railway. From memory they were built by the Swansea Wagon Co in about 1875.

Anyone remember that weird Tony Newley film about Heironymous Merkin and his lady, Mercy Humpe? Or am I the only one to have seen it? Richard

One of the advantages of living in a holiday hot-spot is that the neighbours rarely stay for more than a week. That can also be one of the disadvantages ... Our garden fences are brick and flints and about 8 feet tall. Still have to consult the deeds to find out who is responsible for maintaining them though. Apart from one (permanent) neighbour who regularly goes over the top, this village is remarkably free of bunting and stuff. The deli has a couple of large union flags outside but that's excusable as she's family. Richard

Sorry to disappoint but the barrels would have been full of clay.

Thanks for the link – a useful article. Not cheap but I can at least set it against my next royalty payment! Richard

I did actually make that point: " Welsh coal had the edge where special grades – anthracite or bituminous steam coal – were required" but I suppose there's no harm in pressing the point home. Richard

It would be very interesting to read your father-in-law's articles. The Swansea area had long been renowned for the smelting of non-ferrous metals so it was obvious that ores would be sent there for processing. That applied also to the natively produced lead ores. Brookfield pointed out that the economics of coastwise shipping often meant it was more economic for a ship to return in ballast rather than wait several days for a return cargo. This certainly applied to the east coast colliers supplying north Norfolk ports. The area was a major exporter of grain etc but rarely was a returning collier used for such trade – contamination of the cargo may also have been a factor. Overseas trade was slightly different as ships that took grain cargoes to eg Rotterdam often returned with cargoes of bricks and pantiles.

What I hadn't appreciated until I read Dr Brookfield's paper https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/621229.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3Afdb754052034ce60203c144ee63993a8&ab_segments=&origin= was the extent of market penetration by pits in the NE of England. Because their production costs were significantly lower than the S Wales pits, and shipping was cheap, they competed all along the south coast and into the mouth of the Bristol Channel. Welsh coal had the edge where special grades – anthracite or bituminous steam coal – were required, but otherwise only monopolised trade in the upper reaches of the Severn Estuary, alongside coal from the Forest of Dean.

Getting back to the original topic, most of the coal from South Wales and the FoD bound for the south west would have travelled by sea, at least in the period in which I'm interested. The Torquay gas works traffic was by no means an anomaly. Coal from inland pits would have gone by rail all the way, obviously. There's a well known photo of Bodmin station in 1925 with a cut of English China Clay coal wagons, plus one each from Renwick Wilton and New Rock. While it's obvious where the New Rock wagon's load came from, the same cannot be said for the other wagons! Renwick Wilton & Co (Dobson was added c1930) were a very large business, with a wagon fleet to match. Back in Somerset, Sully had its own wagons working in the FoD and from Bridgwater, the traffic between Lydney and Bridgwater being by sea in their own ships. I'm surprised they still found the multiple handling of the cargo economic – but I guess rail rates were high and wage costs low... Henry Floyd, a Plymouth based coal 'factor' (at least in his own estimation) was based at North Quay where coal was brought in by sea for onwards distribution by rail. I'm working my way through Devon and Cornwall coal wagons but have only got to 'F' so far! The Aberdare/Rogerstone trains usually worked through to Southampton though I seem to remember there was a note in the marshalling instructions about dropping off traffic at Salisbury. Unfortunately I can't find my notes. There was also provision for changing guards at Trowbridge. Before the advent of the 2800 on these trains, they were hauled by Buffalo tanks and later by the Aberdare (2601) class – that's where the name came from of course.

I remember reading somewhere about the MR adding oxalic acid to its white wagon paint but , of course, I can't remember where I read it. I had the impression that the very mention of it implied the use of oxalic acid was not usual. If anyone has the time and/or inclination to search the Lincoln Wagon & Engine Co records there are housed at the Royal Bank of Scotland archives in Edinburgh. Where else would they be? I was planning a trip BC but may not make it now. Richard

I suspect it went via Bristol as that was a designated hand-over point for MR>GWR traffic and there were regular trains from Bristol over the Salisbury branch. I have also seen a Walsall Wood wagon at Calne which would also presumably have travelled via Bristol. Traffic from the MR>MSWJR would presumably ave been handed over at the High Street yard in Cheltenham and so would not have reached Lansdown Road.

Thank you Stephen!

I think the Alexandra Road development is one that does match your criteria. As for the Faraday Memorial thingy, marooned on a roundabout at the Elephant & Castle, I confess familiarity breeds ...