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As a mancunian, chasing money, I left first chance I could. There was only tears and the dole when I grew up. The IRA attack was ultimately a positive thing that happened in Manchester, so much redevelopment money poured in. Before that it wasnt far from becoming outside control of law. initially it was for nought as the jobs werent there. Covid is the second best thing that happened. Salaries have hugely jumped. Thousands of northerners in the professional services sector realised how cheap it is to work from home, whilst on a 2/3rds London salary… so they left London for the north, and halved their cost of living, and ditched the travelcard. Now they move to places like Blackpool, the lakes… where its even cheaper, still take home that salary, enjoy the view and have much less stress, in return for a couple of days a week commuting… Then a holiday in the caribbean isnt so hard to reach. I have to be honest, a retreat in the fells is on my list too… having a bad zoom meeting whilst looking at a green hillside is very restful… five minutes drive to be in a fantastic view… or 45 minutes driving down Deansgate which would you prefer ?

100% agree with that. https://www.rowland.co.uk/find-your-home/riverside-place/ they know something you don’t obviously. Over 200 properties, c£300k+ each. Thats an ex-industrial site too, right next to the A6 and WCML, M6 just around the corner. its pretty much next door to 10A. i’d imagine they walk around for a cuppa and a chat once that site is finished. 90 mins from Manchester by train, work from home in the lakes 2-3 days a week, plus weekend.. I could do that.

The country is littered with crumbling castles and once stately homes. Then theres all kinds of semi and full derelict structures, from wells to walls. Listed status just puts it on a list. Carnforth shed is on the heritage at risk register.. https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/heritage-at-risk/search-register/list-entry/282450 Battersea power station was the same for decades too.. look at it now, thousands of flats, retail mall and social centre. is it a power station, no, but I doubt few would argue it doesnt look good and been repurposed very well. Theres been many such projects, indeed the derelict grimy, burnt out, drug gang fueled, industrial streets of Manchester city centre have been almost entirely repurposed.. I dont even recognise the city I grew up in… Many of the buildings are the same, but the restoration and re-commercialisation of the city is most impressive. Manchester is a shiny example of making an Irvine Welsh Trainspotting toilet into a Palace fit for Mancunians. Redevelopment of industrial sites only happens for 2 reasons… retail or residential, or both. But its always for profit that makes these things happen.

It would seem so, last week when passing Southall, aside of 1, which is burnt out, the rest look quite sorry, but the led lights relating to cdl were in place and coaches look sorry, but whole. the advert is here… https://www.tractionads.co.uk/html/vehicles.htm right hand side half way down the page. obviously wcrc dont need them, even for spare parts. The other thing with that ad, is the number of mk1/2’s available, at least 6 TSOs, and more brakes (seems its not just model railways with too many brakes), two catering, even a cinema coach, ontop of wcrcs 14 vehicles. It wasnt long ago another party was renown for cheque book waving at these type of coaches, but seem to have either got enough or changed their mind. Either way reading the ads, theres enough there to build a rake, indeed theres around 30 coaches available to buy, but not many First….

Which coaling / ash towers were the Hornby and Bachmann models scaled off ? They may have already been scanned ?

I don’t see it surviving at all myself. I keep thinking one morning we will wake to the news of a towers collapse. look at the shed in google maps, the south corner has no roof. it had nets hanging from the roof when I last went inside in 1990 before it closed as chunks of roof were falling off back them The MR signalbox is rotten too. Anything museum related that has no wcrc related function has been largely neglected, inc the rolling stock. Tbh ive more sympathy for what was Steamtown, than I have for WCRC. I fondly recall Steamport and Dinting too. I admire what WCRC has done for mainline steam, affordable by the common man, however I do see, from a commercial perspective, that the end of the ride could be quite near, and think that the ORR battle has been self-selected as the hill to die on. What would convince me otherwise would be the plan B, and cdl coaches emerging, a second set in the WHL, or more AB locos .. but what were seeing is dredged up mk2defs on what looks like a swansong… given the WHL contract ends this year, they may already know the inevitable a year before we do. Carnforth only exists because WCRC does. Once WCRC goes, 10A has to be to the highest bidder for the land as thats the greatest potential. Northern Belle is a separate product, could move location elsewhere, maybe take the lakelander pullmans, perhaps even the Ex-Sloa pullmans too with it easily enough and become a slimmed down wcrc reincarnate. I cant see QoS ever being cdl fitted, so heritage use, and then dumping the rest. I dont see LSL taking the site on, from a Railtour perspective its a pretty unideal location, not close to the S&C, and right in the middle of the Crewe - Carlisle railtour stretch. Loco changes only happen there because it is there. In 1968 Lostock Hall would have been a better proposition than Carnforth for both Steamtown, and WCRC, but the 1968 dream was Lakeside railtours, not S&C or WCML running. But Steamtown aint ever coming back.

I have the book, it was published 4 decades ago. I dont believe the 30 LMS liveries (inc works grey) that you refer to, have all been carried on preserved black 5’s between 10/1967 (45000 &45428) and 2024 (for all of em).

Crewe works has a substantial housing estate on it. lets not pretend its impossible. Developers smell £££ and make £££ by taking on these jobs. Crewe is much less glamourous than the lakes. Canary Wharf is built on poisonous toxins from hundreds of years of dubious dealings too. No one ever worried about that. I doubt theres rare newts and bats in Carnforth either.

Theres over 100-200 vehicles… that many vehicles all at once would flood the market. The locos would suck some cash from the sector too. Most will end up in the bin. Lets see what happens to these dozen coaches currently up for sale ? 6151 - MK2F - TSO 6134 - MK2F - TSO 1252 - MK2F - FO 5925 - MK2F - TSO 6154 - MK2F - TSO 1253 - MK2F - FO 6073 - MK2F - TSO 6029 - MK2F - TSO 5815 - MK2E - TSO 5888 - MK2E - TSO 5958 - MK2F - TSO 6045 - MK2F - TSO 6009 - MK2F - TSO 5978 - MK2F - TSO All cdl fitted, in need of restoration, one is burnt out. But its clear wcrc sees no future in mk2def by binning the reserve fleet, and doubt anyone else will either. Dont forget capital gains, those coaches only cost £2k back in the 1990’s, there might be a horrendous liability there, which is tax to pay, not losses offset against tax. LSL would be looking to feast, and lets not pretend LSL isnt hunting wcrc. The antics in FW show it is seeking to hurt WCRC. That isnt compassionate preservation its cold business. Wcrc may not want that. its not as if preserved railways have loads of spare space too. I’d imagine a fair number would end up on campsites and glamping… indeed bottom end of Carnforth might even make a glamping site. What makes you think people wouldnt want to live next to the wcml ?… thousands of people up and down it already do,including in Carnforth, some even have scrap coaches for a view. Commuting convienience often outweighs the distractors. Just as many maybes against as for, making the retort just as facetious. The truth might lie in the middle, making it no less uncomfortable… The steamies will have a future, so will Queen of Scots set, maybe the Lakelands Pullman set, but the rest… what else can you do with a crumbling listed steam shed and structures, on an industrial site in a prime real estate location populated with an extensive collection of rotting vehicles without a substantial revenue stream ? Truth is, if it wasnt for WCRC, Carnforth MPD would have been demolished for housing decades ago, just like the housing estate that sprung up next to it… and just up the Barrow line. Look at Lostock Hall, Bolton, Southport flat ex-Railway land is easy to redevelop. It was game over in 1990, a sad depressing shed with few attractions at the time, why, because the 1968 vintage had gone stale and preserved lines across the country had taken its place, hence why Dinting and Southport ultimately folded too.. the will wasnt there and better options presented themselves. Tyseley is no different, it realised survival is to be a maintenance base and tour operator, not a railway museum. Indeed the mistake was made back in 1968, Lostock Hall would have been a much better location for a railway museum, in its in a city catchment area, and ideal as a mainline changeover location.. As soon as the lakeside branch was lost they should have moved on.

I heard this idea mentioned several times but its not been actioned, so far all the 31x/45x York units went to scrap with their windows fitted. The SWR 455’s / class 150’sare all thats left BUT… most the mark3’s have been scrapped.. that boat sailed. Theres enough preserved but aside of ERS and LSL its a scattergun of coaches around the country. MidNorfolk, Weardale has a bunch, I dont see a coordinated effort there to do this. On the mk2’s weve seen I think 3 coaches with a hopper fitted, but its a half-ass job.. 2 windows from 7 or 8… may as well use a class 156 as hauled stock, as they are all hopper windows.* * for pedants, i know you cant cos the coupling yada yada.

Hornby made an LMS red Black 5… https://www.hattons.co.uk/66174/hornby_r842_class_5_4_6_0_4657_in_lms_maroon/stockdetail looks nice in red, and not without precedent, back in the 1920’s LMS wanted everything red, but then economics arrived. Been a big fan of 46441,45699, 47357 and 48624 in red, ive done a Patriot as the same… tempted to do an original scot like that too.

companies house showed a nearly 25 acre mortgage in the 1990’s by Carnforth station by Steamtown ltd. Pretty good assumption that land size of 25 football fields would be the shed and surrounding land. so they must do. The shed and turntable are listed https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1342134?section=official-list-entry But only the original parts, not the extensions. But just like Swindon it doesnt prevent redevelopment, convert the shed into say flats for instance. Swindon still has its turntable too, as a display object, could be a flowerbed or water feature and form part of the estate entry road. Scrapping one of the stanier locos like 45699, 44932 or 48151 and randomly putting parts as art around the site to keep the historic nod back adds value to the land and property. The coaling towers are also listed, I’d imagine this too could become a couple of quirky flats and a rooftop bar. whilst its fantasy redvelopment, theres more potential than whats currently there and lets face it what we are looking at is the end of the road sooner rather than later, even if wcrc modded up and complied, the game will come to an inevitable end. Steamtown closed down 34 years ago, the site has just been a home for a business since. If this business is at risk long term then you have to wonder why fight. Turning it back to a museum has no real potential, the hobby moved on. Its location is poor for starting railtours except up the wcml, and if that access goes the cumbrian coast is a poor substitute, bnfl trips are long gone. If wcrc’s future is Northern Belle, they could find a home base elsewhere for it and a handful of diesels, rent a road at Newton Heath or such like, or move to Bury with the steam locos. The site is nearly a mile long in total, looking at the surrounds that could be good for 200 properties, close to the coast, lakes, next to both a station, motorway and commutable to Lancaster, Preston and Manchester.

That boat has sailed, most mk3’s are either preserved now or scrapped. HST mk3’s arent hauled stock potential really, and are going overseas anyway. Mk3’s arent exactly popular with enthusiasts anyway, mk2def arent either. And for generator cars, ERS already have the mk5 (EPS) ones, only 3 mk3 Brakes exist (17173-5 and are in use on the PZ sleeper), and the mk2 brake supply is a finite quantity having been paid off 2 decades ago. Thing is is the only passengers wanting to travel in “coffins” as they are known, are the “dining elite” set.. you dont need many rakes.. just a few dining sets… which brings us to the other problem.. Kitchens… not many of them that arent mk1’s. I dont see anyone being successful longterm with mk2def/mk3/4/5 stock for enthusiast tours as enthusiast interest riding them is slim.. they cannot hear the loco, they cannot see the loco and they cannot smell it… so why bother to go on it, it offers not much beyond a Pendolino. so basically eliminate this market. At that point you dont need many diesels, or steam locos either… Think Tyseley.. 1 rake, 1 diesel and 3 steam locos (rotated over 10 years to give 2 at a time), operated that way for 2 decades now… replicate that once in the SE, SW, Crewe, Scotland thats country covered and more than needed… The UK would be similar to models in other countries then, like Rovos rail in South Africa, or scenic lines in the US / Australia, a could of set routes like Paignton, Surrey Hills, Scarborough, Stratford, Holyhead, plus the Royal Scotsman and dont bother with other itiniers just feed off profitable dining elites/ tourists from cities like Bristol, Birmingham, York, London and Manchester. In that sense the 5 already exist.. LSL, TYS, Northern Belle, VSOE, Royal Scotsman, with room for 1 more luxury set. Then theres the occasional odd balls, like 4tc, 142 , Scr Push Pull set and Riveria trains mk2’s for enthusiasts maybe once a month or in winter when demand for luxury trips is quiet. in short I dont see why wcrc would bother without mk1’s, it could be completely shutdown and everything scrapped, site redeveloped for housing and maybe worth >£100mn… I dont really know why they are bothering to put up this fight as they do, for £2mn a year, when the whole hobby, industry and regulator is against them and not much chance of winning. Then look see the current business model is going to fail on costs anyway. It would be easier to Demolish it all, scrap the lot, write off the tax loss and offset it against site redevelopment. Take the really big money and give everyone the finger from a brand new yacht on a caribbean island sharing a Jubilees name.

44806 carried BR Green also… flickr url / not mine. Black 5’s pretending to be jubilees. The OP was asking about LMS liveries though.

The OP is asking about LMS livery, In preservation ive only seen the above, 3, and 4767 in wartime black, so please share the other 26, 45212’s wallpaper livery doesnt count. most of them are BR lined black, 45337 ran plain BR black for a while. I rather like the idea of Caledonian livery, as suggested on another thread.

Bachmann shells are changeable with each other, but not interchangeable with Dapols, they are assembled very differently.

If it helps, aiui these are the ones that have been LMS livery in preservation (quite a lot actually).. 4767 - 1970’s 5000 - current, and at least 45 years. 5025 - current, >55 years. 5212 - smokebox only, carried 45212 on side, and kwvr logo on tender, early 1970’s. 5231 - 1970’s/1980’s 5305 - 1970’s-1990’s 5337 - M5337 in 1948 livery (occasionally in 90’s) 5407 - FR Red in the 1970’s, then LMS from 1980’s to 1997 5428 - current, and also 1970’s/1980’s subject to other info… Whilst its easy to think LMS lined black is all the same, theres been 3 distinct versions… 5305/5407/5428 with a block style GillSans font 5025 serif style with small LMS lettering 5000/5231 with a serif style lms font with wider large space LMS lettering (apologies I dont know exact font names).

How is it different to your local model shop taking payment for a preorder when it arrives ? I have been saying a while that I think some maybe over extended on pre-orders, and if the ship docks with a container for each manufacturer theres going to be some squeaky bum moments up and down this island. To that end, when I rooted the weeds from my garden in jan, I weeded the same from my preorders, to a level that if everything landed at once, I could afford. The rest i’ll take on merit, or top up my preorders as the list is delivered. Accurascale has by far the best payment terms, and if lump sum invoices are a concern they offer other options. But I will say its unfair to all retailers to wait until the ship docks, then go silent on them.

Not that i’m aware of. I think its always been BR in preservation. The engine went to Butterley for overhaul in the early 1980’s, emerged mid 1980’s in lined black with British Railways on the tender. Ran until the 90’s, I dont see anything after 1992. afaik that was it, until Carnforth bought it and it moved in November 2008, and was returned to steam in June 2010 in plain unnumbered black on test, then 1960’s there after.

I hate to say the modelling word, but options are limited at this point. Even Bachmann spares doesnt have any non-cdl tso bodies left. of the two evils, removing cdl is better then kluging an FO interior, when doing a respray, but its not the worst fakery. TSOs are cheap (£40 on Rails), but climbs to £70 with lights, but FOs with lights are (£50) cheaper. I wouldnt go the cheap BSO route, whilst you could do the chassis mods, a cdl one wouldnt have cdl at both ends on the lighting board, but a non cdl one wouldnt matter, and they are cheap as chips with lights, but… no bodies. Ive bought some cheap s/h drs/scotrail tsos yesterday £35 from Rails, with the May discount, as I had a bunch of IC tso bodies for £20 a while ago. I figured that was my best and last chance to make those bodies into something. I will dump the other bodies. For lighting i’ve bought a 12v led lighting strip and some rectifiers, I reckon it will be c£3 a coach, using wine bottle twine for pickups. I will share my outputs here, I will probably do a 6xxx downgrade too.

Only those with a product code ending DC however you can buy the lighting from Bachmann spares. There are a numver of different boards available.. FO/TSO with and without cdl, and BSO (also with/without), and DBSO which is 3 versions. There is a board for the buffet but dont know why its unique, as its effectively an FO with cdl. The buffet is also a good starting point for gatex stock (adding a window is easier than removing), and swap the seating for FO/TSO versions.., then get funky with the ends using Dapol 73 pipes.

you could always remove the cdl, fit it to your wcrc mk1’s to future proof them. mimicking reality,eventually. but this is exactly what I had in mind…

Cant you just buy a 2nd class interior, paint out the yellow stripe / 1st markings ? Given the oodles of Scotrail /DRS TSOs going cheap i’m surprised no resprays have emerged.

Seasonally in parts of the country they seem to be coming back in a natural way quite regularly.

Thing is its really only the blue grey tso people want. Plenty of Virgin, DRS, Scotrail and IC ones about, inc all types. Doing a run of solo blue grey tsos seems a bit of a waste of a production slot, plenty of better rev potential items they could do instead and let these soak up imo. Personally i’d like to see the preserved Riveria blue greys, so i’m in the same boat, but the others are bargains galore.