coline33

Thanks, Dave, now I know upon whose layout I photoed 1038! Likewise with the photo of Feltham 2131 which I constructed from the first production from the then new moulds for BEC No.14 for which I wrote the instruction sheet. 2131 is still active and in my reserve fleet. Whereas my OOC Felthams have both doors closed, 2131 does has both doors open! Also a view of another Adrian built car W/1 349 on service 42 at "West Croydon" on a Sunday. How do I know it was a Sunday? When WC was exhibited on a Friday or Saturday, a No.130B bus would be turning from North End into Tamworth Road (this is a bus service now covered by tram) and did not have a Sunday service. 349 was the subject of the box cover to I think BEC/ABS No.6. Unfortunately its trolley mast had come completely and could not be re-affixed during the exhibition. See the driver and passengers in that No.133 bus behind, also the passengers awaiting to travel to Sutton in John Clarke's Type J car! By the way, ABS kits are available through the website of KW Trams. Colin

Following on from above, I still have two views of models made in the 1960s from the first BEC E/1 kit. 2055 was my first kit-built London car (previous ones had been scratch-built in balsa wood) and the parts have not been altered in any way. The layout is my original Purley tram terminus board. 1038 was built by Adrian and altered to be a Rehab version (E/1r) to show Frank Vescoe how easy it was to file white metal to the correct shape! The buildings are Builtezzi. You can just see the top of the Triang motor. Enjoy, Colin.

Ray, I attach a couple of others views to help. Yes, it is all plasticard using 40 thou for both top pieces and 60 thou for the ends. You will see that I 'laminated' the main frame top to give a total of 80 thou for added strength. The top piece being 60 thou longer at each end to the lower piece to give the end pieces a stronger 'seating'. All cut outs were made before assembly. Remember that when doing the cut outs for the body mounted plough carrier you have to make it longer as the carrier is mounted off-centre for all 'types' of LPTB ex-municipal Es and E/1s with the exception of 2054-2061. Yes, I use the very well tested and tried press-stud connection which has worked perfectly at exhibitions when a motor problem has occurred. In both top pieces a hole is made to accommodate each stud part and then capped with the rectangular piece seen with the small hole for the stud top with its small hole to let air in. Now in adding the feet to the end pieces you must ensure the best possible gluing to attempt to get the plastics to 'melt' into each other and leave to cure - usually overnight for me. The length of the foot is dictated by the space under the saloon bulkheads before the life-tray assembly. All my 'feet' are rectangular but if you feel you need wider 'feet' that part will have to be shaped to fit between the tray's stays. This applies to both BEC-Kits No.12 and the Tower E/1s remembering that the mech for an E class car will be shorter in length as the saloon is shorter than for an E/1 and you may as I have found that a narrower plough carrier has to be fashioned!!! You can tell a car from the last third BEC E/1 kit (No.12) from the second BEC E/1 kit ones by the former having separate and detailed vestibuled platform pieces. Those from the first BEC E/1 kit are too wide, had end pivoted bogies and in fact were ex-Walthamstow 2054-2061!!! Coming to the Tower E/1 kits remember they are based on 2054-2061 and the transfer sheet gives you the number 2054 which is perfect as this car retained both ends unaltered after WW2. So the enclosed kit version is perfect for 2054 but to produce any other type of E/1 I would recommend using the open fronted kit and scratch-building the LPTB standard wooden windscreens to suit a high or low dash as per photos of the selected car. After WW2 you will find that some had high dashes at one end and low at the other - so beware and use all round photos. Fortunately with the E/1 you can work out which side is which by the off-centre plough carrier which in turn dictates which bogie truck-side is complete and which has to have the inner end cut off straight (where the plough carrier used to be bolted on to the truck-side). In the photos of E 420, both decks are from the Tower open fronted kit. The lower deck has had the corner pillars narrowed. The upper deck has had major surgery! It is not an original E or E/1 one. It has been turned into a replacement Alpax top deck as built for the E/3 and HR/2 classes and LPTB finally put that body on the frame of E/1 1597 and reclassified it as an E/1. 1597's lower deck was the oldest bit of a London tram in service after WW2!!! That now brings me on to the replacement bodies for the LCC's F and G class subway single deckers. Brand new double deck bodies were made and used the electrical and running gear from the single decks. In 1929, they emerged as third series E/1s completely different on both decks to the first and second series E/1s. So avoid cars 552-601 unless you love to rebuild kits completely!!! The same applies to the sole HR/1 1852. If I produced templates, would it help? Colin. I

Want to save money? Ideal for building new or retrucking second-hand BEC-Kits (white metal) and Tower E/1 kits (plastic). The 'plug-in' means one mech can carry different bodies irrespective of weight. I attach a view of what I do. Those two in the foreground are for E/1s, one still to have grey trucksides for LPTB and the other black ones for LTE. The side cut-outs are to accommodate the body mounted plough carriers. The lower deck above is an E class one and is plugged-in on a slightly shortened version to suit that class - all only ever had grey trucks in LPTB days. If more weight is required for traction purposes then add the top halves of passengers on top of the mech. If so, then do not forget passengers for the top deck! Hope this is inspirational for you to build more bodies, Colin.

Thanks, Dave. Easier to build EMUs!!! I have not seen a 2-WIM from you yet let alone a 2-SL!!! My 2-WIM is still in pieces in a large envelope awaiting further attention. Yes, I do have Ken's book and his correspondence with me. He had wanted to add the additional material I had discovered after the second edition of "Tramways of Croydon" was published and then there was no prospect of a third edition ever being produced - Robert Harley did cover some in his later publication. Ken had TSL&C published by Lewisham Library as he lived at Lee. Alas it did not sell as quickly as hoped and thus Lewisham bowed out. It has a wonderful collection of memories by tramway men and passengers. When Mr. Thomas read the draft of "London Transport at War" in 1946 he was livid and wrote a foolscap memo to LPT Board wanting it changed or not published as it did not cover anywhere near the some depth of the T&T effort compared with the bus and underground departments. Ken's book mentions some of the heroic acts including taking passengers at high speed passed their stop just before a V1 landed there. Terry Cooper's book on Stan Collins also illustrates Thomas's rage over T&T being so deliberately ignored. Theodore Eastway Thomas is someone who absolutely deserved his knighthood at the end of WW2. Roy introduced Adrian to this thread so I attach views of his 1960's work when he showed Frank Vescoe how to make "Experimental Car No.2" from his BEC-Kits No.14. Whenever I get that finished it will be 2167 which finished its working life when a door pillar cracked beyond economic repair in 1949 and was stored at Brixton Hill prior to its move to Purley where by the end of that year it was scrapped. By the way the body stands on another piece of experimental track using Street Level paving with the buildings behind being more appropriate for RNR. Enjoy, Colin.

Roy, I confirm my interest in the snowbroom. What were the other four wheelers, please? Ray, the original BEC bogie cars did have Triang motors, some were the TT gauge ones. Adrian and I were brought together by Frank Vescoe about 1960-1 following the introduction of his BEC Leeds Horsfield kit and then his BEC E/1 (ex-Walthamstow) kit. Adrian produced the four wheelers under the BEC/ABS range and Frank the bogie cars as BEC-Kits. Both GTriang OO and TT motors were used to replace the original K's motors. I did the product research and also constructed the motors from K's parts but as the failure rate in production (not use) was so great Frank switched to Triang. All my BEC and ABS cars from the 1960/70 period have had their motors updated even to the extent of using Halling mechs. which are probably the best and the most expensive! Adrian's kits are still available under ABS Kits. Does anyone remember the BEC Models shop at 10 Tooting Bec Road? Happy days when I could take the 64 bus through from Addington to Tooting Broadway and walk to Tooting Bec on a Sunday afternoon to deliver the next batch of motors for the following week's dispatch of tram kits. I too used to operate Adrian's little demonstration line when I had to relieve him for breaks at exhibitions. We are still together in touch but not as active on the exhibition rounds now. He now has a large O-gauge layout. Colin.

Stewart, an experience definitely to avoid! I had noted the bus services that have operated on the A1101 so I saw your Bristol/ECW coming to the village's and others' rescue as we have more frequent adverse weather conditions to come! With the next batch of J70s on their way, in goes my order for a third. From photos 68223 seems to have less of the etch to add compared with 68222 and 68225. 68222 has had its skirts cut back to reveal the whole steps and just awaits the finishing of the white framed windows (in open position) plus the 'seat bolts' and works plates while 68225 just needs the 'seat bolts' and open windows. 68223 will be in 'winter' condition with all windows closed but no sheets covering the doors!!! Colin.

Finally, Stewart, you fired me into action. I researched the Welney extension again this PM and I can justify my Boyces Bridge track plan as Three Holes and that for Outwell Basin becomes Lakes End. Furthermore you can justify the use of the railbus between Wisbech and Welney as I see the A1101 easily floods! No doubt climate change will increase the number of such incidents so make sure your rails are above the waterline!!! All the best, Colin.

Wishing Chris all the best in West Surrey. Pity it was not East Surrey north of the M25 - now virgin territory for model rail shops. Good job Camborne still does mail order.

Stewart, the Welney article was by Ian Futers in RM December 2016 Vol.67 No.794. It included drawings of a standard goods office. Colin.

Stewart that sounds an extremely good start. Do not get carried away and put up overhead wires!!! If the line was to have a passenger service today then I would recommend going to the Chinese and offering them the line to demonstrate their hydrogen powered low-floor articulated tram under test for Foshan. No comments please as this aspect is definitely OT!!! All the best, Colin.

Yes Ray, the tram track might still be there as there are so many incidences of track being left in-situ under cover. Recently I came across the new flats built on the site of Chester's tram depot where the tracks had remained. They still remain beautifully restored in the development's driveway. To lay the Tramlink track in the centre of Croydon, tracks not used since 1927 and 1937 had to be removed first! The WW2 scrap effort had overlooked them!!! In the 1990's the site of Purley depot was redeveloped from a DIY store to flats. The whole of the track fan and depot tracks were cut up. I was able to inspect the sections looking to reuse any point pieces but everything seemed to date back to the start of the 20th century and so only fit for the smelter! Possibly the best preserved conduit track is the lead in from Battersea Bridge Road to the former LCC permanent way yard site at Battersea Wharf (same purpose as Deptford Wharf).

I suspect many have thought of modelling W&U by way of the proposed extension to Welney. I did many decades ago and even went as far as B&B at Wisbech (lovely place) to spend a whole day getting passed the depot sites and on to Welney bridge. At Welney I took many photos of possible terminal sites especially to tranship coal to the Fenland pumping stations. In not having a RTR J70 model I deleted all the views long before Model Rail announced its intent! Now if only I had them as my illustrated table-top shows the incorrect perspective of 'Boyces Bridge' which is best overcome by the Welney extension!!! Stewart is quite right in divorcing both first and second generation passenger tramways from the equation. Who wants to string blue lamps along so many miles of rural single track!!! Even the multi-purpose national Belgian Vicinal at its peak had very expensive ways to protect its passengers!!! As Chris says even reading the many books on W&U there does not appear to have been the usual railway practice of staff/token operation mentioned. Each day the line's operation seem to be determined at Wisbech East according to the timetable, vans/wagons available and traffic on offer. Fortunately there are the timetables published therein from virtually start to finish of the W&U. Prior to 1928, the safety of the passenger service was paramount and as Chris points out the depots were in telephone contact with Wisbech and each other. Passing of passenger and freight trains then appears to have been the principal purpose at Boyces Bridge as shown in the timetables. Once the passenger service had gone, the safety issue had reduced creating much local freedom within the timetable. The most interesting side to the freight only operation is the shunting of vans/wagons at each of the depots to get those away that needed priority to connect with the individual mainline 'express' overnight services to the markets in the UK. Some timetables did show these connections to help the staff. Even on a model the track capacity limits the length of trains so adding to the enjoyment of managing a layout in accordance with these connections and the timetables in those books. Good job tram locos were short!!!

Yes, "LCCT Volume One" is the book for all the south side horse tramways and their very many depots as the LCC found when they took them over. For 'northsiders' it is "LCCT Volume Two"! Thanks, Ray. but I still have a handful of Croydon area cars to finish whenever I get back to them! Kind regards, Colin.

At last a moment to file old images into folders! Found a couple to interest you. First is an early experimental track section for RNR with RTR section of straight glued to a cardboard base then the road and pavement areas built up with cardboard and faced with Kingsway's printed surfaces. The car is M 1698 and the buildings behind are Builtezzi. The second is pertinent for any depot builder estimating its size to be!!! The view is my work bench with the LT Croydon services "first generation" cars scheduled to work "West Croydon" at the 2015 Festival, before overhaul. I know this has appeared on another forum/site but not this thread. Line 1 cars for 4 Penge and 5 Crystal Palace. Line 2 cars for 7 Sutton. Lines 3/4/5 for 16/18 Embankment and Purley. Line 6 for 30 Nr.Willesden Jnc. Line 7 for 42 Thornton Heath. Line 8 display cars 015 sand van, 034 snowbroom and 2076 route proving Feltham (1934). Line 9 the trolley only reserve fleet HB 280, M 1698 and an unnumbered ex-Walthamstow four wheeler. Enjoy, Colin.

Sorry, I missed LTE Class B snowbroom 034 between the crowded toastrack and Type HB 280, in the view. I have other views of this and "West Croydon" but really I consider them OT when looking a the development of a depot based on John Howe's "Brixton Hill" kit. Thanks Ray for the 1894 map. Yes, that depot has the hall-mark of a tram depot. In one of Ted's diagrammatic maps there is an indication of something at that end of Greenwich High Road in horse tram days prior to LCC takeover. However, I cannot easily find any direct reference to it but there were horse depots under different street names in Deptford as opposed to Greenwich. Remember Ted's life and memory went very well back in time when boundaries were different. Certainly, the horse tram entry/exit track layout shown is identical to that the electric stores/sand vans used to the end. It looks as though the LCC went on to take over all the land from the rear to the Creek and after 1900 completely redeveloped the area to receive especially the sand for the driers there. Your statement about the Ravensbourne as the principal tributary is correct and as to ship navigation Deptford Bridge was the limit from the Thames that I had as a separate PLA Thames chart in the days when I was in charge of its Hydrographic office in the 1960s. Alas I cannot recall whether the site on the map was marked LTE nor can I recalled from my next job of maintaining the PLA's records of every ownership of the foreshore and banks from Teddington to Sea Reach No.1 including all the creeks. But if time allows, I might look further into Deptford Wharf's earlier history - wish Ted, Cyril and others in the LTHG were still alive so I could add this to the many questions that have arisen since the LCC, LTT, LUT and MET books were published. I think there is only I, Chris H and Peter D (who bought 1858) left. Certainly on the web you can see LTM's WW2 bomb damage pictures of the site. If any one particularly wants to model the Wharf and its operations, then again please contact me direct. Colin.

Yes, the last photo is of "Wellesley Road" owned and built by Croydon MRC and is still extant with its single Bombardier in original red and white livery to conform with the then bus livery (to me it is actually Vienna red and white because that is where they were built and tested). Thus it is a "second generation" tramway model which is automatic and spent a day in the Palace of Westminster at a demonstration of modern tramway practice by the All-Parliamentary Light Rail Group for the education of peers and MPs. The Club's "first generation" tram layout is the circular "Toop Tramway", also 4mm., which in its original condition had been bequeathed by Mr.Toop to Croydon Tramlink (CT) after he had offered it to me but I declined. CT also found that it was not suitable for advertising a modern tramway! To make space in the Tram Shop for a ticket machine, it was transferred to the conference room in Therapia Lane depot. Again not really wanted, the Croydon MRC accepted it (CT had also used "Wellesley Road" for show purposes). Then John Clarke ("West Croydon's" builder) and I redesigned it with John rebuilding a completely new base and trackwork for the buildings to be reused. It is analogue 2-rail. I attach a rebuilt Market Place view of it with Mark's Bluebird in blue and my cars LPTB 345, Southport toastrack and LPTB 280 front to back. I won't take up space with the views I took before we completely rebuilt it!!!

I loved the photo of the AEC Mercury tower wagon and had thought that I had taken a photo of "West Croydon" on the occasion that the layout was positioned alongside it at an Open day there. I did take photos of both sides and ends of the tower wagon. Instead, I could only find the photo of its model (from Adrian's lovely ABS kit of it) with the overhead gang at work on the corner of Station Road and North End when the span wire came adrift from the pole in setting-up!

"Bare Empty Sheds" is an autobiography of a tram driver that used to work on the south-west services until they were replaced in 1950/51. It is worth reading for the work atmosphere. To properly complete the lead-in to "London Transport Tramways" (LTT) (or as we called it "LCC 3"!!!) you do need both Ted Ockley's LCC volumes and the LUT and MET books by Cyril Smeeton,which I could not see in the library shelf photo. Alas, as I think I have mentioned before, LTT is superb with the detail of the tram services but sparse on the trams themselves outside the chapter on the Rehabs (reprinted from the series Ted and I wrote for "Modern Tramway") and the chapter on works cars (I finally updated this after I first retired which was after LTT was published). If anyone wants more detailed information, for their models, on individual cars/classes/types, including works cars, about their body work differences (CRD were extremely good at keeping parts together at the lowest cost!) and whether for the LT pre-war and post-war periods including their licence numbers (LTT only gives MSC Nos. on scrapping) for completeness, you are welcome to contact me direct. Kind regards, Colin.

Thanks, Red Devil. Yes, it looks superb but you encountered the same problems in running as I did many decades ago. At that time, I investigated doing P4 and having successfully converted and detailed a Hornby Class 29 diesel that ran beautifully on Mike Tribe's P4 layout when he lived near me. I had never been happy with the end look of a Feltham on 16.5mm. track. So I made an unmotored pair of bogies for 18.83mm. and set PC Models rail within a cardboard road surface. Just in pushing the car along it was OK on the straights! I deliberately set the curved section so I could alter it but the groove was not deep enough!!! I came to the conclusion that to perfect the track and motorise the bogies was going to take more time than I had and frustration would set in! Apart from the 'plaster' method with rail soldered on copper clad, I have used Hamo and Rivarossi track finally only to use the former as an overhead test line. So far I have not encountered any undue problem with 'Recreation21' for what I want and it just has a good looking sett finish for London conduit track and gives a perfect end view to my 'four-footers' on the overhead. But then it is the cars themselves in which I am more interested than the track. Ray, the only horse tram depot in Greenwich itself was known as Hoskins Street which is the road alongside the Tramways Generating Station (still existant). When the LCC took over this, Rye Lane and Bowles Road for electricification, all were equipped with over-running trollers with cables that plugged into the then new electric cars which were conduit only using 'long lead' ploughs that could be lifted in and out within the lower saloon. Hoskins Street was absorbed into the power station site, Rye Lane went from works to permanent way with the opening of CRD and Bowles Road from depot to permanent way/road vehicle garage. The Deptford Wharf site appears to have been bought after 1900 by LCC specifically for transferring materials from barge and storing permanent way items. Somewhere I did have a plan of the Wharf so when it surfaces I will send it. Trust this helps. Colin.

Yes, Ray, "2099" (as I know it) is on indefinite loan from the Feltham Fund. I was a member of the Tramways Sub-Committee of the BTC Clapham overseeing the trams in the years prior to its closure and move to Syon Park. I loved driving the car on its blocks and my elder daughter, then 3 and 4, loved opening the front exit door every time I stopped - yes we had the compressor going for the air braking as well. In trying to find a new home for the London items at Clapham, I had powers to operate all non-underground modes inserted in Lea Valley Regional Park Bill should funds be found to build a purpose built operational museum alongside the then new Northumberland Park Victoria Line depot to provide the DC current. I had planned a single tram line from opposite Northumberland Park station to the museum from whence bus and trolleybus services could service within the Park. Just think how this would have helped in 2012!!! In the end no one then could afford a proper museum not even in Crystal Palace goods yard which BR offered. Interestingly, the LTM director before EH asked me to find a way to lay a tramway between the Acton Museum depot and Acton Tram Depot which Livington would have taken over for the West London Tram but he soon dropped the idea when I pointed out the difficulties I had with the Northumberland Park line! Instead he went for the miniature railway within the site! By the way I have the LPTB Feltham driving instructions which shows that 2099 in the thirties was equipped differently to the other production Felthams. I have a suspicion that it was changed when Vic Matterface was LPTB Rolling Stock Engineer (Trams) and by coincidence when he visited Charlton CRD in 1949 then as Leeds's Acting General Manager (Trams), 2099 was in for overhaul and he immediately asked for a loan of it!!! He got it and the rest is history. "CissiE" is a beautiful car and only a "Feltham" by location of its build as it was known as "Experimental Car No.3". "CissiE" is the name given by the Finchley depot staff with the letters CE being for Central Entrance. Built as a 70 seat + 30 standing crowd shifter on MET service 40 when it was the onward extension of the Northern Line from Golders Green. BR Engineering did a marvelous job in restoring the running gear. I spent an evening in 2002 with its dedicated driver back and forth - the quietness of it clearly was that which Vic Matterface and CRD had restored in 2085 about 1946 when 55 Broadway banned any further Felthams from having such a through 'war damage' complete overhaul - as people might oppose continuing tram conversion. The Streatham depot staff named 2085 "The Queen of Telford" which was painted on the cab ceilings and of course this car now resides in the USA. On my visit to Kennebunkport in the 1990s, I estimated return to UK and restoration to be close to a million pounds. It has suffered through dismantling work to restore ceasing just leaving a complete mess - I could not work out whether dismantled pipework came from it or the New York subway cars it was between. Very sad. I attach views of the templates for modelling the entrance tracks to Deptford Wharf in 'Recreation21', the present state of my RNR layout when Feltham 2073 tested the electrics (the depot front is laying on the track) and another of what still exists to whet David S's memories! Enjoy, Colin.

Many thanks, Ray, hope your toe was not the result of alcohol - that would be even more painful!!! LCC/LPTB/LTE Deptford Wharf had a trailing junction in Greenwich High Road off the 36/38/40 services. The Wharf was next to Merryweather's factory on the east side of the Creek. On the other side of that road towards the Broadway was in tram days the Miller Hospital. Official LT history maintains that car 1951 was the last to run in London on 5.7.1952 when in fact it was not the last car from Woolwich to New Cross that night. The actual last car did not arrive at NX until early the following morning - thanks to the crowds in Greenwich and particularly the nurses of the Miller Hospital showing their gratitude to the crew. I must admit that we do not watch BBC4 as our evenings are spent catching up on programmes on other channels that clash! Trust all goes well for Acton. It seems a decade or so since "West Croydon" was exhibited there certainly before English Heritage got involved with LTM and removed from covent Garden the two very trams that most Londoners remember using and replacing them with boats and bikes - I have had nothing to do with LTM since as the Feltham got damaged in the move to Acton with its limited public access. I had asked that once on wheels it go via Crich for a full inspection (funded by enthusiasts) and restored to working condition so that it could be loaned out to advertise LTM around the UK but EH then had deaf ears Glad your toe is on the mend, Colin.

Many thanks, Jason, for the lamp data. Talk about a can-of-worms!!! I have been through all my views of the W&U operation in BR days to find that in most the lamps are in the K position even on trains of empties going into Upwell for the fruit season. Only one had the J position and that was for a Wisbech bound train so wondered whether it was all empty! Then there was one with lamps in both left and right irons!!! So when locos ran light did they carry a red lamp in the rear? This may account for seeing double!!! Also in some shunting scenes at Boyces I noted that the diesel shunting from the front end of its train had no lamps at all! For my operations irrespective of train type I am going K for steam and diesel. In discussing the final condition of 68222, CJL alerted me to the single white framed window at the B rear firebox end. Again going through all the views I can find of it, this was with the two white framed windows at the A chimney end and appears to be the condition on return after its last overhaul whilst on the W&U. However, there was only one window frame in position at the B end, the second missing. At some time before scrapping that open window at the B end received a brown window frame probably taken from an earlier scrapped loco. Does anyone know when this took place, please? Also before I continue further detailing my 68222, has anyone considered cutting through the side skirts to remove the skirting from around the steps at both ends as per prototype? If so could you please advise me how you went about it? Colin.

One of the aspects of conduit depot tracks is the location of the conduit!!! From a centre conduit on entry it would switch to the side of one of the running rails to go on to the traverser. Then the traverser's conduit would be in line with the side conduits of the pit lines. Although the LCC was very wise in switching to the free-running plough carrier system one must remember 600 volt DC is dangerous in a pit situation so the rails had to be covered at the sides as well. If you want any help in this regard do not hesitate to ask and I will sort out views for you. All the best, Colin.

Yes, if the traverser is placed at the entrance end then LCC/LT practice had bays that end to hold at least one car on each road off it, back to the front wall. This allowed cars requiring more than routine maintenance attention, not to block the operational roads. The fitters attended cars for daily brake checking as they stood over the pits - something that Brixton Hill itself did not have! So pits would be an added feature which would be helped in construction as you raise the floor upwards to accommodate a traverser. Looks as though you are going to have to have a false basement!