coline33

Yes, I know very well what it is like to make time available for ones self!!! I had constructed the three initial "RNR" boards and laid the track for all but the point at the Canal Bridge end terminal leading into the depot. It was intended to replace the "West Croydon" layout and be shown at the next T&LRS London Festival of Model Tramways in 2019. However, the demolition of the Arnhem Gallery and other issues arising has lead to the announcement of the cessation of these London and Manchester Festivals. One aspect was the rise of the number of model tram layouts at local shows around the UK. This was an objective in the creation of the Festivals. So objective reached and the best affordable London venue demolished equals no further need. I too am now reviewing the style of tram layout. "West Croydon" took at least two of us to transport, erect, operate,take down and store. RNR was designed to be easier and so ideal for the two day or longer exhibition. With now only local shows more often only one day in smaller surroundings, I am looking at a single board, simple circuit but with overhead. RNR was deliberately conduit to overcome the joins in the overhead at board connections!!! So RNR work is currently 'stationary'! Yes, you have hit the overhead wire problem of Brixton Hill. Being only built for trailer cars no electrical provision was made even to bonding the rails. When the LCC decision to abandon trailer operation in favour of more and faster motor cars, there was no further need to use the petrol electric tugs or horses. The new motor cars delivered came with four-way switches and double trolleys which allowed the use of trolleybus style overhead. In time this had its shortcomings so the tracks were bonded so the overhead could be used by single trollied cars. Hence it became a superb scrapyard of all but the conduit-only cars!!! If you want more data on BH plus photos you are very welcome to contact me on <feltham2099@hotmail.co.uk> as I am an archivist for the 1933 to 1952 period with full knowledge of the cars that operated, were stored and scrapped there. BH did have its own resident snowbroom for shunting cars in place for Cohens men. Pits were at the end of each of the six roads but there was no need for traversers as the track fan was constructed beyond the conduit change pits. Marius Road depot in Balham had an outside change-pit at the entry to all covered storage tracks. Being the first LCC electric depot it was a bit experimental and was replaced by Clapham depot. All the best, Colin.

Tom, just a further thought for you. Many years ago I converted "Desmond" into a PLA loco type used at India & Millwall Docks. The main change being the enclosed cab. I accepted that the wheelbase was too long but since then of course Hornby have introduced the new mechanism for the Peckett W4. So how about some prototype bodies of different industrials to suit this new chassis, please?

My final comment on PLA railways is to thank those who responded to the data provided. From this thread and that for the OR/GVH Janus, there were 24 individuals who kindly acknowledged. If anyone wants more information and photos (or even to set up a PLA Railway Group) please email me direct. Kind regards (and 'keep shunting') Colin.

My final comment on PLA railways is to thank those who responded to the data that Paul Bartlett and I provided. In particular to Black Marlin for proving there were at least two types of PLA brake van and to Honest Tom for his superb rendition of PLA 454. From both this Janus thread and that for the Hornby Peckett, there were 24 individuals who kindly acknowledged. So if anyone wants more information and photos (or even to set up a PLA Railway Group) please email me direct. Kind regards (and 'keep shunting') Colin.

Unlike the Royal and Tilbury dock systems, I have so far found any views of PLA covered vans at India & Millwall. However Peckett 74 would have shunted another type of wagon around this system - the flats numbered in the 3000 series. These were used for sorting imported timber cargoes and comprised two kinds. The low flat ones like 3218 and 3392 illustrated here look medieval and some may have been rebuilt from the Millwall Dock Company's grain wagons. But it is the high ones which are worth constructing from Dapol 9' w/b wagon chassis. The photo of a train of these loaded, was taken in diesel days and brakes appeared to have been on one side only. I think that concluded as much detail I can give to help with the arrival of PLA 74.

My final comment on PLA wagons in the Royal Docks is that from its early years the PLA decided that wagons allocated specifically to the Engineering Department would be painted white with lettering and numbering in black. The only photo I have of such a numbered vehicle is a 3 plank 'dropside' one. However, I have attached a view of an unusual 'merchandise' one for which the number is unknown. So I recommend it as a livery variation for the Dapol A005 unpainted wagon to which a top plank can be added all round to complete. Although I have views of individual PLA covered vans none can be made from the Dapol unpainted RTR range. So I have also attached a general view of a diesel hauled Royals train showing various styles of vans which can be constructed from kits. Alas I do not know the number ranges of them.

Whilst on the subject of Royal and Tilbury Docks, I found a draft article I had written for Chris Ellis to put in "Model Trains" if sufficient interest was shown in my article he published on "The Millwall Circle" in 1982. This item was to introduce Royal and Tilbury as a layout basis. Entitled "Animation in London's Dockland" the draft has the attached view of some of the illustrations. Photos 1, 3, 4 and 5 were taken within the Royals and the those at 2 show PLA staff unloading a boat train from St.Pancras at the then newly built Tilbury Docks station at No.1 Berth. Another challenge to model!

Apologies for a mix-up of views - for 403 please read 471 for which the view is of its final 'curved' state. In "Model Trains" for February/March 1982, I wrote an illustrated article entitled "The Millwall Circle" showing how to produce a table top layout to replicate the circle in the Granary area of Millwall Docks and the rolling stock. Off the circle were shed sidings plus a fiddle siding from BR. The idea was to combine BR stock with PLA transhipment and general dock requirements. I included a lovely view of the line-up of the Millwall shed locos awaiting release under the supervision of Alan Cross, the then I&M Senior Railway Traffic Officer. Enjoy.

Now to the challenge!!! To produce as 'close as possible' a set of appropriate wagons to accompany Hornby's PLA Peckett when released. The red livery is well shown in Honest Tom's photo of his wagon on the Janus thread although he did feel it needed a bit more weathering. The decoration of I&M wagons was uniform unlike those at Royals and Tilbury. The white fleet number was at the left hand end of the bottom plank whilst the white PLA was across the second and third planks from the top. The fleet numbers for the unpainted Dapol RTR models are as follows - Dapol A001 = 282, 372, 491, 565, 793, 834, 906 and 982. Dapol A005 = 286 and C55. Dapol A015 = 385, 391, 403, 471 and 488. The best photos of two of these types are to be found on the HMRS photo collection website for Nos. 834 and C55. Because I have been experiencing broadband problems I will send the views of 286 and 471 in a separate post. Also included will be 403 in its final 'curved' state - the PLA believed in longevity but I have see views of 403 when 'straight'!!! Many I&M wagons continued in a ramshackled state of disrepair to store coal, plant, materials, etc. around this dock group. C55 is numbered in the revised numbering series after the PLA post-war review of its rail operations.

I assume, correctly or otherwise, that the welcomed responses from PhilJW and SRman mean that I&M wagon detail would be wanted so I will revert and I challenge anyone to produce a model from the data using the unpainted Dapol RTR wagons to accompany the PLA Peckett! Watch this space!!!

Following on from the above, on the "Oxford Diecast/Golden Valley - YE Janus 0-6-0DE" thread I gave sample numbers to produce PLA open wagons used in the Royal and Tilbury docks from the 4mm. scale unpainted RTR wagons produced by Dapol. On that thread you can see a superb PLA wagon that Honest Tom created from this data. Now with the PLA Peckett No.74 always being at Millwall Shed, then if someone would like to reply that similar data would be welcome on this thread as to the India & Millwall docks wagon numbers for the Dapol range mentioned, then I will gladly arrange.

Tom, I am not surprised that the PLA did not hire further WD steamers at that time. However, pressure to review the railway operations in the light of changes to road haulage licensing, brought lorry parks and railway dieselisation into the equation. Whereas the diesels were all sold on as with most of the Austerities, I learned too late that the Bluebell had sort to acquire one of the steamers that went to scrap. I returned to PLA at the start of 1960 and very shortly after joined the Perway gang on the Bluebell. Had I known then of the Bluebell's interest then I would have done my best behind the scenes. It was not until the 1970s when trawling through the past Board Minutes that I came across the refusal to sell to them. It is thanks to the NCB that one PLA steamer has survived at Embsay. Interestingly as a result of the ending of PLA rail operations at Tilbury, the lorry parks there became redundant and one of my first tasks there was to find alternative and remunerative uses for them!!!

Tom, that looks great. And is the blue Austerity to which it is coupled, also a PLA loco, please? Kind regards, Colin.

Now for something slightly O/T!!! How about decorating the Dapol unpainted RTR 'merchandise' open wagons into PLA red livery for the PLA Janus? Herewith some sample numbers. Unless stated otherwise, the PLA lettering used the second and third planks down from the top while the numbers were at the left hand end of the lowest plank line above the floor. I have not ventured into the positions of door knockers and strips but the examples shown are not far off! Needless-to-say that a central door knocker strip was usually parallel on the right of the upright of the L. Dapol A001 Royals 278, 303, 321,339, 340, 619, 872, 876, 887, 895, 931 and 942. Tilbury 468 (note A) and 549 (note A). Dapol A005 Royals 216, 243 and 509 (note B). Tilbury 1390. Dapol A015 Royals 454 (note A). Tilbury 722. Notes - A = 'PLA' over second, third and fourth planks down from top. B = 'PLA' over first, second and third planks down from top with the number on the third plank down. I attach views of the different wagon types also covering the differing positions of 'PLA'. These wagons could only be used for internal operations. There were two primary uses. Distribution of coal for steam powered plant, heating, etc. In the diesel era the greatest use of coal was to keep the staff warm!!! Transhipment cargo transfer between sheds when vans were not suitable for the load. Tarpaulins had to be provided where essential - PLA management were very claims conscious! Enjoy.

How about making a PLA building within which to maintain your PLA Janus? With unification in 1909 of the London dock groups by the time the diesels were introduced in 1959, centralisation of loco sheds to one for each of the three rail systems had been reached. Heavy maintenance of the steamers had been done 'down the road' at Harland & Woolf's premises with minor work done in-shed. The diesels' maintenance regime being so different that the PLA constructed purpose built workshops with the loco sheds becoming stabling points. So I attach the views I have of the new workshops. The first is at Royals and was at Custom House but not adjacent to the loco shed. The second is at Tilbury and shows the new workshop to the left adjacent to the loco shed. Finally, I attach a November 1969 aerial view showing how part of the exchange sidings became the present Tilbury Rail Container Terminal. The residue sidings to the right and the lines that radiate beyond handled the last regular PLA rail service for the daily John Cockerill Antwerp service at the Tidal Basin berths requiring 24/7 rail operation. Both Cockerill Line and the PLA rail operation ceased the following year.

As far as I am aware from the data provided originally, that of the many livery differences in the life of the PLA Janus's the one chosen was definitely not 'brand one'. The model's condition was intended to reflect the period when the roundel was introduced. I suspect it was at that time that PLA 206 was possibly used to test a different hue of blue. I attach a view of PLA 203 in later years at the Royals with either a white or yellow buffer beam. So the model does lend itself to some individuality if you want more than one.

No, the model is not in 'brand new' condition. It is based on a later period Very many thanks for this piece of film. The Janus's markings are in the original style before the decision to revert to using the steam loco style roundels. Most interesting is the brake van. Clearly there were two versions, the 'single ended platform' as in the film and the 'double ended platform' as in the photo with the diesel (with the link above). As the view I have with a number only shows a little of it with a platform so no indication as to whether there was a platform at the other end. So we must keep looking!

From the above photos of PLA 200 the different style of end handrails incorporating the headlight used on all the PLA machines stands out. I mentioned the white handrails when new (and ex-works) but as time went on some were painted blue. So it depends on how particular you want to be. Courtesy of the Musgrave family, I have the attached showing Royals' Driver Musgrave (with a Head Shunter) in 1954 with hired green WD 142 behind him and then with him proudly standing on his 'bulled-up' new charge - what a comparison! With the diesels the loco crew just numbered two - Driver and Shunter. Now here is pictured a Head Shunter who most probably was passed for Guard duty on the inter-dock transfer trains within the Royals where steep grades were to be found between the Victoria dock and the Albert and George docks. Enjoy.

Lovely photo. Mine has also arrived. Four years ago I had been told by GVH that when the PLA decorated example was available I would get to see and comment. So at last here is my comment!!! The blue is just as I observed them in the raw and the decoration is correct. The handrails were in fact painted white so the model has to have grubby ones!!! Not to worry they can be painted white! If further PLA 'Janus' locos are required from the 200-209 series, I suggest contacting Narrow Planet to see if they can reproduce replicas with the number required. Or if you want to be different how about painting out the roundel and then lettering in the original style when 200 was delivered to Tilbury as per the attached views of either end.

Oh, the PLA rolling stock is worthy of its own thread!!! In the PLA diesel days of going for meetings at the Royals I never saw a brake van. However, I have just spent a week of digitalising all the remaining of the PLA's own railway views that were worth saving when its Photographic Section was 'privatised' in the 1970s! I have found and 'blown-up' a third view of a brake van in a train which confirmed the fleet number series as being 1001-1006. Paul mentioned the LNER Toad B as being similar. Certainly I agree that the version with the flat roofed ducket could be identical or very close. I only assume they were four wheeled and not six, purely because of the lack of photographic evidence. Parkside produce a kit for this and with Hornby's imminent release one needs to double check that the ducket roofs are flat. As to livery, Paul's website as a colour view of a PLA ex-BR Palvan on the Bluebell. With its white PLA letters the main livery appears to be the PLA red and similar to that on the triple pack of PLA wagons (note my earlier comment on these). So beware using a Toad E because of the ducket shape. I am always available off-line for going off thread!!!

Yes, LMR 106, LMR 108, WD 136 and WD 142 - please all interested follow up my requests to Hornby (Product suggestion) and DJModels to produce at least one! My preferences were for 106 in lined LMR blue (worked at Longmoor, Royals and Marchwood) and 136 in unlined WD green (worked at Bicester, Royals and Bramley).

Gridwatcher, sorry you did not receive an answer to the above as my time had already been diverted to "West Croydon" where my green 2-EPB and John Clarke's green 2-NOL were static performers! I did not see your request until day as I had time to read through all 10 webpages. With the passage of time, have your questions been answered, please? I must admit that the sight of the 'foreigners' appealed to me, especially when there was far less variety of rolling stock through Waddon Marsh in the BR blue days. However, one piece of prototype stock that did pass through the real WM but so far not the model WM is the Hornby BR blue 2-BIL with yellow ends on a charter. But having just looked up the current price for it, I am not surprised!!! Kind regards, Colin.

Further to this post, in checking the three wagon numbers in the Oxford Rail website entry (as 126 at Royals, 387 and 468 at Tilbury) I saw that since providing the original data in 2015, they have released a 6-plank merchandise open which is the more accurate tooling for PLA wagons. I have drawn Golden Valley's attention to this to, alas, find that both the PLA Janus and the wagons have just arrived in UK for distribution. So if anyone wants to be correct then repaint the livery and apply the numbers to the Oxford Rail's OR76MW6000 series wagons. Great shame that I did not return earlier to this subject so losing the opportunity to change to the correct planking. Regards, Colin.

Thanks, Paul, I had intended keeping the subject of PLA wagons and vans to RTR!!! Yes, Cambrian, Ratio, Parkside and other kit makers cover many of the designs of rolling stock that the PLA acquired second-hand. Parkside do the BR Palvan for example that would produce A45 ex-B761349, A52 ex-B772972 and A79 ex-B772970 which certainly would have been handled by the Janus at either Royals or Tilbury. The latter two were of the three that went to the Bluebell but alas they could not find the PLA number of the one that was scrapped. Had Dave Marden's series gone into a third part then I had wanted a chapter on modelling for which the latest kit listing against PLA fleet numbers would have been part. If anyone wants help with PLA railways, then this PLA pensioner will be pleased to assist if contacted offline. Nice to have contact with you again Paul. Kind regards, Colin Withey.

I have returned to this topic after ceasing to continue with my "Beddington Lane" project as providing more trams for John Clarke's "West Croydon" layout took over my time and since then I have reinstated my interest in 009 and the Lynton & Barnstaple. So it is great to return and see the tremendous progress to exhibition standard. It looks great - can you still smell the gas works??? Certainly its grime seems to have been cleared away! When I stopped "Beddington Lane" I had started the conversion of the ABM signal box kit to suit as it was the nearest kit to that box design I could find. Although I have kept all the other parts I had for the platform buildings, I found I had over scaled the signal box so scrapped it. Also at that time I had commenced construction of a 2-WIM. The sides and ends were cut out and a 2-BIL chassis prepared for length reduction. The single track at its intended location is still there in the garage running its length from fiddle yard to terminal end but still to be completed. My two 2-EPBs and a 2-HAL still await the day of opening! One day I will get back into the garage! Mention was made of ticketing. Yes, both at Beddington Lane and Waddon Marsh one mounted the signal box stairs to the open platform - on a wet day the signalman might let you in!!! Otherwise the conductor/guard handled the transaction on-board. As a pre-teen I used to love collecting the tickets from alighting passengers for Mr. Bennett (the then BL signalman who lived in the house alongside 'his box') whilst he, my father and train crew nattered after I had done the token exchange. No one worried about the honking motorists awaiting the level crossing gates to open!!! Very happy days. The change of headcode from 2 to 1 was to spell the end of that very friendly train service. Mind you today's service along that line is the best it has ever been but there is no staff to whom to have a good chat. Maybe silence is golden! Like buses, my past wish-list and supporting data are now coming all at once with the PLA Janus due to be delivered this week and Peckett No.74 next April, so my micro 'Inglenook' shunting layout will have to be dusted down next week with buildings and background to be added to take me back to my 26 years with the PLA. Kind regards, Colin Withey.