coline33

Correction to my reference to PLA brake vans. I do have two images of parts of these vans and one clearly shows it had duckets. Whether all had has still to be proven so any more photographic evidence would be most welcome. Regards, Colin Withey.

That serious comment about 'PLA' referring to the Palestinian railways is one that I can also vouch for - just put PLA into Google!!! Way back around 1909 the newly formed PLA applied to RCH for mainline status. It was black-balled by the mainline companies so all PLA rolling stock was confined to internal dock working not just for transhipment between berths but delivery of coal and other fuels plus engineering aspects. Maintenance of rolling stock was contracted out to Harland & Woolf (H&W) whilst that for provision and maintenance of permanent way was with John Mowlem. The Janus worked both at Royals and Tilbury but their heavy maintenance was undertaken at H&W in the Royals. PLA had an extremely good working relationship with BR and transfers of the Janus on the LT&S were permitted. As reference has been made to Hornby's PLA Peckett No.74 I should add that this loco was based at PLA Millwall Shed for the India & Millwall Docks (I&M) system (the separate East India Dock system was also under I&M management). Maybe now is the time to press for an PLA liveried Austerity from one of the current manufacturers. Care was taken by Golden Valley in giving the Janus a fleet number of one that worked at both Royals and Tilbury so an Austerity should be so chosen as they also worked at both these dock groups. Despite the odd exception, all I&M locos were four wheelers. Then comes other PLA motive power! Alas not all the information available on PLA Railways could be incorporated into Dave Marden's two part series on "London's Dock Railways". A third part to 'closure' is really needed. If anyone is interested in the PLA owned types of vans and wagons that the Janus handled, or by any other PLA motive power for that matter, they are welcome to contact me direct. Regards, Colin Withey.

Beware, Black Marlin, of the PLA wagons! As far as I know the PLA Railway Department did not have 7-plank end-tip wagons in its vast fleet of opens. Those recorded are of the merchandise type and these ranged from 3- to 6-plank. I hope that when the Oxford wagons arrive they bear the numbers which I gave Golden Valley at the initial stage. These numbers were of three 6-plank merchandise opens used in the Royal Docks. What I cannot confirm is whether they survived into the PLA's diesel era as during that time the only wagons and vans in use had numbers prefixed by A B or C in a new series. Brake vans were only employed in one of their Dock Groups and then in the Royals only for the transfer trip between Royal Victoria, Royal Albert and King George docks because of the steep gradients. There were only a handful of brake vans of the same design and without duckets. I have a photo of a Royals transfer trip showing a brake van but it is too distant for much detail. A PLA loco crew (steam or diesel) always comprised a 'shunter' usually riding on the steps with coupling hook at the ready!!! I hope this helps. Kind regards, Colin Withey.

Just a reminder that if you are building a layout based on PLA's Royal Group of Docks then there have been kits for the Hudwell Clarke locos. Oxford are also producing a triple pack of PLA wagons to go with the Janus. I do hope they appear with the PLA fleet numbers I suggested. The problem is that these wagons are 7-plank 'end-tip' a type of which I am not aware of PLA having. PLA opens were of the 'merchandise' type ranging from 3 to 6 plank. Thus the numbers I provided were of 6-plank 'merchandise' opens that operated in Royal Docks. Finally the Royals had an internal transfer service that because of severe gradients required PLA Brake Vans (ducket less), the only PLA ones to have operated within the PLA's various dock systems. Regards, Colin Withey.

Now we are into June, please let us have an illustrated update on the progress since March. What you have started is exactly why I asked John to produce the kit. I had originally intended to model Brixton Hill depot including the overhead and conduit change-pits at the entrance as a stand alone layout at exhibitions just to house the trams available for working on John Clarke's "West Croydon" layout which alas now rarely makes an appearance. Thus my "Brixton Hill" has become "Rotherhithe New". So I would greatly appreciate seeing how your development is going, please? Kind regards, Colin Withey.

Just to keep this topic up front. The first Chinese articulated hydrogen powered tram (for Foshan) is now under test operating on a railway service. I would love to see this car demonstrated on London Tramlink. A single car version would be ideal on a project like the TAW Line one for Barnstaple which could even develop into a tram-train operation (Exeter - Barnstaple - Braunton and possibly Ilfracombe). Even the Warwick University's Coventry project's automatic lightweight battery car could be reviewed as a hydrogen powered vehicle. Regards, Colin Withey.

Good to see a start made by constructing the Kingsway Models' card kit that John Howe and I developed. Are you actually constructing it as Brixton Hill depot in its overhead only form or as I am doing using it as a 'what if' London depot situated in Rotherhithe New Road and being conduit only? My 2-rail track work uses Recreation21 street/depot track sections and ordinary railway track in the off-scene fiddle yard. It has a 'what if' history base resulting in reinstating horse car service 90 as an electric service (Canal Bridge - Surrey Docks station) with a new 1920 depot to replace the cramped Evelyn Street depot and be an overflow to New Cross depot and CRD. Today service 90 has become a heritage line operated by LT conduit 4 and 8 wheel cars and the depot a museum/perway store. All the best, Colin Withey.

Geddi, I am very pleased to read that you are having transfers made up. Unfortunately those from Cambridge Custom Transfers and Modelmasters have never catered for the four wheel stock. So lease let me know if I can purchase the sets you are producing. Wessex Wagons no longer have any Longmoor or Marchwood MR stock available but have asked for interest in re-releasing but with different numbers. I have requested four with ARMY prefixed numbers that existed to compliment the Bachmann release of ARMY 47555 van later this year. I do have a preference for AD/ARMY/MODA and WGB/F/M prefixed numbers! Look forward to reading more about these.

Regarding 'political will', I can recite how a BR Chairman upon appointment got Mrs.Thatcher to write-off £400 million of BR accumulated debt so he could get on with his plans to upgrade the railways not only in infrastructure and management but to the future of rail. From my "People's Railway" concept based on San Francisco, he developed the "Community Railway" using municipal as opposed to national control and funding - hence the first such changes in Manchester and West Yorkshire. With the German railways then ordering their first 20 articulated tramcars for the first tram-train operations (Karlsruhr), he looked favourably on such practice in UK until he found there was not the BR money left and could only offer electrically powered 'Pacers' as an onward development as he was just introducing them in the diesel form. Then I look at the political will with Croydon Tramlink and Midland Metro - Major and Norris wanted both to be approved in 1996 but the Treasury was opposed unless both were severely capped in construction cost. Result was that both suffered badly in quality that £millions have since been sent to get deficiencies sorted out. The National Audit Office intervened in 2004 causing Prescott to delay Manchester's 'big bang', Darling to stop the Leeds, Liverpool and Hampshire schemes and defer the other 22 UK proposals. Then came in 2011 a fresh look by Norman Baker approving tram-trains, placing the order for Class 399 (all 7 tramcars now being commissioned) and getting the light rail industry to sort itself out. Hence the creation of "UK Trams" with its working parties including researching the prospects for hydrogen powered tramcars as part of the quest for 'wireless' tram/light rail. This body is now so well respected that TfL called it in to investigate with RAIB the Sandilands disaster of last month. Had the San Francisco auto-tram control I wanted in 1990 (when my original 'over the tunnel' alignment had to be rerouted via the tunnel) on the planned approach to that tight bend hidden by the banks of a cutting either not been overlooked in later years or on risk assessment cut out because of the Treasury cap, then we may not have had the worst accident on a European tram/light rail system for decades. So the industry must come together to gain the 'political will' but as one can see it has taken a 'political will' to get the' industry will' going. Good ole Norman!!! I strongly recommend reading the article "Developing the Guild Line" (Preston) in the January 2017 issue of "Tramways & Urban Transit" (available from W H Smith) written by someone who really knows the difficulties of getting progress in the UK. With Seasonal greetings.

Sorry, but I missed out the word 'less' in reference to new system construction costs.

There are already two all-hydrogen powered tram systems operating - Aruba and Dubai (second tram system there) both developed by a US company using 'heritage' style cars. The Chinese have produced an experimental articulated car for their second generation systems as more cities in China open tram systems. Building a hydrogen powered tram system from scratch is already estimated to cost at least a third if not more in construction costs. With the projected South Wimbledon - Sutton - Belmont tram system in London, this would be a good starting point for European enterprise in developing such. With the hydrogen processing plant costing about one million quid, it would make sense to have a combined tram/bus depot facility which could also produce the fuel for hydrogen powered buses in the Croydon/Sutton areas. So hydrogen trams are already with us but how many more will come???

Thank you very much for providing so much extra detail to John Milner's books, that can be used in modelling the GVT. Colour in particular is very important in my producing my 009 table-top version called the Gynn Valley Tramway - so modellers' licence that all but one of the locos do not have skirts and the Baldwin is a Prairie!!! Please do not hesitate to add any more snippets you find. All your posts are greatly appreciated.

Have a look, Ravenser, at PLA 74 which operated from Millwall Shed on the India & Millwall Docks system. Just the right loco in dark blue to take those sharp dock curves.

Yes, Simon, John Clarke found when constructing "West Croydon" that Tramlink's masts and catenary could only be effectively made by scatchbuilding - see top photo of post 12 above taken at the West Croydon stop. Even the first generation overhead is cosmetic and the poles would have had to be replaced if I had gone ahead with installing working overhead. I have all the parts for this and for Tramlink I too would have used brass H-section for the masts. Alas I do not now see this change taking place. So look forward to seeing your handy work. Colin.

Thanks again in the interest in the views of "West Croydon", so just a final one to let Simon get on with his catenary. This is how I remember West Croydon as a nipper on a Saturday afternoon with the 16/18 every 3/4 minutes plus the 16x/18x extras and the 42s in between. Alas the replacing buses were to loose most of the former tram passengers, as my family knew so well, and by 1957 it took London Transport to final realise this. Look forward to reading of your progress Simon. Kind regards, Colin.

Thanks for the appreciation of the two views of "West Croydon". I trust the following whets the appetite further! Colin.

Simon, how about a tram like those Tramlink cars John Clarke built for "West Croydon" view of his Stadler is attached. Alphagraphix produces a 4mm. card kit for the Bombardier CR4000 car in the original red livery if you wanted a car for the 2000 - 2006 period. For anyone interested, I also attach a view of the fleet of first generation trams, that I selected from my own London Transport fleet, to go through overhaul before going into service last July on "West Croydon" at the Festival of Model Tramways at Fairfield Halls, Croydon. Numbering rows from left to right, the cars in row 1 were for services 4 and 5. row 2 for service 7, rows 3/4/5 for 16/18, row 6 for 30. row 7 for 42, row 8 works cars and trial Feltham and row 9 a reserve of four-wheelers (which were not needed!). Colin.

Roy, did you ever note the locos working the Merton Abbey line as this was worked as an extension of Norwood - Wimbledon duties from West Yard? I recall the Lines Bros 'Triang' container traffic but not sure if this continued on the same train to Norwood Yard from West Yard, do you, please?.

Sorry, but a correction '32225' should have read '32525' and additions of 32444 and 32543 to the C2X entry.

At Pete's request, I am reactivating this thread to answer some prototype questions about the 1950s and 1960s raised by Malcolm. However, the data I will be giving is relevant to the whole of the West Croydon - Wimbledon line (WC-W) so if possible it would be better if this thread could be so retitled as a continuation and not a new thread. Never-the-less, I will continue on this thread. Malcolm asked about steamers. So herewith some specimen numbers photographed on freights - 30538, 30549 Q 31579, 31584 C (Bachmann released 31579 this year) 31829 N (Bachmann) 31919 W (resin kit just released) 32104 E2 (Hornby) 32411 E6X 32416 E6 32477 E4X 32225/45-49/54 C2X 80085 Standard 4MT(Bachmann) also noted were Fairburn 4MT. All worked freights between Norwood Junction - Waddon Marsh - Beddington Lane sidings but through freights were usually C or C2X hauled. On railtours were photographed 31521 H and 78038 Standard 2. I would be grateful if all others interested in the WC-W would respond with the scales modelled, please?

Yes, Pete, and I went and linked that thread over to this one as I thought it had run its course and did not realise the section under which it was correctly placed!!! So Malcolm, over to Pete's original thread in the 'UK Prototype Questions' section for the prototype data but please continue to email me direct so as not to hijack that thread!!! Kind regards, Colin.

Hi, Malcolm. Talking of hijacking the thread, I am concerned that the extensive data and images I have on the WC-W line for pre-1970's are outside this thread and the section it is within. Not being aware of any other interest in this period, I will contact you direct.

Great to hear from you, Malcolm. Glad you enjoyed Frisco. I must get back sometime as the electric tram system there has almost doubled since I last went and drove a fully loaded Boeing throughtout the Market Street subway. Half my time is spent with family in Kent doing the school run around the remains of Hawkhurst station. After a day on the footplate of 'Bodiam', I joined K&ESR six years ago, so my grandchildren have already had their Santa Special. However, they get more excitement going on the tram to the park than the train to Bodiam! Last week I visited the new Robertsbridge Junction station - tremendous work going on, just one farmer and the Highways Agency to square before connection to K&ESR. Only been to Coulsdon once since I retired from there in 1998. Joined Baistow Eves in George Street when the trams started and finally retired from there in 2006. Glenn had hope I would have joined him on the trams instead. So my commuting life to Croydon began with four years on the first generation and my last six years on the second generation of trams. In fact I have just returned home from what is a 'winter' regular morning run on the tram so adding to the 30m. passenger journeys reached each year. Currently, I am under pressure to complete a 2-WIM to be seen on "West Croydon" at the Wimbledon MRC show, first weekend of November, so coffee break over and off to work! Colin.

Many thanks for the introduction of L Cut Creative to me. When I saw 'LCC' showing up on their site, my heart raced - could they also do London County Council architecture??? I have downloaded their manual and bookmarked the videos. So will delve further in due course.

Malcolm. Are you the Malcolm S of whom I and Glenn knew before his moving to the Forest of Dean area? Are you the one who used to come in a chat to me in the late 1980s at Andrews at Purley on valuations and getting the keys for surveys? I hope so, as I had wondered how you had been fairing since. Kind regards, Colin.