Junctionmad

because of capital constraints. injection moulding produces cheap parts , but has expensive tooling costs to take a large proportion of the market , they will need a comprehensive set of turnouts

what what did he say ? dave

so its not proper bullhead , more like raised flat bottom , is that right Dave

I welcome this announcement, even if I find it strange that no point work was considered at launch. I suspect it's an announcement to head off competition. Personally , I shall continue to support C& L , even for plain flexi, especially now as their wonderful 00 fast track based think sleepered version is available. Dave

as a last resort, buying a SPROG2 so as to programme the cobalts may be a solution

thanks Quentin Dave

Appologies Gordon for this diversion In a typical DCC layout you will use a power supply to generate both DCC track signal and say a DC feed for layout use ( often 12v). The track DCC signal is either (a) unipolar AC, where each track pulses goes from 0V to DCC track voltage , in effect creating a track AC voltage that swings about track voltage /2 or a bipolar feed where the voltage on the tracks swings +- around gnd. The unipolar supply is more popular as the circuitry is simpler The key thing is ​neither rail of a DCC system is at 0V. both rails are " power rails". there there is no layout 0V reference at a DCC track. So you can common DCC derived DC power from DCC track signals,( assuming you always maintain correct polarity) but not include in that common , the layout 0V derived unless that DC supply which generated that was truly floating , which few mains derived DC supplies are. so the answer is , you can get a short or not depending on the exact makeup of the DC supply ( and the DCC supply ) if you wish to discuss further perhaps a PM and I can sketch it , or Ill post it on templot club , rather then clog up this thread , in MERG designs for example, to be safe, the lines are connected via optocouplers to ensure separation of grounds dave

Note that this method may or may not cause a DCC power short, it depends on how the DCC signal is being generated dave

much confusion abounds, ultimately in a DCC layout the track power is referenced to 0V, which is referenced to the layout GND, however each side of the DCC , may be unipolar around half the track supply voltage or bi polar around 0V. since neither track is at 0V, its cannot be commoned with anything that is 0V. you can of course have a single AC transformer that supplies both the DC layout power and DCC track power. ( via different regulators ) The issue sometimes comes , when you derive accessory power by re-rectifying the DCC AC voltage to create a local DC power supply, in that case a new local 0V is created and again can not be commoned with the system 0V a 0V line is only 0V with reference to its associated supply voltage, the actual 0V line could actually be at 100s of volts in reference to some other 0V. 0V and GND are the same, GND and Earth are not the same , earth can and is used to establish a common 0V ( GND) or it may not be ( i.e. fully floating) hopefully thats as clear as mud

I think this would be a very suitable kickstater project , Ive been involved in contributing to an essentially crowd sourced wagon project , and is been implemented via DJM, its surprising what can be raised from a relatively small group of people I wouydl say that merely taking the project to the stage of a good set of scaleable 3D drawings might be enough to get people to " invest" , I know I would dave I wish it the best of luck

I know this was true up till a certain point in history , but is it still true today, or even recently ?? are there are guards to spot anything these days ? dave

The main failing of the Everard Junction signalling is the assumption that a train which has passed the signal exits the block ahead, because it simply uses a timer to restore the signal through the various aspects to green. In reality this is an illusion of signalling, easily defeated by stopping the train in the section ahead if I was to go to all that bother I would place sensors ahead to detect the passage of the train out of the section , in fact because signals are close together on a model railway, you can often use the next train detector as a feedback for the previous signal dave

hi gordon In software engineering, the accepted approach until the last 10 years ,was " top down " design. essentially you built a whole specification before you cut any code. This was found to be a poor way to design systems as the spec constantly needed changing and was constantly revisited and often the actually coding was pushed further and further away and allocated less and less time, leading to massive overruns and software that didn't meet the customers needs. Today , in software design , we have the combination of "agile" and test driven development , I often call it bottom left hand corner design!. Here you only define small pieces and build them as simply as possible. The key is to cut code as quickly as possible and get something running , so that the specifiers can see the real thing as quickly into the development as possible ( I'm simplefying this a bit obviously ) The code is the minimal required to meet the " test" , at no stage do you add features that are not at this point needed, You then constantly return and refactor the design as it builds, replacing code with better implemented solutions , that still meet the same test Today large projects couldn't be completed without agile development methodologies , especially whare large teams are used The key takeaway, is that large complex overarching detailed theoretical planning, is actually a hinderance to project completion you plan a little, build a bit, test, refactor/rework and continue just a useless tuppence worth dave

great description of plastic slippered turnout construction, Im about to start a layout with the same idea, somewhat bigger, around 40 turnouts !!! can I ask what the blue turnout unit connected too the brass welding rod is ? what did you use for the tie bars at the blades of the turnouts regards Dave

Gordon, I'd ban you from templot and tell you to lay track paralysis by analysis and all that The goal is to make the little plastic trains go round and round :D dave

well I suppose we can go round and back discussing various aspects of a hypothetical bluetooth cab control system. We havent really seen anything yet. it should still be pointed out that even an average layout will have to wired up as for DCC to enable track powered bluetooth to work, that means plenty of additional wiring on the issue of pairing , in practice with Bluetooth and the current protocol stacks in smartphones, this means you have a pairing and connect and disconnect time. I dont see how that will be over come as you need to switch from controlling one loco to another and then say switch to 5, 10 or 15 points and signals. Ive done a fair bit of bluetooth development and I dont really see how some of the limitations are going to be over come with the present smartphone bluetooth stacks

It's worth pointing out that today you can use smartphone based throttles on a DCC system via JMRI and interface that to many DCC controllers out there. It works well too. This is an open published ( albeit badly documented ) protocol and anyone can write throttle apps for it. I can see Bluetooth, or maybe wifi, having a niche market in the toy train end of the business, but to suggest Bluetooth could be used to control a large number of simultaneous channels ( devices , ie locos, points , signals , accessories ) without further electronic concentrators is to assign a complexity to Bluetooth that doesn't exist. There are further issues with cab to cab handover , ( stealing and sharing ) and how you integrate things like track occupancy detection, layout status etc ( since you have no centralised control ) Bluetooth is attractive to companies with no established DCC system investment as it offers them a way to offer very entry level cab control without having to compete against existing DCC suppliers. The use of an iPhone as a throttle facilitates this low cost model. It's worth noting that you can buy a SPROG DCC controller very cheaply , ( as cheap as a decent layout supply ) , and hook it to a readily available laptop ( or via free JMRI to an iPhone ) hence building a very cheap system. ( I will accept its not intuitive for outright beginners ) There is much wrong with DCC, but as a layout cab control system it can act as a basic entry level , right up to very large complex layouts, something that Bluetooth( direct throttle to loco systems ) cannot technically handle. Note that there is no patent issue over railcom. Railcom plus is a different issue. The main issue with railcom was Digitraks decision to go with its own proprietary transponding system , rendering railcom as primarily a European system. I have a railcom solution and it does what it says on the tin , but in reality unless you have certain layout automation desires , you don't need bi directional communications ( with the exception of decoder programming ) Bluetooth will be a niche entry level solution and will remain so, in my opinion. This will be especially true if there is no open source or standards applied. At present the loco command interface over Bluetooth is either open or standardised. ( merely making a Bluetooth connection is not the same thing ) There is by the way , some advantages to having a high speed data link to the decider ( by whatever means ) this would allow programming decders , especially sound decoders , to be completed quickly and directly from a PC/ smart device. Hence a DCC deoder with integrated Bluetooth would actually be quite useful. Dave

Thanks John. Will revert after I order a few more bits from Pete and try my hand , I really appreciate you and Dereks advice Dave

Derekl, thanks, yes I have my chairs mixed up what I was talking about was the chairs hold the V and the associated wing rail at the nose. I cant see this being done well in purely functional chairs, what I plan to do is follow the societies digest on C&L components and solder up the wing and V rails to 0.6mm copper clad and then stick these to the appropriate nose timbers and surround them with the most suitable chair ( even the correct p4 chair cut down to 00-SF) ( yes I know 00, but that is for this layout ) dave

What I meant was based on the Scalefour notes on build track with C &L components Given that I can't buy bridge chairs that are correctly setup for 1mm flange ways. My idea was to follow the scalefour advice and prefabricated the frog ( v and wing rails ) as a soldered pieces , held by 0.6mm " stretchers" these are then glued down to the sleeper and semi functional chairs added outside. Are you suggesting holding the V and the wing rails solely in cutdown plastic functional chairs. As for gauge wars , I got banned from that thread , so can't say any more. , that's what I get defending Martins reputation , anyway no discussing moderation Thanks again John

Ron Ron Ron Rather then picking through your reply to me Railcom is there today , it's implementation is scare primarily because the layout integration software to make use of loco supplied information isnt easy to setup. Automation can be readily achieved without any loco comms , as demonstrated by JMRI and R & R train controller software Bluetooth is just a communications methodology , any layout automation will be situated in an attached computer, and that's likely to be an attached high horsepower permanently powered computing device. On the subject of smartphones as throttles , I don't know if you have ever used in anger a iPhone throttle app , I've extensively played with WiThrottle and there are serious drawbacks with smartphones. The first is lack of tactile feedback, forcing you to constantly look at your phone , and secondly , the lifetime of the battery , continuously running an app and comms. Both mean , that I suspect, as I did, any serious layout operator will prefer to a dedicated throttle with tactile controls. Let's deal with costs . In any meaningful layout, the major cost of DCC is tied up in decoders, especially if sound equipped, this is likely to be similar for Bluetooth, Since specialised decoders are still required. Further more , as the layout must be DC fed, you still need power supplies , district cutouts , frog switching , short circuit protection, reversing loop switching and all the other bits that make up a track powered layout. Many parts of this are already built into typical DCC controllers. These would have to be provided separately in a Bluetooth layout, negating much of the cost advantage of a " free" if unsuitable smartphone throttle. Today a fairly high end DCC system , with integrated power supply , automatic short circuit protection , and separate tactile throttle can be had for under 150 quid. I suspect not much will be really saved by going to Bluetooth On the question of technology , Bluetooth is around since 1994 , it's hardly whizz bang . It has serious limitations when you try and control more then a few channels. There issues with interference , and session drop out too. On layout sound, I agree, it has the potential to be far superior to sound integrated into the decoder. But , Bluetooth offers nothing in that regard. The layout is fixed and doesn't benefit from wireless communications. Proper layout sound is very complex , really requires train location feedback to work , it's requires a considerable piece of software complexity to make it all hang together. Bluetooths ability to merely transport sound data is irelevsnt in that solution. DCC is not legacy technology , pulse coded information on wires is all the rage , your car couldn't function without it. DCC is updated regularly , as is witnessed by the new layout bus specifications just released . New DCC devices appear regularly and with increasing sophistication and decoder become more integrated and cost effective To summarise , Bluetooth is rather like Hornbys Zero 1. Attractive to the very entry level " kids toy train set " , one or two locos and an oval of track , as it offers cab control at a low entry level cost. As a serious contender for reasonable size layouts , typically seen, it's a dead end technology. As a wireless technology it's largely been surpassed by wifi , which is now as cheap to implement at silicon level , with far superior technical advantages. Hence DCC over wifi would be a far better future possible solution. It's multi channel restrictions mean it will never be a serious contender. Wireless communications to 00 gauge locos will have little traction , until we have workable battery solutions ( or maybe inductive coupling ) , if we can implement dead rail systems , then wireless control ( of whatever type) then becomes very suitable. Regards Dave

Thanks John Coming from a copper clad and non functional chair background , I'm currently getting to grips with all the special chairs and especially how to fabricate bridge chairs etc. The fabrication of the track , I'm very comfortable with. My current view , in advance of building a complete turnout , in plastic. Is to pre fabricate the common crossing and wing rail and solder it together on 0.5 to 0.6mm brass, this is then stuck to the plastic sleepers and finished with a combination of functional and non functional chairs, I agree with you re bridge chairs , I'd like to represent them , and as you may also have noticed elsewhere. I'm a fan of trackwork. I'll report back Dave

Thanks again John . I've messed around with plastic and functional chair construction , I'll now try in earnest Dave

Thanks John , very useful , I'll order up enough exactoscale plastic bits to do a few turnouts and try my hand Do you find you can solder droppers , tie bars etc , without the whole thing melting I assume you build the common crossing and wing rails as one unit with thin copperclad and then glue this to the plastic sleepers. ? Thanks again Dave

John I was wondering what your view is on using C&L full thickness plastic timbering and fn tonal chairs to build 00-SF turnouts I presume I'll have to cut up chairs because of the lack of 1mm crossing and check chairs. Is this practical. To date I've used copperclad and played with ply and rivet. But I just want to match C & L new full thickness flexi , so considering full plastic timbering Would it be viable to produce irregular diamonds in the same way. ? Thanks Dave