ElectroSoldier

Well, the integration was kind of already done. I mean in that if you discount the loop line that takes trains from the tunnel going towards James Street in a left hand turn out through past Moorefields, Lime Street and Central then into James street and back to its point of divergence then the original tunnel as it was before the changes in the 70s was that the trains would go under the Mersey through James street, through a tunnel now called the Stock Interchange line and into Liverpool Central Low level station, which included a short turn back spur at the end of the station and is still used for that purpose to this day. Its all rather clever in that the original Wirral line that terminated at Liverpool Central Low level was aligned (at different levels) with the line of the CLC. The original design intention was to drop one of the three tracks that was in the CLC tunnel towards their terminus at Central High level down to meet the Merseyrailway in the low level station, thus bringing those service to ground level north of the Mersey and also the other way around. Integrating the two systems was a design feature. Work on the Mersey Railway started in 1881, but it was talked about for years, the CLC route into the heart of the city opened in 1874... Collusion between the two railway companies was, in my mind, a certainty. big projects like this are always talked about between the people involved, it works like that now and it was then. Those companies talked to each other before hand Im sure of it. Dont get me wrong the two tracks were not perfectly aligned with each other, there was a curved tunnel required but they were aligned enough to allow the one to connect with the other with ease, which is exactly what happened to get the network we have today. Its hard to know what to write without repeating myself so Ill try and put it into order. The CLC built a line from Brunswick station (not the one we have now, a much older one that was at the time the terminus of the line) under the city and it ended at Liverpool Central (High level as it eventually was known, but at that time it was just Liverpool Central, because there was no low level at the time) The tunnel they cut to get to Central only required that the track be 2 wide, but they cut a 3 track wide tunnel. It would have been more expensive to do that, the earthwroks there are solid sandstone, the work required is described as being "extensive", none of the tunnels there are lined, they are the bare sandstone... From getting the permission to do it and the line opening was 10 years! it was 4 tunnels and 3 cuttings, one of which contains a station called St James station, and its about an mile and a half long, it ended when the tunnel opened up into what was Central station, and it was a really grand terminus station for the CLC in Liverpool. Im trying to find some pictures of how I remember it back in the day but they all have a copy right on them and I know RMWeb have conditions with that stuff, but if you search google for Liverpool central high level Im sure you will find some pictures of interest. So that was the high level station built. then within a decade work started on a totally seperate railway that started on the Wirral, and ended at James street in Liverpool, the Wirral side is worthy of a write up all of its own as it involves CLC, The MR, GWR and the L&NWR. The line was built under the Mersey in a tunnel that is still used to this day, back then the line went straight under the Mersey and ended in a slight left hand kink which is where the station is of today. In the station today you will only use one of the platforms but they used to both be used, the one you use today was for traffic back to the Wirral, trains came in emptied out, carried on into the turn back and then returned on the other platform. That wasnt enough for the Mersey railway, to finish so far from the city center, they wanted further... so they cut another tunnel, it kinked off to the left further into the city. (come down onto the platform and look right there are two tunnels left and right, the right is the modern loop line, the left is the old line into Central) At the time the line went straight along then did a hard right and entered Central Low Level station... That station is the Liverpool Central station of today. Sure there were some differences, but basically that is the old station as it was before the changes in the 70s, and yes the 70s changes did change the station but basically its the same. And that was how it worked for nearly 100 years. Both companies using the same station at different levels. I remember Central high level, and going down the stairs to the low level station, it wasnt as it is now, the stairs, at least the ones I knew were actually in the station itself down what felt like a subway or through a different set of steps that were accessed through the Lyceum post office. If there were others I never used them. Then came the The Reshaping of British Railways of 1963... Basically it said that Central high level wasnt needed as the trains that went there could be diverted at Allerton along Allerton chord and go into town via Lime street. All trains from the Gateacre line would do that. In the end I remember Central and it was derelict, there were only a few station staff there just to support those Gateacre services. Then we come to what you want to know, how we got the "Merseyrail". For that we have to widen our focus out to another station which was called Exchange station, which without covering that to much was an over ground station where Moorfields station is now basically. And this is where the clever part of the CLC pre planning really comes in, because the tracks of the CLC line were also aligned with those of Exchange stations tracks, it wouldnt take much to dig a tunnel from Central station to come out at Exchange station (which was entered over a viaduct) (so you could have had Exchange low level too without much work). In the 70s a plan was drawn up that would take the tracks from the tunnels that entered Central High level down to the same level as Central low level (deleting Central High level station) and then once it go to Central station carry on North west towards Exchange station underground, they created a new station called Moorfields station, and then the tunnel climbed up onto the viaduct that used to feed trains into Exchange station. (Exchange requires a similar write up as this to explain what happened there) Thats how the three railway networks were linked up using just one new tunnel. And that tunnel was called "the link", because thats exactly what it did. The rest of common knowledge over that line really. the line went 3rd rail from Southport to Garston, then slowly over time they increased the line to Hunts cross (in the mid 80s) which is where it ends today. It never got as far as Gateacre inspite of the plan to extend the line to there. Then you have "the loop", which is just that, a loop of iron that starts in the original Mersey Railway tunnel almost directly under Mann Island on the pier head. if you are travelling into Liverpool the line turns left and starts a right hand turn that goes to Moorfields station, then on "under" lime street station (the platforms of Lime street low level are more under the road and St Georges hall rather than Lime street station itself), then carried on to Liverpool Central Deep level. the track then climbs to the right, kicks left and ends up at James Street station. Which is you have the funny arrangement of services there that mean if you want you can visit the same station twice in different directions on the same service. What more?

I know the line from Hunts cross to Hightown including the tunnel sections. What were you wanting to know

hehe Theres a name for people like you :-) ;-)

Hey guys. Im aware that Allerton (8J or AN) was used as the training base for crews of electric trains way back when the WCML got its wrires but then some time after that it shifted its focus, it gained its wheel turning shed and it had an overly large amount of 08 shunters too. Can anybody tell me more about the place. I worked the area for many years but all it ever really was for me was an access point as there was a good place to leave to van Why did it has so many 08 shunters there? What other motive power if any was located there or seen regularly? How often were the MerseyRail 507/508 sets there for wheel turning? Anything you can tell me would be interesting.

So you would call the item in question a fishplate and leave it at that would you? Or an insulated joint... insulated joint fishplate or an insulated block joint fishplate. Or maybe an Insulated block joint? Its like me saying all dogs are creatures but not all creatures are dogs! Well yeah, but you wouldnt just say "its an creature" would you. Yes of course it is a form of fishplate. My words were to point out the fact its not simply a fishplate. Ex track inspector ;-)

Its not a fish plate its an insulated block joint.

Thats the bridge from Viaduct jn over the Chat moss.

Thanks LMS. On the east end of the grid past Gridiron bridge that went over the circular goods the line from Viaduct junction went over Chat moss and over Picko #1 tunnel (that is Picko #1 tunnel? and is still used to get trains from the Bootle branch to Wapping?) down a gradient and met up with the Chat moss line (so you could go from Wapping to Chat moss without crossing the Up & Down Main) what signal box controlled that, where was it, what was it called? Any info about that would be great as I have none yet. That end of my diagram just ends in the cutting and Ive no idea what it looked like back then.

So was it directly north of where Edge hill CS is now? South of Wavertree boulevard?

Any photos out there of the north side of the Gridiron? I believe that was where Exhibition junction signal box was.

Thats how I remember most of it even today. When I look at Lime street I can still see parcel vans on siding E next to platform 7 being loaded up with little tractors and platforms 1-6 with a clear view of the concourse. It is amazing to see just how much has changed over the years though, especially Edge hill, the viaduct infront of the engine shed for instance.

Forward the video to 2:35:16 to see the start of the Circular goods as accessed from the Liverpool - Weaver Junction line. Unfortunately the video pans the wrong way, but seeing it on video makes a nice change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Roj6FOtb-oI

From there going out to Wigan then up to Hartford jn to Stockport then a reverse at Rochdale would be to avoid Manchester. Surprised about the 60s, they have a lower speed limit on that route due to the route availability, or should I say the loco weight at certain places... As to route knowledge of crews who knows, I would doubt they have anything current unless they have already done it, there hasnt been any trip workings along that line in many a long year as far as I know, Some engineering trains yeah but trip workings no.

It would have to be via Wigan Wallgate as they cant path over the tracks west of Kirkby. RTT has the route, why would it go via Bolton? Been a long time since a new trip working has come along.

Where exactly is this sign? The train pulled out of middlewood on route to Disley. Only think I know on that length of the route is a level crossing just before Disley station. It it anywhere near there?

Could be an old mile marker, or a warning about poor rail adhesion? Cant be sure on the second one, its been a long time since I saw one. Without seeing it I couldnt say for sure.

Yeah they are the van Im talking about. At the time I was working there as a HS on the Hunts cross chord there were more brake vans there, there was one still in the colours of LMS or GWR. I cant remember which it was. I also remember the fire that gutted that one... How were they used exactly? I remember the Class 08 and Class 31 being there, but Ive not idea what was the chain of events to get a 507/508 onto the depot. Was it always a move from Hunts Cross? how did the 31 put the brake van behind the 507/508? where did it happen? why did they do it?

Hey guys Im wondering if somebody can help me with some finer details regarding the old brake vans that were stabled at Allerton TMD in the 1990s and maybe in the 1980s too. I remember the brake vans there from when I was working on the first part of the remodeling of the Speke length of the WCML getting ready for the building of LSP station. There were some old brake vans there, one still wearing the wood brown markings and showing some letters from the post grouping companies (I really cant remember what the letters were, it could have been LMS but I cant remember any more) But there was at least 1 and maybe 2 Merseyrail livery brake vans there that were used when they took some Merseyrail stock into the depot for work on the wheels. Im wondering if anybody knows what the exact procedure was for the use of them? For instance what loco was used to haul the 507/508, were did it go to once it left Allerton with the brake van? did the collect them from Hunts cross or were they taken down the Bootle branch from there own depot at Kirkdale? what was the arrangement used, was the van attached to the rear of the 507/508? Any and all info you could give would be great please.

I dont have any direct experience of southern depots but. Buxton had a rather modessided TMD, there was no building for it in its on right, the crews used the facilities on the station, which was opposite over the runnig linse into the station, there was a fueling point, stabling roads and that was about it really, even when it was busy in the 80s there was a lot there but there wasnt much there at the same time. Then on the other hand you have Allerton TMD, which can still be seen on google maps, the facility has changed many times over the years so you could model it how you want and Allerton is a pretty good middle ground, there was a largih train shed for maintenance (was always full of 08s, 47s, 37s, 31s, 33s you name it they were there. There was a washing line but I cant remember there being a fueling point. Allerton was also interesting because there was always a couple of brake vans there (one in Merseyrail yellow with grey stripe livery) one in old LNWR or LMS colours, I cant remember which, I know the letters could just about be seen even into the late 90s that was there. used when they took an EMU off Merseyrail to the depot for maintenance. So many TMDs and so many differences between them you really need to narrow it down, but to answer the OP there did seem to be an order of events when it first went into the depot, they always went in on the same line to stable while waiting for the deopt crew to take over. The same is true for Edge hill C.S these days when they take the Pendolinos in.

When the little shunter left there was nothing left to move the wagons, the steam railway got it and those wagons have been there for at least that long as there is apart from the motive power of the steam railway nothing that can move it. They have been there at least since 1996 in that case... I couldnt be sure though, ive not lived here that long myself.

The aforementioned hopper wagon. No idea what it is nor how long its been there.

Theres a coal hopper and some kind of flat wagon just outside Ryde St Johns station on the island line, its been there all the years Ive lived here on the island and I dont believe the line has seen any kind of motive power capable of moving it since 1967... The hopper is plastered in graffiti, it looks as if it was in BR Construction sector colours being light grey with a yellow band and yellow sides, but being where it is its hard to tell as its impossible to get to the other side of it.

Were all the goods depots the same LMS?

Been looking over that map all day nw, together with the pictures Ive got a good idea where I need to go now... In Speakland road goods, what is it for... I mean what did they used to do in that building? As far as I can tell its just a sidings with a building over the top of it... what was it like when you went inside was it just ballast and track or what and what were the others like?

That first link is absolutely fantastic!!!!!