844fan

Sorry to double post, but I got my calipers out and the model of the locomotive that inspired this question and did scale conversion. Her head stock if full size is just about 8' now while  she will be made more to look like Sierra No. 3 is 8' too wide for British loading gauge?

Man have I been a fool for how long I have been gone. In the interest of all Polly lovers I am reviving this thread for picture and detail purposes. This tank needs more love, just like Gazelle but that is another thread for another time.

51 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

They need to be at least 5' 8"plus the width of a buffer housing (i.e. half a buffer housing outside of each buffer centre) so 6 feet is a bit skinny. You really need a clear dimensioned drawing of whatever is is you're thinking of, as there isn't a standard answer. 

Amen, that was why I started this thread. Many drawings I have are very obtuse on exactly  how wide the buffer/headstock is meant to be. I see so many like big Bertha above and looks off. Maybe if I connect the dots digitally a straight line from them and using that drawings scale figure it out.

Unless someone has some clean drawaings of say a Black five and random Pug I am not sure.

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Whilst the buffer centres are more or less standardised at 5'8", as mentioned by Wickham Green, the width of the buffer beam* itself can be anything from 'just wide enough to bolt the buffers on to' to the maximum width permitted by the loading gauge. That dimension depends on the amount of end throw at the buffer beam. A short 0-4-0 will have much less end throw than a large 4-6-0, so can have a wider buffer beam before it starts hitting platform edges on curves. 

 

So a black five could be said to have a 7 foot wide beam, and a E2 much thiner maybe 6 foot?

15 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

based on this drawing, i would guess that the bufferbeam is 7'7"

So one could say average sizes are between 7' and 8' on locomotives. Now rolling stock needs a average like LBSC coaches and LNER express services, and ouf course trucks and vans. 

As I say I'm trying to get a good size basis as some of the engines in my planned toy line are modified (shorter cowcatcher and such) designs from around the world and some fictional designs as in my toy line they are meant to have a toy feel, not a model feel. The greble/nerny's will be there but more like a Smokey Joy than a Hornby High detail Terrier. 

If you take my meaning of course my good friend.

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

A quick dip into Russell's 'Southern Locomotives' finds buffer beam/running plate widths between 7'6'' and a shade over 9' ....... buffer centres are more or less standardised at 5'8''-ish.

Thank you, I have always know buffers ha a specific space, some industrial macines running larger buffer plates to accommodate (such as the Port Par twins) so,that is good to know rarely are the running board s more than 9' but it does happen. 

2 hours ago, sir douglas said:

welcome back, havent seen anything from you for years

 

the 8'4" is width over footplate and steps, the bufferbeams are a bit narrower and the widest part are the cylinders at 8'11"

Glad to be back, my friend.

So if I am understanding you the width I call buffer beams (the whole flat piece sitting 90°s to the footplate infront that the buffers and coupling mount) is part of the running board and so the 8' 4" is how wide that plate is? Just making sure. 

If I sound like I am forgetful on things, had a minor incident with a prescription and it one you never want to screw up dosages on. But I am running well though a tad addled, but that improves over time.

Hey everyone,

Wow this place is quite dusty indeed, sorry for being gone so long life got complicated. Still working on fixing the damage, not any body damage just mental ones. But that is neither here nor there for my posts in upcoming future, I have found my calling is making Toys after getting into the hobby and it may take ages to get my lines out I am not gonna give in.

And that my friends is one reason I am back, while my toyline is primarily Action Figure based the world it takes place in has trains that are alive just like the other toys (think of the world here as Toy Story only humans have never been around the world mirroring our own with buildings and roads but only toys live here) and while I will be taking liberties with locomotives (some fictional designs some inspired by real train toys I have) I want to give some semblance of real locomotive design. Which means parts are to be scaled accordingly.

I have been checking every engine drawing I can and have not found a clear answer to withs of the buffer beams I think one on Big Bertha said her beam was 8 feet 4 but I couldn't quite make it out. 

Anyone know the average sizes of buffer beams (I do mean the flat part we see looking head on just so my jabbering makes sense) both locomotive and rolling stock wise? 

Sorry for the odd question I just need to figure out their size in scale and it is so much easier with real measurement s to follow.

Hope you are all doing ok right now and look forward to hearing from you again.

Stay safe,

Joey "844fan" Tripp Nimmo

Not just in the USA - I see your “six blasted guide wheels” and raise you a booster drive to a six wheel front bogie. German Pfalz (Palatine) Railway.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Pfaelzische_P_3.2.jpg

Sorry for the long wait for reply. That is both adorabe and odd at the same time I kinda want to add it to my roster now.

I believe the term 'pony truck' usually refers to the thing that carries the smokebox end wheels, and, as you can see from the photo of the Ivatt one, is pivoted behind the axle while still supporting the front of the loco, the intention being to guide or lead the driving wheels into curves or junctions, so that riding is improved as well as weight distributed.  The wheels at the rear of a prairie tank, under the bunker are more likely to be carried in a 'radial truck', pivoted above the centre of the axle and sprung to perform the guiding/leading function.  

 

These are both usually simply pivoted in the appropriate place on models, and maybe lightly sprung with a brass strip especially if they play a part in picking up current, the rear ones often being actually 'ponys', without any of the support or springing of the real thing, which would be quite complex to model effectively and probably impossible anyway on RTR equipment designed for setrack curves and turnouts.  On a Bachmann 56xx 0-6-2, the rear wheels simply float about in a hole in the chassis that is too big for them, and are guided about the place by their own flanges.  Crude, but it works well enough and you'd have to be a dedicated purist to be offended by the 'action'.

Dave Holt gives his method of springing pony trucks here, and Mark Humphrys' solution to a heavy radial truck is shown here.

 

In both cases, the vertical springing is on both sides. A single vertical spring can load the truck asymmetically on curves, and is therefore undesirable. It is also sensible to segregate the vertical springing and any lateral springing, because the forces required are significantly different.

That's certainly how the Bachman Radial Tank works (minus any side control), but a full size radial 'truck'* isn't really a truck at all. Rather, the axleboxes are allowed to move sideways in specially shaped hornguides fixed to the mainframes that cause the wheels to steer just as if they were mounted on a Bissell truck, so the axle hence remains 'radial' to the track curvature.

 

The Cartazzi axleboxes used on Gresley Pacifics are radial boxes with side control provided by inclined planes on top where the loco's weight is supported, but radial axles were very widely used in tank engines with a leading and/or trailing axle (0-4-2T, 2-4-2T, 0-6-2T etc) and I don't know what, if any, side control most designs employed.

 

* Look up 'radial truck' on Wikipedia and you'll find a description of a bogie with multiple steering axles that isn't quite the same thing.

I agree with Flying Pig. The use of radial axleboxes instead of a Bissel pony truck was obviously sufficiently unusual for it became noted as part of the class name. Hence the Adams' LSWR radial 4-4-2, the Brighton radial 0-6-2, such as Bachmann's E4, and the L&YR radial 2-4-2 (again Bachmann) classes come to mind, and Wikipedia cites an LNWR class, perhaps their 0-4-2ST; their Coal Tanks etc having normal pony truck arrangements.

The use of radial axleboxes for trailing axles was so common as to be normal practice up to and including the LNER's Pacifics and 2-6-2s. Actual trailing pony trucks were relatively rare. The LNWR Coal tanks were, as far as I am aware, fitted with radial axleboxes.

In contrast, radial axleboxes at the leading end were not common, pony trucks being normal, but there are examples, including most of the 2-4-2 tanks.

 

Jim

Ok I did not mean for the large debate to come from my post. Like I said above I haven't learned every component of a locomotive by proper name nor how they function. I'm still a young mind when it comes to locomotive part nomenclature mainly due to the fact that 90% of the locomotives here in the USA of the steam verity are stuffed and mounted I never have the chance to go see them in action or be offered a chance to climb in a cab.

But as for my input I have seen Radial Axels that are nothing more than a sturdier replica of their front companions. You see some strange things in the US when it comes to steam need I remind everyone of Pennsylvania's duplexs? Six blasted guide wheels for what if anything it'd make it harder to go around a curve not be a guide.

a photo of an lms ivatt leading wheel

LMS ivatt rear wheel.jpg

 

in here at the bottom is a drawing of the Kalka Shimla mallet, with side and top-down elvations of the leading wheel of the bogie and the trailing wheel on a bissel type radial

1928-02-11 kalka shimla meyer.pdf

Thank you very much Sam my good friend that is a perfect reference both the prints and photo are exactly what I've been looking for.

As to the whole naming scheme I only became familiar with the term Pony Truck in recent years as I grew up calling them as well plainly what they are "Guide Wheels". There is a documentary I grew up watching called "Golden Age of Steam Trains" and the narrator while describing how Whyte Notation works described them as such and any wheels in the back as "Trailing wheels" Drivers are self explanatory. The first time I ever hear Radial used on a locomotive was well the best example still around today on the Bluebell the Adams Radial Tanks and I had thought till now it was describing the agility of the engine not it's key Adams Radial Truck.

Ah to quote the bard "What fools we mortals be." By the way I do recommend that Documentary I mentioned as unlike many I know of it isn't just facts thrown at you and long periods of watching a engine repeatedly going down the same stretch of line with little to say along side it. This one was a documentary that got a kid with ADHD to watch it and not think of Thomas once I've seen the thing so many times now it's practically part of my DNA with how much I can quote word for word.

With that said I'll leave you with my favorite Quote from it. "The history or railroads is the history of America. Railroads were the life blood of our country." Just as the birth place of steam owes so much to those living metal beasts.  

Hey all,

Been rather busy lately with the holidays and all so I hope you all had good ones. Anyway I am working on a comic story drawn by a friend and written by me. Now I have plans for two steam Locomotives to be involved in this fiction but the problem is my friend while he enjoys railways and riding trains is not a Railwayman so I must provide him references for the parts of the said locos.

One of the locos is rather easy to get refernces of since a 0-4-0 saddle tank is not the most complex design out there but the other has some issues and even I've never seen the components in question from a good view point. The other loco a 2-6-2 Prairie has a leading set of pony trucks and a set at back for extra support and while I know what they look like from the side and front a few parts are obscured by the cylinders and such.

So I'm in need of a good vew of the mounting point of these kinds of guide wheels and trailing wheels  as well as a clear view of the whole assembly from either a Top down or bottom up view which would mean drawings 9/10.

Oh and fun fact I just got a copy of the Hayes Driver Manual for fireing a steam engine so I can be a fireman yet. Maybe a fire lighter at the least. Love the book. Anyway I do hope I made sense up above I'm just turning in for the night as I write this. Oh well I can fix it in the morning. Good night/morning to everyone.

Take care,

Joey "844fan" Tripp Nimmo

Have you had a luck in Russell's GWR Coaches for 1838 to 1913. It details the coaches of the Cornishman for which the Falmouth Coupes were built

Forgive me is that a book or website? If a book please give me the Author's first name as well so I can search for it properly. Thank you either way. 

Hey all,

Been having a weird week my nerves are just frazzeled but I've been meaning to ask this for a bit. I'm looking for information on the nonbrake equivalent of the Falmouth Coupe TRI brake coach of the GWR as I plan to have these used as express coaches. I've not had any luck trying my hand at Google and the only example I get consistently is well a Thomas character "Old Slow Coach" and she is of course the brake variety not the types I'm looking for.

I suppose I could freelance a nonbrake varient just add in windows where they are missing on the brake coach but before I do I want to see if they did have any counterparts. 

Thanks all hope everyone is feeling in a deceht holiday spirit already. Me I'm trying my best.

Take care.

ive mentioned this idea before but now ive started building it.

 

while researching North British wagons for a friend in an LNER wagon book i came across a brake van i would like to build, a number of short brake vans ran on the cowlairs rope incline in Glasgow before being rebuilt after the incline changed to loco traction

http://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/galleries/images_people/Cowlairs-Incline-45613.jpg

 

being rebuilt into covered brake vans like this

cowlairs brake (2).jpg

 

i really like the handrails and that they were only 12' 6" over bufferbeams with a 7' 3" wheelbase, today ive started drawing and making. the wheels and bearings are from wizard models, the whitemetal axleboxes are secondhand and cant remember, the drawing is partly done with the side view drawn from a flat side view in the book, the bufferbeams have been cut and drilled which sit next to the chassis drawing

brakevan NBR (1) by Sam, on Flickr

Sam once again you've shown me a amazing piece of rolling stock I must have for my CVR line. First the old van you inherited from a fine collection and with pide intend to keep it alive in his memory and now these little beauties. Can't wait to see more of the model as time permits and Rebecca looks great in her new green Livery I think her name sake would be proud.

I gave it some more thought. Does your railway buy locomotives from external manufacturers (as the Dukes were made by Dübs)? I guess it would be from the same era - 1874? So you could have a look at locos built outside of Railway-owned workshops from that period.

My railway will be capable of producing it's own locos. But it buys locos from external sources at the early stage infact it has a few American classes imported and modified for British running (All engines are locos from prior to 1900 so they fit loading gauge even before rebuilding. The rebuild is more for fitting in and stylistic choices.) The "Duke" Class in my story is actually a oddity as it is partly built at Dubs and finished at Crewe due to a production and contract problem (Still looking for a true logical reason for this). So around the era of 1878 through to 1890s would be fair game. I'm honestly thinking of a LSWR / SR A12 "Jubilee Class" 0-4-2  since they were similar to the Gladstone B1 class. (I would use the B1 class but I feel like I'd be copying a friend's railway picks.)

I asked what era you were modelling and then read this

 

 

but I couldn't delete my post as was on the phone sorry!

Fair enough. I fully understand the limits of the phones and stuff.

Deleted

Ok what was that all about?

Hey all,

Got me another poser in this lump of steam obsessed gray matter you may call a brain and I need advice. I'm working on extending my roster of passenger locos for my CVR project and am a bit flummoxed on a matter. My story on the CVR is it is like the first steam railway with wrought Iron Rails before it in that it was founded to run goods primarily with passenger traffic taking a back seat at first.

But I realized that Passenger service would become much more important with the industrial movement in the vicious circle of more jobs being created more people travelling to said job site. So I'm trying to figure a good supplement to go with the Highland Duke class I have for Express duties.

My main want is something on par with the Duke and not a logical step up. I know the Gladston B1s would be a good match but I'm not sure on it. Maybe something similar?

Also the Era I'm going for is 1900 so anything for the 1880s or 1890s would be a good starting point. Again I'm only looking for ideas and I thank you all for any help very much.

what does "Kragle" mean?

Kragle is what they called Krazy Glue in The Lego Movie. The tube they found in the Lego World was scrunched up and scratched so the only letters visable were K R A G L E so Kragle. To Lego lovers it has come to mean those who permanently fix Legos together which even Krazy Glue isn't permanent testors plastic glue is on ABS plastic since it melts the two parts it's applied to and bonds them.

Elsewhere, a few more styrene bolt heads were superglued onto my second timber wagon after not working on it for ages

wagon 4 (6) by Sam, on Flickr

It's made of wood!

Sorry my friend I just had to say it. Looking good this is how I plan to make my G scale models Rolling stock wise when I get the space. Just Wood, metal, and glue. Locomotives will be a mix of plastic, metal, and wood most likely. Hmm Anyone know a cheap source of ABS plastic you can cut into sheets?

Testors plastic glue works best with ABS after all. It's why I keep my Legos far away from the stuff. I am not a Kragle supporter.

I understand they are St. Leger winners.

 

I don't know why, Eastern region pacifics just don't 'do it' for me.

 

No wars, please....

 

Ian.

Hey we all have our likes my friend. Some hate E2s I like them, Some can't stand industrial designs though seeing the topic of this thread we are unlikely to see them in this thread. Seeing as how any design that isn't a real class or design could be called a industrial design and all.

the RHDR pacifics dont just look like the  early gresley pacifics, they are directly base on "Great northern", Gresley was also a friend of Howey and there are photos of him on the railway

I'm glad you said something Sam. I have seen many of these outlines for miniature railways and I have always had a nagging feeling Gresley had some connection to them. Now I know they are based heavily off the A1s during their test era. Huh guess that means there really is a class we could call A0s out there.

I mainly chose Hurricane as the original possibility of makijg a standard gauge locomotive due to her "Elephant Ear" style smoke deflectors (It's what my father has always called UP 844's so it kind of stuck with me. Of course the kind Scottsman is wearing now are not Elephant Ears they are quite different and I'd call em shield type if I had to since they are quite like sideways shields from a knight.) but seeing that she is more or less a A1 I may look at other miniature designs that have a design unlike others and give them the "Elephant Ears" after I design them. Eh definitely not the strangest freelanced design for my railway nah I'd say that honor goes to the Irish K3 Mogul outlined engine with Pannier tanks on it's sides.

Yeah a tender Pannier locomotive. Just came to me after I saw a photo of one of the K3s they tested all the new fittings for the "Turf Burner" with a odd set of boiler additions I thought were tanks not boilers.

 

They could employ giant drivers to operate from the tender

 

But Ents can't drive a steam locomotive they'd end up burning to death.

Here's a interesting concept for a imaginary loco anyone gave any thought to taking the locomotives of the Ravenglas and Eskdale and Romney Hythe and Dymchurch railway into standard gauge locomotive prototypes? I am thinking of doing such a thing on my line using RHDR's No. 8 Hurricane as she looks kind of like a lego model I made recently with a gift from my father.

Hmm you know all this talk on electric locos made me remember a thought I had a while ago due to my railway not having any Electric powered lines. How feasible would it be to convert a Electric to Diesel Electric? I mean a couple Generators, a good power plant engine and you already have the motors why not?  

Here's a nightmare for you...

Loline pacer.jpg

Ladies and gentlemen - less than 12ft 6ins from rail level  The Loline Pacer !

Ah's rubish you want to make a road vehicle into a rail one it's got to be a Thunderbird or a Delorean. And no Caravans they'd just get in the way of the Gronks. If anyone can tell what I'm referencing I jolly well hope it gives them a good laugh