Dana Ashdown

Just a note to those contemplating a similar conversion. Potentially easier alternatives to converting the Tri-ang L1 Class include OO Works’ BR L Class from about 15 years ago: <https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140910-suitable-tender-for-a-secr-l-class-4-4-0/>. This model reflects the condition of the class after the 1920s rebuilds, but would probably be the simpler route to achieving one as built in 1914. DJH produce(d) a white metal kit, again as rebuilt in the 1920s, which has been featured on RMWeb: <https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97286-kitbuilt-secr-l-class-from-the-djh-kit/>. I would imagine unwanted details cast into the whitemetal would be harder to remove than plastic. The L Class Tender question also came up: <https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140910-suitable-tender-for-a-secr-l-class-4-4-0/>. Mine is a budget project, so I'm not planning on any major investments if I can avoid it. Dana

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I haven't caught up to speed yet. Will there be a full passenger brake? These were common on pre-grouping trains and so would be a useful addition. Dana

Tri-ang's Rocket has a small motor in the engine itself, with all the pickups on the engine wheels. Consequently the engine is definitely oversized for OO, but I presume the tender is fine. However, because the engine is self contained, I would imagine it would be suitable for other projects. Dana

Interesting question. At the moment, I'm planning to use Precision LNER oxide for the light brown. I used it when I redid a Wrenn R1, and also when I altered a Wrenn R1 to an R, both using SEM's excellent artwork. Its probably not perfect, but it looks fine to me, so unless there is a significant difference, I'll go with it. For the green, I'll probably use the same Humbrol Brunswick green that I used for the R and R1. However, if Maunsell used a lighter green, I may have to alter my choice. HMRS do do yellow lining (sheet 105, I think), so I may use theirs — this might be the easiest approach. Otherwise, I might try a bow pen or even a yellow Posca pen. I was also thinking about printing the tender sides and splasher/cab sides with the lining and lettering, but time will tell if my skills are up to it. Dana

Thanks Jason. I've seen the semgonline page, but all the engines in SE&CR condition appear to be in overall grey. Personally, grey would be much easier to do, but I would only do it if I decided to redo the Triang L1 as an E1 Class from 1919. This would only require a change to the cab, so far as the engine is concerned. Whichever version, the Triang tender is almost useless without major modifications. Gareth, you've solved it! I have the paint, I have the technology (I think), I just need to sort out the lining transfers — possibly something from HMRS will work — and get a tender. Dana

Thanks everyone for your replies! The SE&CR Society is an idea. Although the finish looks too glossy to be undercoat, Pete's suggestion that the engine is being tested prior to the final paintwork makes sense, so I will accept that this is not the finished scheme. As to Edwardian's comment that the works grey image is similar to Maunsell's Southern livery, well you're probably correct. Here is a postcard of one of the rebuilt Southern L Class, A.781. There is an "SE&CR" plate still on the rear splasher, but otherwise its quite similar. I think, then, there may be a consensus that the L Class were delivered in a Mansell-style Southern livery, similar to the simplified Wainwright version, with SE&CR written on the tender. I'll presume Brunswick green for the time being, though the olive might be interesting to explore. Dana

Hello everyone! Last Sunday I bought a 1960s vintage Triang SR/BR L1-Class engine for eventual conversion to an SE&CR L-Class. There are a few issues, mainly with the tender, but happily it ran quite well once the motor was oiled. One thing I’ve noticed is that the motor does not protrude too far into the cab. I seem to recall that with the Hornby SR version of the L1, released in 1970, the motor took up most of the cab. The idea is to finish the engine in “as built” condition to fit a pre-Great War theme (or, in this case, a bare fit). This is an American report from 1914: However, an online troll for pictures of the L-Class in 1914 has only produced two pictures so far, both of No.779 from Borsig of Berlin. The first is in works grey (as above, but better resolution), which suggests a simplified Wainwright livery was originally planned: The second image shows No.779 at Ashford as she was finished. So far as I can make out, there is no hint of lining and no “SE&CR” written on the tender. The only embellishment seems to be the brass numbers on the rear splasher, and a perhaps a brass strip along the top of the splashers. The paint colour is definitely not Wainwright’s Brunswick Green (compare it with the rear of the tender behind the smokebox). The buffers might be painted a darker shade than the boiler and cab, so perhaps the footplate, frames and buffer housings are in Indian red, but this is not obvious elsewhere. Given Maunsell’s influence over the L-Class’ final configuration, I wonder if the locomotives were actually painted in what we now think of as Maunsell green, but without lining? Or were they turned out in an early version of SE&CR grey? Plain paintwork would make life easier. All opinions welcome! Dana

The only three stack Cunarder other than Queen Mary was the Berengaria, acquired from the Germans as a war reparation in 1920 for the loss of the Lusitania. She was launched in 1912 as the Imperator and, at 52,117 tons and 909 feet long o.a., was for a time the largest ship in the world. Although she was to stay in service until the Queen Elizabeth was completed, Berengaria had to be withdrawn in 1938 after a series of electrical fires. Re-wiring would have been too costly and she was sent to Jarrow in December 1938 for scrapping. Curiously, it is doubtful that Berengaria made many voyages to or from Liverpool, as she maintained the North Atlantic service with Mauritania (until withdrawn around 1936), Acquitania and latterly the Queen Mary. All in all, Berengaria seems to have been popular with passengers. Dana

Metcalfe's Wayside Station is Brunel's design for Twyford and Bradford on Avon. I'm not sure if other stations used this plan. Dana

For Hornby's pre-1908 C15s, you can paint the windows of the centre, ex-toilet compartment, white and restore it to the original two centre lavatories. This will not result in a perfect 2nd/3rd composite coach, but it is better than nothing. Dana

Belated Happy Birthday! Dana

Hello Eric, I've always enjoyed reading the Digest, even if I don't model LBSCR (aside from one or two wagons). I read it on a laptop, and have had no trouble with it. So, like the others have said, please don't change for the sake of change. Dana

Could you say that in German mein herr?

Triang got their idea from Canadian Pacific Railway's Class G3d. No.2335 was completed by Montreal Locomotive Works in September 1926. Dana

This is a great idea Gary! You can also do it with other 7-plank kits. I did two LB&SCR Open-D wagons using Slaters kits a while back. Perhaps not for the purist, but they're for running with SE&CR or GWR trains (eventually). I think the brake gear was from a Ratio PW kit. Dana

I sent an enquiry to the Parliamentary Archives at Westminster about the Taff Vale entry in “Return of the Working Stock (Engines, Carriages, and Waggons) belonging to Railway Companies at present in operation. (213.)” (1846, Volume XIII, page 333). Simon Gough, the archives officer, was kind enough locate it and send the entry, as follows: Taff Vale Railway Cardiff 18th May 1846 Sir, In reply to your Circular of the 16th instant, the Working Stock of the Company now consists of 12 Locomotive Engines. 23 Passenger Carriages:- First. 2 First and Second. 3 Second. 10 Third. 8 250 Coal Wagons 78 other Wagons I am, &c., Edward Kenway, Secretary. D. O’Brien Esq. At this point, the twelve locomotives include Llantwit and two others from the Birmingham & Gloucester, namely Moorsom and Columbia. Dana

Eric Gates (Burgundy) has kindly provided me with scans of two articles from The Brighton Circular that trace the history of Croydon and Archimedes: Clive Croome, ‘The London and Croydon Railway Engines “Croydon” and “Archimedes”’, The Brighton Circular, Volume 44, Number 1, Spring 2018, pages 180-6 Geoff Smith, ‘Feedback — Croydon and Archimedes — Vol 42 No 4 p182,’ The Brighton Circular, Volume 42, Number 4, Winter 2016, pages 6-9 These were inspired by an earlier question by Chris Cox and outline the known history of Croydon and Archimedes using reliable published sources (mainly D.L. Bradley, Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway; Francis Whishaw, Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, 1842); the London & Croydon Railway Minute Books at Kew (RAIL. 388/2 to /6); and the list from the Meeting of the Brighton, Croydon and Dover Locomotive Committee held on 12 April 1845 (RAIL. 386/37). The following summary touches on all the pertinent details: The relationship between George & John Rennie and the London & Croydon Railway began as early as July 1837 when the railway tendered for locomotives, and consulted with the firm on the types pf engine needed. Towards the end of August the Board of Directors indicated their desire to contract for two locomotives, providing that they were “made as duplicates of some well-known and approved engines now at work.” Days after the request was made the railway’s engineer, George Gibbs, discovered that the two engines at the factory had been “condemned” and the Board asked Gibbs to investigate before negotiating further. Consequently, no orders were given to the Rennie factory until 16 July 1838 when Gibbs, recommended that the Board purchase two engines offered at £1625 each, including tenders — one to be delivered in three weeks and the other in four months. The first, No.2 Croydon, arrived on 6 August 1838, but broke done before the month was over and was sent to Braithwaite, Milner & Company, New Cross, London, for repair. It was again out of commission by January 1840, when the Board ordered that the Rennie brothers “be furnished with a specification of the parts required for repair of the Croydon engine recommended by the Engineer (Joshua Richardson) to be supplied by them & another specification containing a detail of all the repairs stated by his report to be necessary & that they be requested to make separate tenders for each, distinguishing in the latter the cost of removal of the Engine to & from the Station.” The second, No.6 Archimedes was delivered on 14 May 1839, but was declared “very much out of repair” by September. In November Joshua Richardson, the railway’s engineer, reported that the engine “was very much out of repair,” and the Board instructed him to have the necessary repairs done. Two weeks later and little had changed, except that Richardson told the Board that Archimedes “has already cost more than any other Engine on the line.” Its was therefore ordered that G.&J. Rennie be informed of the situation “& requested to send a man to inspect the Engine before any further repairs are commenced.” Whether it was repaired at that time is not clear, but at the end of January 1840 the Board asked Braithwaite (probably Frederick Braithwaite who was operating the factory) to inspect Archimedes and report “as to the original soundness of its construction as far as he is able to form a judgement from its present condition, considering the time it has been in use.” The problems with Croydon and Archimedes seem to have been rectified as no other troubles were reported in 1840. However, in February 1841 Archimedes was delayed after a lead plug came out of the boiler. The driver was initially blamed for letting the water run too low in the boiler, but an inspection revealed that the plug hole was improperly formed. In January 1842 Croydon broke her crank axle, but the engine was not in service and the steam was off so no further damage occurred. (The diameter of the crank axles on Croydon and Archimedes were 3/4-inch smaller than those built for the railway by Sharp, Roberts & Company.) In March 1842 the London & Croydon, London & Brighton, and South Eastern railways formed a Joint Locomotive Committee by which they agreed to pool their respective locomotives. Consequently, Croydon and Archimedes would have been available for use by all three railways, as and when required. In June 1842 Archimedes was modified to burn coal, but the experiment ended in November. Neither engine is mentioned further in the Joint Committee’s records until April 1845. The locomotive pool lasted until the winter of 1845 when it was decided to dissolve the Committee. Croydon and Archimedes were out of use by this point. In April 1845 the three companies met to disperse the stock; the South Eastern’s selection was included in a list dated 12 April, and included Croydon and Archimedes. However, the engines were listed as “part sold” with a valuation of only £355 each — precisely what was meant by “part sold” remains a mystery. As Chris Cox told me earlier, the records don’t say what happened to the engines after April 1845. Bradley says the engines were taken over by the South Eastern and immediately sold, probably as scrap. If this was the case, one has to wonder why they would pay £355 a piece for them. Peter Carney theorises that the boiler/cylinder assemblies were previously sold to Maudslay, to be adapted for use in Erebus and Terror, and the “part sold” indicates this. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the historical record linking Croydon and Archimedes with Erebus and Terror. Knowing that Thomas Powell may have purchased Croydon, and perhaps Archimedes too (given the equal evaluations), it is conceivable that Powell only bought the engines, and the £355 represents the value of the tenders which might have been of use to the South Eastern. The difference between the original price paid and this final valuation is £1270, though it is doubtful that either engine could have commanded such a sum in 1845. Two other engines selected by the South Eastern were No.5 London, valued at £990; and No.7 Hercules, at £1200. Both these engines were by Sharp, Roberts & Company, the former a 2-2-2 and the latter an 0-4-2 to a Stephenson plan. Clive Croome also mentions Rennie’s request to try two engines on the London & Birmingham, as noted in Harry Jack’s Locomotives of the LNWR’s Southern Division (RCTS, 2001). The full passage from page 74 of the book is as follows: 'On 3rd October 1837 G. & J. Rennie of Blackfriars, London, asked for a trial of two engines on the L&B. One engine, “Rennie’s experimental engine, the Victoria” certainly arrived and was probably put to work by the contractors. On 21st October it collided with three wagons loaded with rails at Tring, whereupon Messrs Rennie were asked to remove it.' These two engines might have been the condemned engines noted earlier. According to the list in Francis Whishaw’s book, the LSWR, successor to the London & Southampton, had an engine named Victoria, delivered from Rennie in 1838. The L&S apparently purchased five engines from Rennie (Deer, Garnet, London, Victoria and Reed), all delivered in 1838, but Whishaw shows only four, Deer being missing. Since all of the L&S/LSWR’s engines from Rennie had to be completely rebuilt by William Fairbairn around 1841, it is probably that Deer was the first to be rebuilt. Edward Craven’s article on Monmouthsire Railway No.1, posted above by Jonathan, certainly demonstrates Powell’s willingness to take a chance on second-hand engines if the price was right. Dana

Thanks Jonathan! That's very useful. (I was amused by "Yankees" as a class designation for the Norris engines!) The more we look, the more we find. Dana

I like the first one in grey better. But I also think that the Southern green would be good if the setting is 1920s. Then again, I am rather partial to the full Wainwright treatment. I hope that helps. Dana

By way of another update on the London & Croydon’s engine Croydon on the Taff Vale, I have been in contact with the Brighton Circle about the sale to Thomas Powell. Chris Cox replied: “The relevant extracts from the London & Croydon Railway Minutes held at the National Archives were published by Geoff Smith in the Brighton Circular Vol.44 No.1, Spring 2018. These cover the purchase and disposal of Croydon and Archimedes although it does not answer your question.” As Chris doesn’t have a scanner, I haven’t actually seen the article myself, but am hoping to get a scan soon. Consequently, I cannot add anything more at the moment on that score, beyond that the London & Croydon seems not to have recorded the actual purchaser(s) of the engine(s). A list of Taff Vale locomotives from the period 1846-1850 would be useful here. The closest I have found is from late 1844 when there were ten engines inventoried, so just a year too early to be of use. A contemporary list should confirm what Basil has noted from The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway: Part 10, Absorbed Engines, 1922-1947, page K139. However, that entry says Llantwit had 12”x18” cylinders, whereby Croydon and Archimedes had 13”x18” cylinders. The Taff Vale’s two Sharp, Roberts 2-2-2s had 13”x18” cylinders, and were of similar weight to Croydon and Archimedes. An index to the Sessional Papers of the House of Lords lists from 1846 a “Return of the Working Stock (Engines, Carriages, and Waggons) belonging to Railway Companies at present in operation. (213.)” (1846, Volume XIII, page 333). This might give a clue, but it is not available online so far as I can see. Much as I believe that Croydon, (and I think Archimedes as well) was purchased by Powell, there are still those who doubt, so it would be nice to clear this matter up one way or another. A the moment about the only way to do this is through the Taff Vale’s records. Dana

Sem, it runs very well, so I would leave it as is. The outside cylinders add interest and set it apart from the usual inside cylinder types.

Linny, this is the drawing from Jenkinson, page 62.

Hello again. By way of addition and correction regarding the Norris engines, there’s Loco Profile 11, The Norris Locomotives, by Brian Reed, dating from 1971. More recently, David Hunt has written about the Birmingham & Gloucester’s Norris engines in chapter one of American Locomotives of the Midland Railway (Midland Record, No.1 Supplement, White Swan Publications, 1997, pages 2-14). Both only mention the sales to the Taff Vale and Aberdare, but there are diagrams and enough information to alter the Bachmann Norris engines accordingly. Maybe John Bull could be adapted for something as well. A layout would have to be HO gauge which shouldn’t be a problem since you would have to build most of the rolling stock yourself anyway. For anyone interested, these are from the 1841 Railway Department’s report: 1. ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842, ref..pdf2. ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf3. Taff Vale Railway, April 1841 - ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf4. Taff Vale Railway engines, April 1841 - ACCOUNTS_AND_PAPERS, Report of the Officers of the Railway Department, 1842.pdf The full report is available from Google. Google also has the Gauge Commission Report from 1845, with material on the Taff Vale. I've run out of capacity for downloads here, but this is the title page: 5. Report_of_the_Gauge_Commissioners_with_M - title page.pdf Dana

Thanks everyone! Jonathan: I sent an e-mail to the WRRC a few weeks ago, but I haven't heard anything back yet. But I'll try the Brighton Circle, just in case someone has found something there. I don't know about an article, but I'll let you know if I discover anything more than Basil has turned up. Basil: That's it. If Llantwit was built in 1838, it must have been L&C No.2 Croydon. So I'm very happy to have this confirmed! Or should I say extremely happy!!! The engines originally had 13"x18" cylinders, but these could have been changed during the later rebuilding. Ian: The dimensions for Croydon and Archimedes are according to Whishaw (1840) and a parliamentary report (1841), so probably the most accurate available, at least to the 1840/1 period. My chief reason for asking about Llantwit and Powell relates to work I'm doing on the locomotive engines fitted to Sir John Franklin's Arctic exploration ships Erebus and Terror. Past wisdom had it that Erebus' engine was formerly London & Greenwich Railway No.4 (Twells); and that Terror's probably came from the London & Birmingham Railway's stock of ballast engines. However, about ten years ago a new theory emerged that the two engines were actually Croydon and Archimedes from the London & Croydon. I won't go into the details about the theory, except that it was built upon a lot of skimpy evidence and the fact that the two engines appear to have disappeared at around the same time as the ships were being outfitted. A lot of people who should have known better bought into this theory, but I think we can now return to reality! (By the way, the Midland Journal, Supplement No.1, covering the American locomotives, has dimensions and drawings of the Norris engines on the Birmingham & Gloucester.) Thanks again! Dana

Hello! I’m hoping someone with an interest in early Taff Vale locomotives can help me. In the spring or early summer of 1845, Thomas Powell, colliery owner and director of the Taff Vale Railway, purchased one (or probably two) locomotives from the London & Croydon Railway. These were No.2 Croydon and No.6 Archimedes — 2-2-2 types completed by G.&J. Rennie in May 1838 and April 1839, respectively. They had 13x18-inch inside-connected cylinders and 5-foot 6-inch drivers. (Croydon & Archimedes Table.pdf) I presume that Powell bought the engines for use around his own works, but he subsequently sold one to the Taff Vale, by which time it was renamed Llantwit — Powell paid for a branch line between his Llantwit colliery and the Taff Vale at Merthyr Mawr, opened 25 April 1844. Croydon and Archimedes appear to have been very similar to the Taff Vale’s first pair of engines from Sharp, Roberts & Company, so this may have been the attraction. (The Taff Vale also purchased two Norris-types from the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in September/October 1845. The Aberdare bought one as well, in January 1846.) The Taff Vale connection is noted in James W. Lowe’s British Steam Locomotive Builders under G.&J. Rennie; and also in D.S.M.Barrie’s The Taff Vale Railway. Unfortunately, both sources are short on details; and the only official Taff Vale listing I have for the period dates from 1841, and does not list engines by name. Consequently, I have three questions: 1) Can anyone confirm Powell’s purchases in 1845, and subsequent resale to the Taff Vale Railway? 2) What dimensions were reported by the railway? 3) How long did it/they stay in operation? I have no access to any Welsh railway material here in Canada, so any help or ideas will be gratefully received. Dana (On a matter of curiosity: In 1835 Sir John Guest, Lewis & Company bought Liverpool & Manchester Railway Planet-type No.20 Ætna for £250. I take it that the engine was put to work on the company’s tram roads around the Dowlais Iron Works. Could someone possibly tell me if this was so, and how long the engine lasted in the company’s service? I know that in 1848 the Dowlais Iron Works employed six standard gauge engines, but I have no details.)