mikemeg

Just for the record, two test builds were done on the D20. The first used the original mainframes as first fitted to the D20s. The second used the deeper Worsdell mainframes which were fitted to some locomotives, though not all.

There were many other detail differences between the two models - smokebox door profile, piping around the smokebox etc.

The first build was based on 62372 which was a Selby locomotive for many years. The second was based on 62396 which was the last survivor of the class and the only one ever to carry the later British Railways logo on its tender. This loco was based at Hull Botanic Gardens for many years though I believe it may have finished its days in the North East.

It was a long while ago that these were done but it is a lovely kit of a very archetypical Victorian prototype.

Cheers

Mike

Re the wheels for the D20. As stated above, these locos had 6' 10" driving wheels. Most loco wheels were allowed to wear by up to 2.5 " off their diameter before being re-tyred. So 6' 8" wheels would suit (well worn but still allowable) perfectly well. The bogie wheels, on the prototype, were 4' 0" (16 mm) so for OO or EM 3' 9" 12 spoke (15mm) is the largest which can be accommodated; on P4, 3' 11" (15.66 mm) can be accommodated.

I believe the tender wheels for the D20's were also 4' 0" in order to achieve level symmetry between the loco and tender running plates. So the actual choice of tender wheel diameter should be allied to the driving wheel diameter i.e. 3' 9"  (15 mm) should maintain the running plate symmetry.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Mike

Re Arthur's Q7 kit, I did do a test build of this using the early pre-production etches. The overall loco superstructure and the 4125 gallon tender etches were completed. What remained to be developed/finalised, as has been referenced here, was the profusion of 'mechanical assemblies' between the mainframes.

The Q7 was a three cylinder loco hence there was one set of driving motion and three sets of Stephensons valve gear sitting between the mainframes. Initially Arthur considered providing various etches for these assemblies but later decided on castings for this provision. The final developments of this kit were actually interrupted by Arthur's deciding to produce a kit for the F8 which, though intended as a relative 'quickie', took longer than expected to reach production.

Given the 'issues' with the 4125 gallon tender on the LRM B16 kit, I have just actually completed Arthur's kit for this 4125 gallon tender, including using the Bradwell castings and detailing the tender front.

I am now looking at what will be needed to complete the loco itself, perhaps as a small tribute to Arthur and his work. It has been my great pleasure to work for him and with him these past years and his contribution to our hobby has been enormous.

Cheers

Mike

Richard,

The two larger holes, in the tank tops, are to accommodate the tank filler castings. The small holes at the tops of the sides of the tank are to accept the front handrail support brackets which are bent up and then fitted into these holes.

The bracket inside the cab is there to accommodate the screw reverser, which fits inside that curved attachment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Mike

Hi 'Marsh Lane',

Your original iron, the one with the collapsed tip; was it a variable or fixed temperature and what was the temperature range.

I once had a precision gold variable temperature (180C - 400C) range digital soldering set, which was inadvertently left on in its stand for nearly 24 hours. When I came to use it the whole tip had oxidised and almost completely burnt away.

My current iron - a similar digitally controlled variable temperature thing - has an automatic switch off facility after a time interval of inactivity, which can be set - now set to 15 minutes. This system was bought new for less than £40, with temperatures 180C - 480C, 60 watt rating and five different bits; so not expensive.

Cheers

Mike

Someone asked me, via a PM, how the pressure gauge above the backhead was made. The simple answer is that it wasn't actually made. Many white metal casting sprues are linked by a 1/8" diameter whitemetal cast 'rod', which is normally chucked away.

Being an inveterate hoarder and a founder member of the 'Perhaps I'll keep that bit of scrap as it might just come in useful.' club, I cut a 1.5 mm thick piece of this 1/8"  circular section 'scrap' rod for the pressure gauge. Painted white it fits the bill, though painting the graduated pressures and pointer(s) on the face of the gauge; fraid not!!

Cheers

Mike

Hi  John,

It is probably also worth mentioning that the tender rear, on all of those GS tenders (3500 and 4200 gallon) had an overlapped piece at the top of the tender rear if they used the overlapped piece on the sides. The position of the bottom edge of this piece exactly matched the bottom edge of the much deeper overlapped piece on the sides of the tender. Also, the tops and fronts of the sides and rear plates were edged with elliptical section beading.

Many years ago I scratch built a batch of three LNER 3500 gallon tenders entirely from plasticard - including the beading but excluding the springs and axleboxes which are Bradwell castings - one of which is still unattached to a loco. I will photo it from the rear at three quarter view so you can see the arrangement. On this, the overlay is .010" plasticard  (a scale 3/4") which is probably too thick and should have been .005"  (a scale 3/8").

Cheers

Mike

John,

You seem to have reached the same conclusion as I did viz These rebuilt tenders didn't enhance the look of the D20's at all; the very reverse being the case; they detracted from their look.  The coupling of these locos to their original 3940 gallon NER tenders produced a very aesthetically pleasing combination, so I left it at that.

By the end of their lives, there were a number of variations to the locomotives themselves with some having the original mainframes, others having the Worsdell frames and then the various smokebox doors carried, etc. so I left it at that. Two examples with enough visual differences but with many similarities but with both of them retaining the pre-grouping elegance of these 4-4-0's.

Regards

Mike

LRM LNER B16/1's

So after a little more scratch building then before this backhead is attached to the back of the firebox, a check to see if all is well and if it looks the part.  The weathered look of the backhead is accidental in that the basic structure needed to be painted, before anything was attached. Attaching the various fittings involved quite a lot of handling which has resulted in a well worn look. Later, all of that shiny brass will need to become a grimy copper colour.

Seems ok so now they can be finally assembled and then the loco superstructure primed ready for painting.

Cheers

Mike

LRM LNER B16/1

More detail added to both B16/1 builds in the form of the cylinder drain cock apparatus. This is all scratch built and is a mixture of brass and .020" plasticard microstrip. Again, this lot was assembled under a magnifying glass; an aid which I now resort to using more and more.

Cheers

Mike

Just to illustrate how 'revealing' these digital photos can be, on the photo, above, I noticed that the tender is around 1 mm low at the front end; this by the relationship between the tender and loco running plate. Checking the fitting of the continuous springy beams, which provide the springing of the tender, I found that the spring wire was 'threaded' through the wrong one of four slots on the spring holders, on one side of the leading wheelset, causing a 1 mm difference. Easily fixed so the tender is now level.

I would like to thank my reader(s) for their comments and support through many years and may I wish my reader(s) a very Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year.

Cheers

Mike

20 hours ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Hi Mike,

 

Just discovered your thread by chance after buying a High Levels J72 chassis for my first attempt at modelling P4! Looks like a really impressive kit, one I'm looking forward to getting stuck in with over Christmas.

 

Don't suppose you know if the chassis fits the latest Bachmann offering?

Hi Dylan,

No,  I don't know whether the High Level J72 Chassis fits the latest Bachmann J72 but if you go onto the High Level Models website, there is a contact option. This allows the user to contact Chris Gibbon with queries or enquiries and he always responds pretty quickly. So ask him the question.

Regards

Mike

54 minutes ago, micklner said:

B16 finished .

 

The Tender was stripped and the Coal plates had 3mm removed from the length and returned to the body. 

 

Avoid this kit unless very desperate !!.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mick,

Has to be said that you have made a very good job of this, despite all of its shortcomings. I/m not sure about the 'avoiding unless desperate' but certainly 'avoid unless you're prepared to rectify, amend and replace some parts'.

I'm looking forward to seeing your build of the Raven Pacific. At what period will you be setting this model;  I note that your locomotives all carry LNER pre-1946 numbers?

At least one of these locomotives - 2404 - was rebuilt with an A3 boiler, sometime in the 1930's.

Anyway, please allow me to post a photo of City of Kingston upon Hull, once again courtesy Mick Nicholson's collection.

Regards

Mike

LRM LNER B16/1's

With both tenders now complete then just the final few details on build #2, nearest the camera, and they can both travel to the paint shop. The wisp of smoke, from the one in the foreground, is just a little discolouration of the artists card, which I use as background for the photos.

For a very old kit, which has come in for some criticism, they haven't turned out too badly though, as has been said before, many of the castings I've used are from much more recent ranges and there is a fair degree of scratch building in some of the detailing.

All of the original castings, which I replaced with newer offerings were from either Arthur Kimber's North Eastern Kits or from David Bradwell, both of whom have on-line catalogues of their castings.

The error (and the only one on the tender) with the tender coal rails can, with care, be rectified, as above. The omission of the lower firebox washout plugs can be rectified by using a Markits product or, as I did, by turning down some .010" nickel silver or brass 2.0 mm inside diameter washers, leaving a .015" annulus, which can then be soldered onto the firebox sheeting using the ubiquitous cocktail stick to hold them in position.

Cheers

Mike

LNER B16/1's

The drag beam detailing is all done and the basis for the tender front detailing is also now added. Just the representation of the brake and water scoop standards housings plus the floor extension and this one will match the first one, which was done some time ago.

The front handrail stanchions will be added next to avoid damage to the further detailing as the holes are broached out for the stanchions.

Cheers

Mike

Someone asked me, via the private mail facility, where do I get the 1/16" lead sheet from. The answer is no, our local church roof doesn't now leak; I bought a 'roll' of 6" wide lead flashing - as used on roofs, etc. - some eight or nine years ago from a builders merchant. From memory there was some 30 feet of it, when purchased, and it cost around £60. This stuff can be cut with tinsnips or sawn using a junior hacksaw and can be bent, rolled or otherwise shaped very easily.

Almost all of my locomotive models have a coil of this stuff glued inside the boiler and forward of the motor, usually somewhere over the front set of driving wheels.

Even though I've used quite a bit, the roll is still  b----y heavy!!

Cheers

Mike

LNER B16/1's

A quick coat of primer; I have already primed the tender top so opted not to add another coat but just to prime  the new component.

Anyway, it looks ok and matches the drawings from which I am working. The 'dodge' on the coal rails is now clearly visible but will be totally obscured when the loco is coaled. What is also visible in the coal space are two pieces of 1/16th inch thick lead sheet, to add weight to the tender. Yet another 'addition' which will be hidden by the coal!

Also worth adding that both of these 4125 gallon tenders have fully sprung 'chassis' using continuous springy beams with  2 mm high level axle boxes and horn guides. This isn't essential though if the tender is to be used for pick ups, then springing does help that process.

I probably should have also mentioned, earlier in the builds of these two, that both locos are also compensated on the middle and rear driving axles. I made the compensating beams from scratch.

Cheers

Mike

LNER B16/1

So not being able to find a suitable casting to represent the tender filler, then one more time resorting to scratch building. The photo shows one completed and the first processes for the second; representing about thirty minutes work in total.

As this is only 5.5 mm high with the top being 6.0 mm diameter, then photographing it/them isn't that easy. The first one still needs a little cleaning up before I prime it and fit it.

Cheers

Mike

On 08/12/2023 at 16:52, Daddyman said:

I think they should resemble the real thing. 

I would absolutely agree with that statement but then, in most instances, I think they do.

Of course, if examined under a microscope, then there will be divergences from the 'absolutes' of the prototype and, depending on the skill and proficiency of the builder, those divergences may be magnified or they may be reduced. The issue is the interpretation of 'resemble'! When the essential characteristics of a prototype are reduced to 1/76th of the actual size, even with the most modern CAD systems, there are bound to be anomalies. 10 thou on the model is  3/4" on the prototype.

The alternative to using these inaccurate and unrepresentative kits, is to build everything from scratch using whatever drawings are available. But then even the works drawings were not always accurate and up to date. The 2-8-0 Austerities, built during WW 2, could vary in length by up to 1.5" and all sorts of 'expedients' were used, due to shortages.

I realise that we could debate this 'ad infinitum' and your view is no less valid than mine.

Regards

Mike

On 06/12/2023 at 16:57, 30368 said:

 

Agree rowanj, Paul at PDK works very hard to please his customers. Without these small, often one person bands, our hobby would be very much the poorer. I can think of a good few more that fall into this category such as Judith Edge Kits, HighLevel, Alan Gibson, Branchlines etc.. to name just a few. What is more these guys take the time to listen in to our meanderings on this website and offer us all much help and support.

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

 

Personally, I think we have lived / are living through a 'golden age' for model makers. The generation who have designed, produced and supplied the myriad of kits and continue to do so, provide us with a wealth of choice as to what to build and how. Sadly, some of that generation have already passed on and we must hope that a new generation takes up their work, otherwise, eventually, all that will be left will be the r-t-r suppliers and a diminished, increasingly rare and increasingly expensive supply of kits via E-bay and the like.

Cheers

Mike

LRM LNER B16/1

The detailing of the second tender is now progressing with the addition of the Dave Bradwell axle boxes/springs and long spring hangars and the castings of the later style of toolboxes. Now the scratch building must be done for the tender water filler and the detailing of the tender front and draw beam.

Looks like the join, where I rejoined the coal rails after removing 3 mm, isn't too prominent, though the nearest coal rail needs to be eased down onto the tender flare just a little. 

Cheers

Mike

LRM LNER B16/1

A couple of photos of the prototypes for the two models above. 61413 carried an original North Eastern boiler (pattern 49) from 5/1940 - 1/1952 and then from 1957 until its withdrawal in September 1961 The photo was taken during late 1960 when the loco was stored at Hull Springhead prior to its withdrawal the following year. Worth noting the external condition of this loco, which is very good for a loco awaiting its final journey.

The second photo taken at the coaling plant of Hull Dairycoates shed, in 1949, shows one of the last batch of twenty locos built, identifiable by the plain splasher fronts. This loco carried the later LNER designed boiler (pattern 49a) from 10/1947 to 12/1951, though with a much flatter North Eastern smokebox door.

Note the condition of the front footplate, which was noticeably bent and which 'feature' I haven't actually modelled. This loco was withdrawn in 5/1961.

The two photos are shown courtesy of Mick Nicholson, whose collection of photos of North Eastern and many other locomotive types, continues to be an invaluable source of information for model makers. Many of these old black and white photos have been seriously edited by Mick to remove foxing and fading but, as Mick says, none of these photos can be taken ever again.

Cheers

Mike