Chuffed 1

John, you talk about scheduled repaints but not all sets had uniform Body Inspection dates and quite often coaches that needed repainting were repainted at different times to the rest of the set. Obviously the newer built the set the less likely that this would happen, but there were an appreciable number where a set might have coaches in one livery and the rest of the set another. Set 389 (ex SECR) was one such where the outer brake composites were repainted into blood and custard, the inner 1920 thirds remained in malachite, and the BCKs were eventually repainted into BR green before 1958. (See Gould ‘Bogie Carriages of the SECR’). Set 441 was another (picture in Mike King, below). There were examples of 2-car sets, both motor and non-motor fitted where one vehicle was blood and custard, the other green.(set 331, for instance, picture in Mike King ‘Illustrated History of Southern Coaches which also has two different Continentals in a train at Victoria) As for the repainting of blood and custard Bulleids and Maunsells, I have seen a 1959-dated photo of a 3-set Maunsell on the S&D in B&C. As we know the last SR blood and custards (Mk1’s) were repainted into green in 1962, what were the SR carriage paint shops doing for the intervening 3 years? Obviously the bulk of their work would be repainting the Maunsells and Bulleids out shopped in Malachite, and for this I would pose that a different, darker green was used right up to the last green reprints in 1966. Personally I prefer the lighter shade, but I have accepted that in my chosen year, 1961, there were SR coaches running around in a different shade. So accordingly some of my coaches will be in Precision Paints coach green, and some in SR emu green. Bachmann’s later SR green is close to the former, their earlier a slightly lighter (almost malachite) version of the latter. Bachmann didn’t necessarily get it wrong. Roger

Wouldn’t disagree with most of that, but the point I was making (obviously not very successfully!) was that circa 1959 a darker shade of coach green was being used for repaints, as well as for new stock. Using wherever possible correlation with BR loco green to adjudge whether the film itself had faded, I came to the conclusion that for whatever reason, the coaching stock green was darker from circa 1959 onwards. In my opinion, much of photography would have been on the sunnier and thus more faded sides of east-west stock, in the ten years or so between repaints no doubt these sides often faded considerably. The blood and custard coaches used regularly on the Fairford branch had been considerably faded by closure in 1962, amply demonstrating the power of the sun on relatively unstable pigments. And to answer the question of the previous poster, no I don’t imagine that BR (S) ever had the luxury of ‘doing an L&B’ and turning coaches to even out fading!

Oh, and on the subject of fading, whilst the majority of the (mainly electric) commuter lines ran north-south, the longer distance lines ran east-west. Therefore fading on the north-south lines would be equally spread on either side but the longer-distance routes would have the sun concentrated on one (southern) side. Add to this, photographers back in the day would take their shots with the sun at their backs and therefore would mostly be photographing a faded green...? Perhaps, in this case, the camera sins by omission...?

I’ve spent many hours looking at innumerable colour photos of Southern BR-era coaches, where possible those with a green loco present, the better to have a reference point for chromatic accuracy (i.e. film deterioration). I have come to the conclusion, that leaving those coaches painted malachite that were never repainted into BR blood and custard or green, there were two shades used in painting/repainting. The first shade was lighter, and I presume used up existing stocks of malachite, and was used for repainting faded ( mainly Maunsell and pre-grouping) stock and painting new Mk1’s. After mid-1959 stock the green was a darker shade (though not quite as dark as Bachmann’s latter shade), and I presume that was to provide better coverage of former blood and custard-liveried stock. Before my theory is howled down, may I ask interested commentators to trawl through about six hundred colour photos from circa 1956(for malachite) to the end of Southern steam in 1967?! My layout is set in 1961; I can run both, as well as faded and revarnished stock. 1957 would be at the light end of the shade, 1967 the darker.

But when this particular programme was launched the Dapol Manor wasn’t even on the horizon!

Yes, also body too long, and no chassis ends visible, projecting vertical steel angle, generic brake linkage. After the painted on bracing on the recent toad it would seem Hornby have lost interest in authentic detail.

It’s my belief that 4w stock had been scrapped on the IoW by the mid-thirties in favour of superannuated ex-LCDR and LBSCR bogie coaches, but I may be wrong. is it me, or do these coaches have vacuum pipes and clasp brakes but no cylinders or brake gear?

Thanks for that John.

One point for the more knowledgeable, did many 4w and 6w coaches last long enough for crimson livery?

Now, but two years ago they weren’t when presumably such projects were launched!

The whole Hornby strategy appears to be directly competing in the hope it will crush the opposition . Yet in doing so they’re missing open goal after open goal in their bid to score points. Why no SECR 100-seater ( 1918 through to preservation) to go with the ‘H’? Or a Manor, or an all-new Class 47? And on the wagon front why no 13T LMS high or correctly proportioned van? How can this blind head-to-head mentality make commercial sense?

Also Bachman 9F, Dapol Die-Cast?

Seems Hornby is retreating from the lore complex pre-nationalisation stock - less labour intensive bits to stick or panelling to programme. Hopefully this is only temporary.

Considering the duplication, why was this considered as opposed to, say, a GW Manor?

Can’t believe the ‘shocvan’ in this day and age. Schoolboy error.

Regarding GWR repaints (or lack of them), I can remember seeing a Hall (I think) at Swindon in 1963 with GW on the tender and of course there was the mogul with GWR on the tender, that bequeathed it to a Manor (Frilford?)in about 1962. In Southern Vans & Coaches In Colour by Mike King, Plate 125 shows a Bulleid 2 set being shunted at Bodmin General and in the background there’s a B set still in choc and cream in July 1958! And regarding the Southern, I’ve read that an estimated 10% of coaching stock never carried crimson or blood and custard, going straight from malachite to BR green. There was a surprising degree of antipathy to BR corporate branding from ordinary railwaymen for years after nationalisation. Banbury station was still using GWR luggage labels as makeshift signage as late as 1972!

Reference the Moor St to Avonmouth empties photo above, the Birmingham banana rooms (where the produce was ripened and boxed) were directly beneath the small goods yard at Moor St, and had a lift that could lower a van at a time down to the ‘rooms’. The vans were steam heated to protect the fruit - bananas blacken below 6 degrees, which is why putting them in a fridge is a bad idea! On a similar theme, cattle were offloaded a mile away at Bordesley station and until 1959 were driven through the streets to the slaughterhouses but after one steer broke away and nearly eviscerated a bus queue in Digbeth, the council decreed that henceforward all transfers had to be done by lorry - the image of go-ahead Brum with the first major shopping mall didn’t quite gel with market men waving lassoos from the back of a 3 ton flatbed! Make an interesting cameo though!

Additional to my last. Have just received my original Airfix Interfrigo kit, and yes, it’s to HO scale. My apologies to those more knowledgeable than me who I doubted!

FWIW, I unloaded an Interfrigo van in Saltley Goods Yard one snowy morning during the Winter of Discontent. It would be in the February and we were collecting Italian peaches. I remember being astounded with the similarity to the Airfix kit I had made some ten years before, the only difference I noted at the time, something to do with the door ( the locking mechanism?) I shouldn’t be too quick to imagine this was built to the continental loading gauge as it didn’t seem much taller than a standard 12 ton van. The doorway was just above my head and I’d have been about 5’11” in my boots. Unfortunately there were no BR vehicles nearby to judge for height, in fact it was the only vehicle in the large yard, easily outnumbered by the five shunters and the clerk in the office! Just eight years previously I’d taken a picture of a clerestoried departmental 6W passenger brake van in Inverness yard. All part of the passing scene!

I see the next H has been advertised by Hornby, 31177 in as-31518 condition but with cycling lion crest. A shame really that they chose this number as it lost its early crest (I believe) in early 1960. They could have chosen 31543 instead, which lasted with E/C until withdrawal in July 1963. Also, though the chimney now seems more accurate, it should have SR standard stepped buffers to the rear. I wonder why Hornby choose the numbers they do. The next LN is a case in point, reboilered and recrested in 1958 when there were E/C locos that lasted into 1961. Give your locos more historical shelf-life, Hornby!

The L1 was a Southern build, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Slow Easy and Careful D class made an appearance....

The shorty 59' coaches were all built by the Southern, and excepting those repainted into crimson and cream would have been in malachite until receiving the later BR green. Many would have had Malachite re-varnished until (if at all) repainted in the early sixties. On this and other threads regarding BR (SR) green, my theory is that when BR started repainting the crimson and cream coaches they used a darker green, the better to hide the contrasting previous shades. Having repainted a Hornby Maunsell from C&C into green, I can testify that the contrasting colours show through unless several coats of mid-green (for want of a better description) are used. Much has been made of the 'unreliability' of colour photos, due to chromatic change, sunlight-and-shadow, etc., but a Colour Rail photo in the April 2017 Railway Modeller of a BR mogul at Wimborne shows the infrastructure green faded almost to grey, whilst the (scabby) driving end of a P-P set is clearly very similar to the Bachmann (later) and Precision Paints BR (SR) Coach Green. It all depends what era you are wishing to model. In the mid-to-late fifties the Hornby colour scheme is spot on; for the early-to-mid sixties, there would be a preponderance of darker green. This is a subject largely undocumented. As an aside, on the internet there are pictures of copies of the colour OPC postcard of Class 73 Electro-Diesels E6003 & 4 at Eastleigh, presumably taken in August 1962, when the latter had just been completed. The livery is mid-green with a mid-grey band along the lower body. However, on the actual postcard the lower colour is clearly the lime green as used on the Deltics and baby deltics, according with my memories of some of the first batch. Incidentally, behind the locos is a presumably recently repainted Maunsell coach in dark green. It all depends on when your era is set. 1955 would be different to 1965.

This photo would have to be pre-November 57, when it received it's second totem. According to Peter Swift, many locos carried no water treatment symbol latterly. The 8" valves were standard for the first three sets of Bulleid cylinders, in the above case without an extended smokebox. Perhaps the reason that Hornby's Rodney is selling so badly was that is in an almost unique condition in BR green (apart from 30853 1950-58) and lost its early crest relatively early. 30851 and 30852 are similarly unique for their latter years but for differing reasons. And why not do 30853, with early crest, leaving Rodney to be done later with the late emblem? Strange logic. I'm surprised they didn't start with locos with standard features before moving on to the more eclectic. By the time Hornby get round to the Lords Collingwood, Anson & St Vincent, the market will have moved on to other 'must-haves'.

Nos 263/5/6/74/6/8 and 530/1/2/3 were built with straight sided bunkers for an abortive pull-push system. Some were equipped with flared bunkers by BR (probably off scrapped class members) and 31278 lasted unchanged until withdrawn in October 1962. 263, as per the collectors club model, received its flaring in BR days, so strictly speaking, the model is only authentic as per post-1978 preservation days.

Depends how well the tyre's made. I used to work at the Dunlop, on the car balance section. Some tyres are only just this side of acceptable for the replacement market. 'Own brand' tyres are sometimes coned and liable to split! After all, tyres are hand made and quite often it's the skills or lack of which determines the finished product.