1165Valour

How often were the Hymeks used on heavy (over 10 coach) express passenger trains, and how well did they perform?

I'm trying to figure out the dates of construction and appearances for the LNWR signal boxes on the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds line. I'm especially interested in what appears to a signal box (marked "S.B." on the 25 inch Ordnance Survey map) at Huddersfield station, extending over four of the lines, between the station and goods shed: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125646026#zoom=5&lat=8615&lon=8394&layers=BT Were the signal boxes at Leeds New station built to an LNWR or NER pattern?

In addition to the types discussed here and here, were there any other major types of signal box used on the MS&LR and GCR? If anyone has photos of different types of boxes, please share them, along with data on location and date of construction, if available of course.

At present, here are my thoughts on what Great Central engines would be likely, based on engines that were historically used on the Cheshire Lines, and other secondary main lines around 1907: - For passenger trains, Classes D6, D7, D12, and Sacré 2-4-0s. Local passenger trains would be handled by F1, F2, and C13 locomotives. The top link Leeds - Marylebone expresses will likely be handled by 'Jersey Lily' C4s. - For goods trains, Classes J10, J11, J12, B9, and older Sacré 0-6-0s. Perhaps Q4s as well? - For shunting duties, I expect J58s, J59s, and N5s.

What kinds of LNWR engines would you see at Guide Bridge? Would the LNWR have been willing to work with the MS&LR/GC for Huddersfield/Leeds trains? @Compound2632 Was the state of Midland/GC relations such that the Midland might be willing to use the GC (in this world) Huddersfield station? It might be helpful for Scotland - Manchester trains. What kinds of engines could you see at Huddersfield and Dewsbury here?

Assuming the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds line had gone to the MS&LR instead of the LNWR, what GCR locos would you see on it in 1907 and thereabouts? In addition, what kinds of engines one might see at junctions with other companies, like the the L&Y, the LNWR at Guide Bridge, the Midland at Huddersfield, the GNR at Batley, and the NER at Leeds? Is there any chance a stray GWR engine could appear for some reason?

As I plan out my eventual layout depicting a world where the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds line went to the GCR instead of the LNWR, I've been trying to plan out how traffic patterns would be affected. As what would eventually become the LNWR line to Guide Bridge already existed when the Huddersfield line was being proposed, what would LNWR traffic to Guide Bridge have looked like if another company controlled the line to Leeds?

I'm also wondering if Leeds New station will still be built in 1869.

As I'll be modelling a line which really exists, I don't have quite the same level of freedom, but I can't still have a bit of fun. It's quite interesting to trace how the history of the line would be altered, beginning in 1845 and working outwards. The LNWR had planned for the Birstall branch to be the beginning of a line to Bradford, but it was defeated in favor of the Great Northern. Here, the MS&LR and GNR may collaborate on building these lines. Later on, the GNR may become a tenant at Leeds New station along with the GCR and NER. The Midland may be willing to use the main station at Huddersfield if they build the West Riding line. Lay in a spur from Hyde North to Stalybridge, and you can run through trains from Liverpool Central to Leeds.

The thing is, this very nearly happened in our world. In a meeting at Huddersfield guild hall in 1845, William Aldam, Chairman of the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway & Canal Company, proposed a merger with the Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Manchester. However, shareholder Joseph Brook rose from his seat and denounced the idea and defeated the merger at the last minute. I think the MS&LR would likely have been able to get the funds to build the line, as the H&MR&CC and LD&M already had some capital raised. As far as the Micklehurst line, Standege tunnel expansion, and Leeds New Line, that's more difficult to say. Another thing to consider is that the MS&LR and GNR would collaborate on building lines in the West Riding.

I'm in the planning stages for a Great Central layout depicting the LNWR's Manchester - Leeds line, had it been incorporated into the MS&LR instead of the LNWR. What unique MSLR/GCR track plan features should I take into account in my planning, as I turn an LNWR main line into a Great Central one?

In the Wikipedia article for Low Moor station, it mentions that through trains were being run between Leeds and Manchester Vic via Low Moor by the 1850s. How long was thing routing used? Would these have been worked by L&Y engines, GN engines, or both?

Yes, that's it.

What type of rail chairs did the Great Central Railway use in the 1900s-1920s? Were they two-bolt, or three or four screw chairs?

If the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire had retained control of the Manchester-Leeds line, how would this have affected the Great Northern's expanding network in the West Riding? For reference, here is a map of the Great Northern in the West Riding in 1888. The black lines in this case will be the MS&LR/GCR. When the relationship between the MS&LR and GNR warms, I suspect the two would probably collaborate on many of the lines in Yorkshire.

Thanks muchly, Crimson Rambler!

Hi Crimson Rambler, it seems the links to the images have since gone dead. Do you think you could reupload them?

1) There's no doubt Leeds Central would have to be significantly rebuilt, 2) I don't think anyone would have to use a reversing maneuver. The NER (ideally) would just extend their line from Marsh to enter the new Central station from the north.

In looking at the railway map of Leeds, I've been somewhat confused by the existence of Leeds New (later City) station, and an idea has started to form in my mind. What if, instead of building Leeds New, the LNWR and NER had managed to get the GNR and L&Y to agree to rebuild Leeds Central, with a connection from the old NER terminus at Marsh Lane to the remodelled station?

One interesting possibility would be the South Eastern Railway gaining a line of their own to Portsmouth. The promoters of the Direct Line considered the SER at one point, if only to make the LSWR somewhat more reasonable.

As I've been plotting out my "What if the MS&LR acquired the Manchester-Leeds line" idea, I've been trying to learn as much as I could about the other lines in the area, one of them of course being the Midland's proposed West Riding lines. In the Midland's plans for its Bradford to Dewsbury line, did they intend to build any junctions with the LNWR Manchester-Leeds line? @Compound2632

Is it safe to guess the GCR would still need to build the Micklehurst Loop and the Leeds New Line in the 1890s-1900s? I imagine that capacity on the line would still become an issue by then, even without the connection to the WCML.

Thank you, this is indeed helpful. Interesting that all the Huddersfield-Leeds trains seem to be using the Leeds New Line, unless Bradshaw just doesn't include the trains that used the original line.

Does anyone know of resources, like timetables, for train services on the LNWR Yorkshire lines, between Manchester and Leeds? Information on coach formations would also be greatly appreciated.

I'm trying to figure out what engines classes were common around Barrow-in-Furness at various points in its history, either operating from there or into via other lines, like the WCML and Midland Railway.