1165Valour

Indeed, and I suspect the GNR would have been willing to simply use this line rather build their own (rather expensive) one. The Dewsbury loop also seems unlikely to be constructed here. I seem to remember that by the 1860s, relations between the MS&L and GN defrosted significantly, and would stay positive for many years.

The LNWR's twig of a branch from Batley to Birstall was supposed to eventually run to Bradford, but the GNR's line would ultimately be preferred. Here, you may see the Batley-Birstall-Bradford line, but as joint MS&L/GNR.

I'm mulling over the idea of a "Birmingham & Peterborough Direct Railway" - it allows for the things I love: MPDs, busy main lines, and plenty of foreign companies.

As I began trying to find out what I could on the GCR's joint lines, I was somewhat surprised that I couldn't find a single published resource on the West Riding & Grimsby Railway. I'm hoping RMWeb may be more helpful. From what I can tell, the WR&G was a busy line, connecting the GNR's West Riding network with Doncaster and the rest of the GN system, for the MS&LR/GCR it provided a link to the West Riding. Collieries like those at Hemsworth and Nostell provided traffic as well, I'm sure. I would imagine then that it provide some interesting things for a model.

I had considered posting this in my previous thread on the MS&LR/GCR gaining the Huddersfield line, but I decided it would be best to give it its own thread. This scenario assumes that the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway remained in the MS&L camp, rather than eventually being absorbed by the LNWR. The MS&L now has a line to Leeds, and by the late 1850s the GN is also beginning to expand into the West Riding. Assuming the GN and MS&L still eventually become allies, what would be the likelihood of the GN's West Yorkshire network being owned and operated jointly? In 1861, the LNW's plans to extend the Birstall branch to Bradford were defeated in favor of the GN proposal - could a joint GN/MS&L line via Birstall take its place?

It may be better to have the Spalding and Bourne Railway be the "Leicester, Spalding and Bourne", and have the M&GN get running powers over the Syston and Peterborough.

I've wondered about the possibility of having the M&GN tap the Leicestershire coalfield instead of the GN & LNW Joint. Of course, the M&GN was an east-west line, which would make an extension to Leicester probably the most likely expansion they could do by some means. @Edwardian, I think you said you were fond of the GN&LNW Joint, do you know of any ways to expand the M&GN?

I remember an idea I had for a "Birmingham & Peterborough Direct Railway" - and I'm sure if I look hard enough, I'll find a real proposal along similar lines. It would very likely be a bustling trunk route, not to mention satisfy my desire to include as many other companies as possible via junctions. There's a wicked part of me that would the various lines between Birmingham and Peterborough to remain independent until the 1880s, to be merged into a mega-Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway!

As I said, lovely little line - had connections with no less than four companies.

I've been looking into the Neath & Brecon Railway - lovely little railway, and a busy one too, with the Midland Railway using it to get to Swansea and plenty of coal traffic. I can't find any images suggesting what liveries were used for engines, carriages, and wagons. Does anyone have any information on this?

Oh crumbs - I didn't see the OP wanted completely freelance companies, not real ones operating over fictitious lines. Do we have a thread for those?

Thank you John, Roy Williams' The Midland Railway: A New History may be worth a look as well.

While Ellis and Nock are almost always solid choices, I can't help but feel a bit disappointed there haven't been proper multi-volume histories of these companies.

Does anyone know what the common lever colors were in Great Central signal boxes?

At the moment, I'm looking for books on Great Central signalling and signal boxes. The GCR Society's bibliography mentions A Pictorial Record of LNER Consituent Signalling, which looks good, as does Great Central Signalman, but I'm naturally looking for others as well.

While calling any book the "definitive" work on its particular subject is risky business, the term seems justified in the case of titles such as George Dow's history of the Great Central, John Wrottesley's on the Great Northern, and John Marshall's on the Lancashire & Yorkshire. Have there been "definitive" histories of the London & North Western and Midland Railways written?

One feels for the traveller from Sheffield or Marylebone, who couldn't simply get in and get off at Liverpool Central, but would have to either reverse at Manchester Central or catch a hansom cab.

Ah, I believe I understand now. It strikes me as odd that trains coming from Sheffield over the Woodhead line couldn't just run to Liverpool Central via the MSJ&A.

Was looking into the MSJ&AR, and I was wondering if there were any through trains operated between Liverpool Central and Manchester London Road. It would seem at least possible, as the MSJ&AR allowed for it, but as I couldn't find any explicit references to such, I didn't want to assume. I suspect they must have, otherwise I'm not sure what purpose the junction at Cornbrook with the CLC served.

It would be fun to see Green and Indian Red that far south, though I wonder what goal they would have in mind in acquiring a line to Aldershot. Of course, railways have built to all manner of odd destinations - see the SER at Reading, or the Metropolitan at Verney Junction. ----------------------- I've considered several proposed lines over the years, most related to the MS&LR/GCR: - Edward Watkin's proposed Blackpool Railway; - the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton Railway, assuming it had made it to Southampton and started operating its own trains; - the Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway west of Chesterfield, because of course; - the Macclesfield, Knutsford & Warrington Railway, with the CLC and NSR jointly operating the line. Here in the US we call these "paper railroads" - loads of potential for real companies running over fictitious lines; - Watkin's proposed working union between the LSWR, the LB&SCR, the LCDR, and the SER; - Watkin's Welsh Railways Union (the Manchester & Milford may actually connect to the former city here)

I've been trying to come up with a location and backstory for the "Great Northern and Southern Railway" as depicted in the The Railway Children film from 1970. My current idea is some kind of line taking the place of the GN&GE Joint. It's also rather fun to have a railway so far from Swindon adopting pannier tanks.

It's something of a small tragedy that so many excellent books on Britain's railway history have been out of print for so long. One of the first publishing companies that come to mind is David & Charles. Their Regional History and their histories of individual companies were quite good, and are certainly deserving of a reprint. Is it known who currently holds the rights to David & Charles' catalogue?

Working out how the Great Northern's West Riding lines will be altered by a MSLR/GCR Huddersfield line is proving somewhat tricky. If I remember correctly, Watkin had wanted to build at least some them as joint MSLR/GNR lines, but evidently this never came to be. However, with the MSLR at Huddersfield, the GNR can gain access to that city with little trouble. The line between Huddersfield and Halifax may actually be built here, and the Dewsbury Loop may not even need to be built, if they can get there via the MSLR.

It seems both were solid designs, though the Jubilees and Royal Scots were able to work in different areas. On the other hand, the 61673 website says the engines were well-liked on the GC Section, which conflicts with what LNER Encyclopedia. This may be evidence they were able to perform well away from the GE Section after all.