1165Valour

The idea of the GWR absorbing the Birmingham-Bristol line and laying broad gauge is one I've found very fun for a while now.

While comparing the Thompson B1 and the Black Five is reasonable, and one can do the same to some extent with the B17 and the Jubilee ("three-cylinder 4-6-0" does apply to both), I feel I'm making a greater stretch with this current thread, as the similarities between these two classes seem to end at their wheel arrangement. The K3 was a three-cylinder design intended for express goods, but they seem to have done a bit of everything, and were spread throughout the LNER's network. Other than a tendency toward rough riding, they were very successful machines. The Crabs were also very reliable performers, doing all kinds of work across the LMS system, though they were concentrated in areas like the former L&Y network and Scotland.

I've become interested recently in comparing engines of the Big Four companies that could be said to fill similar roles. As several people have already compared Thompson's B1s with the Black Fives, I wanted to compare the B17s with the Stanier Jubilees. The B17s were introduced by Gresley to fill a desperate need on the Great Eastern lines for a fast passenger engine that could fit a relatively restrictive loading gauge. They seem to have been quite successful from the beginning, but they had less success when introduced to places farther north, such as Sheffield and Leicester (evidently they were disappointing at hill-climbing). It seems the B17s were very good engines, but they never had as much success as they did on the Great Eastern lines. The Jubilees had a rough start when first introduced, and would not become a real success until some modifications were made. They were the main express engine on the Midland Main Line, but they were also present on other lines, including the West Coast Main Line, Settle-Carlisle line, and Huddersfield line.

Here's an idea: Have the OW&WR/West Midland avoid absorption with the GWR, and then absorb the Shropshire Union Railway and Canal Company. Then, have them build a railway over the canal, giving you a main line from Birkenhead to Oxford.

The Churnet Valley line was intended to provide a fast cutoff between Manchester and Derby, would it ever have been suitable for express passenger trains?

Perhaps I could have the Class 8 and 8G 4-6-0s and 8A 0-8-0s make an appearance on the line. A pity the Class 9Q 4-6-0s ("Black Pigs"/"Collier's Friends") only came on the scene in 1921. They were good hill-climbers, being used for hard slogging over the Woodhead route, so they'd likely fit right in on the Huddersfield line.

Touché! In fairness, I made this account a few years back when I was still an avid GWR fan. While I do still like it, I've since started focusing my attention on the GCR.

It's good to hear I could run whatever I like! @Compound2632Do you have anything to add?

Alright then, another question that's come up - how would GCR trains get from Leeds to Sheffield, and then on to London? Just for simplicity, I'm assuming the MS&LR does still build the London Extension and thus become the GCR. I'm also assuming the Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction still went to the L&YR. The first route is: Leeds-Huddersfield-Penistone-Sheffield, using the Huddersfield line, Penistone line (H&SJ), and Woodhead line. Based on Dow, I know that MS&LR trains did use the H&SJ to get to Huddersfield, so perhaps it could work in reverse as well. The second route is: Leeds-Wakefield-Nostell-Barnsley-Sheffield, using the Great Northern Railway (Bradford, Wakefield & Leeds Railway), West Riding & Grimsby, Barnsley Coal Railway, and Great Central Railway (South Yorkshire Railway).

I've been going on a West Riding binge for the past few months, and I finally decided to increase my knowledge of the Midland lines in the area. After looking at the several threads on this site covering the Midland Railway's unbuilt West Riding Lines connecting Dewsbury and Bradford, I wanted to ask: assuming they had been built, what engines would have been common sights on them?

I see, but of course this scenario is supposing that the MS&L had absorbed the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line instead of it going to the LNWR. My thinking was that the Huddersfield line would be the more satisfactory West Riding-Lancashire route you mention. I'm not quite sure how a MS&L Huddersfield line would cause them to break their alliance with the GNR, but it would seem to mean that an alliance between the NER and MS&L at Leeds is likely.

When the H&BR was planning its Huddersfield and Halifax extension, were there plans to make a junction with the LNWR at Huddersfield? @Compound2632: Would the Midland have been any more willing to make any junctions with a GCR Manchester-Leeds compared to the LNWR?

Is it likely Leeds New station would still be built here? I'd hoped I could include a connection with the Midland at Leeds, hopefully they'd be more willing to do so with the GCR here instead of the LNWR.

I've heard of the Fowler 2-6-4 tanks being used to bank trains up Shap, but does anyone know of the Standard 4 tanks being used on banking duties? On the one hand, I doubt their performance would have been too different compared with the Fowler, Stanier, and Fairburn tanks they were descended from, but I'm ready to be surprised of course.

Thank you Ian - yes, I am an American modeller with an interest in the UK. I was aware of the GNR-LNWR junction at Batley, and looking at the map, I had wondered why had not been built at Dewsbury as well. I had simply thought that it may be explained by the two companies being rivals, but this makes better sense. In the initial post for this thread I explain that this is a scenario which looks at the result of the MS&LR gaining the Manchester to Huddersfield line in 1846, and then on to Leeds. This isn't quite a fantasy, as it very nearly happened in reality.

Those who know more about the Great Northern: would it make more sense for the GNR and the Huddersfield line to have a junction at Batley, as historically, or should there be one at Dewsbury also?

I'll go ahead and warn you, this thread is largely an exercise in pure fantasy. I want to take a look at the "Great Northern and Southern Railway," the fictitious railway featured in the 1970 film adaptation of The Railway Children. Edith Nesbit doesn't give a specific location for the country railway, but the film places it squarely in Yorkshire. This makes me wonder, what does the rest of the GN&SR look like? As we have so little to go on, everyone will have a different vision of it, but the Yorkshire locale makes me think. The GER had been looking for a way to the coal fields to the north, and this eventually resulted in the creation of the GN&GE Joint. In this universe, perhaps the lines that formed the GN&GE (and perhaps some lines the NER gobbled up historically) are instead an independent company?

Very nice! What's the name of your company? The name has me thinking somewhere around Shropshire...

Not sure if anyone here is well-versed in the railway politics of the Nineteenth Century, but I don't think it's too unlikely for the MS&LR to acquire the same rights as the LNWR to the L&YR Mirfield-Dewsbury line and Mirfield station. The description of the Huddersfield and Halifax Railway Extension (here) mention the H&BR approaching Huddersfield from the south and building a station of its own. Would it be likely the MS&LR could get the H&BR to agree to use their station at Huddersfield?

Just a small question on the Standard Class 6 Clans: do we know well they did on hills? They worked in some hilly regions, and I suppose they did well enough, but I was interested in finding out if there was anything more specific.

Thank you, I'm not entirely certain how busy the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line would be under GCR management. It was the least profitable LMS line to Leeds, but a GCR Huddersfield line may be different.

I admit I don't know very much about stations - does anyone know how the MS&LR's style compared with that of the LNWR, as the former will be constructing the line here?

Dealing with the question of the myriad companies and stations in Leeds, I'm guessing the relationship the LNWR and NER had will still make sense. However, in this case it'll be the GCR instead of the LNWR. It'll probably still make sense to build Leeds City station here as well.

As most of you know, in 1846 the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway seemed likely to go to MS&LR until the last minute. The next year, the LNWR would acquire it, along with its companion scheme, the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester Railway. I've been casting about for Great Central modelling ideas for some time, and recently returned to this one. My idea is to model what the line between Manchester London Road and Leeds Central might have looked like under the GCR between 1905 and 1914. I'm still looking into what engines and traffic were common on the line, but I should think it would make for a good deal of operating interest. One of my main interests in the pre-Grouping era is the diversity of companies, and this line allows me to include five (six if you have the Hull & Barnsley build its extension to Huddersfield and Halifax).

I think I may have found something that should work - the old South Yorkshire Railway's Barnsley to Doncaster line. Passenger traffic was never especially heavy on the line, but it is a spectacular example of a coal railway, with connections to collieries galore. It also allows for multiple companies to put in appearances: the L&YR, the Midland, the H&BR, the GNR, and the NER (via the Swinton & Knottingley joint anyway). I don't know if this concept has caught on in the UK as it has here in America, but several modellers are fond of "living interchanges." Where an interchange with another railroad is located, instead of it being a "dead" track ending at the backdrop, it is "live," leading to a small fiddle yard of one or two tracks behind the backdrop. Thus, if one is modelling Stairfoot Junction, where the GCR met the Hull & Barnsley, when your GCR train pulls in, you or another operator will "play" the part of the H&BR. The H&BR train will "arrive" and switch some amount of wagons from its own train to yours. I believe it may add a great deal of interest and immersion to a layout, and seems well worth it.