Ian M.

Unsure but prob. upon entry into service or soon thereafter. The photo is a pre-delivery builder grey study portrait so not surprising it lacked certain add-on details like the tablet catchers.

Fowler tender of the first type without coal doors would have been the type in 1925 when delivered.

Sorry I dropped Facebook eons ago (too much garbage). With respect to LNWR cast iron tender numberplates, do we know whether, as built and out of the shops, these were painted black w- characters picked out in white, all black, polished characters? Cheers.

Gentle nudge ;-)

Rapido, can you confirm no buffer beam numbering on the Jones Green? Any photo evidence?

The "Jones Green" livery in the center has no road number on the buffer beam. Is this correct? Also, when did "Jones Green" give way to the darker olive "Drummond Green" on the right?

Are any of those rear tender views while in SDJR or early LMS service per chance? Also, do any show the full rear-end and do they have tender and/or capacity plates? I have a theory, unverified by any photo evidence, that as delivered and upon assumption by LMS in 1930, the 1925 batch of 7Fs probably had just brass capacity plates but no tender number plates since they pre-dated 1927-28 when LMS started adding these (right?)

Late to the party here but the Fowler tenders for the S&DJR 7F 2-8-0s built by Stephenson in 1925 had certain elements of the water pickup apparatus but were not so equipped when delevered. This paraphrasing the S&DJR Trust at https://www.sdrt.org/53808-how-the-sd-7fs-came-into-being-in-detail/ I have seen at least 1 other reference (need to find it) that I recall saying the Folwer standard tenders on the 2nd batch 7F lacked the pickup scoop, the "journal" and handle to operate the scoop (which is typically opposite the handbrake handle) and possibly(?) the dome.

...picking up this old thread -- are we agreed that the 3F Jinties delivered from Bagnalls in late 1928/1929 were unlined Prussian Blue? Essery & Jenkinson seem to think so in LMS Loco Profiles on the inherited Midland and SDJR stock.

Photo evidence is here at the Excellent LBSCR.org's Terrier photo section. Look for photos showing the rear toolbox. The other Stroudley and Billinton classes at this site also show the cord either stowed or connected to the first coach. If only we had close-ups.

I am interested in Stroudley and Rusbridge patent electric communications system installed on Terriers and other LBSCR passenger equipment. Apparently, this system was patented in 1875<?> and deployed throughout by 1887. It involved (1) electrically connected handpulls in the passenger compartments of coaches with (2) connections between coaches and to all guards cabs in a rake, with (3) the ultimate connection from the first cach in a rake to the locomotive. On the locomotive there was a cord connected to the rear "toolbox" on the tender or behind the bunker on a tank. This cord connected to a cord extending from the first coach in the rake. When not connected, the end of the locomotive's cord was attached to some form of connector opposite the primary connection to the toolbox. If you look at the rear of tooboxes on LBSCR locos so equipped, you will see a line (the cord) either very taut and practicvally straight across or somewhat loose and dangling. The primary connector could be on the vertical centerline of the toolbox or to the left, with the stowage connection to the right of this. When to the left of centerline, the stowed cord appears to be across the vertical centerline. The "toolbox" evidently carried the batteries to operate the system. In the cab, there was a bell or gauge, I believe on left side interior wall just to the rear of the fireman's side entrance. There was a series of "rings" between guard and footplate to signal whether the train needed to stop or was all clear. This is what I've been able to gleen from a cursory study of available information. I would be most interested in any further details, or corrections to the above, anyone might be able to provide. For example, it would be interesting to know when the system was first deployed (I assume for example that locos, including Terriers, built before 1876 only had the system retro-fitted). Also interesting would be any detailed drawings or close-up photos of the system, particularly of the cord and its attachment to the rear of the loco, the connectors on the loco cord to the passenger stock cords, etc. Asking a lot I realize but perhaps it is out there somewhere.

I am having real difficulty finding any clear photos of the rear of LNWR tender or removed tender number plates that are not restored, even period B&W photos. Can anyone confirm whether LNWR tender number plates were cast iron or brass (or both)? If cast iron as I expect, I assume they were painted black with rims and characters picked out in white. Thoughts.

Yes, that's what it looks like. Too bad Hornby did not do a 1st/2nd but the 1st is closest.

Apologies if this has already been asked but a search did not find it: if one has space for only 3 of the 4-wheel Hornby coaches behind a Stroudely-era LBSCR Terrier, what would be the most appropriate -- 2 3rd Class and a 3rd Class/Brake, or 1 1st Class, 1 3rd Class and 1 3rd Class/Brake? Cheers.

So, 4 years on and still no Bachmann 64XX with shirtbutton logo. Also would be nice, cab rear change or no, to have 74XX in GWR and BR early as built. Would be nice to have in RTR. And shirtbutton (with topfeed) is a simple livery change so why not Bachmann to freshen the product and provide options?

Does anyone know the proper colour for the "Lubricator and blower pipe cover" in GWR green liveries pre-nationalisation? This is the rectangular piece that is just adjacent to the stack on the right side and running lengthways front to back. You can see it below (however, this is a BR(w) all black livery) from the excellent GWR Modelling site's page on the Pannier classes at http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html Among the many Bachmann 8750 offerings over the years, I have one ("GWR" #6752, 1st offered in 2001) that has this piece painted black like the adjacent boiler and stack, whereas another ("GWR" #3715, first offered in 2003) that has it painted green like the rest of the engine. I am assuming the latter is correct, since (1) it is a separate piece from the boiler, (2) based on the later production date of the Bachmann 3715 (did Bachmann learn a livery lesson and correct it by 2003), and (3) have looked to current preserved examples in GWR green (which are not always the best test of original livery details). That said, I appeal to those in the know as to proper GWR painting practice on these for a definitive result.

Bachmann makes a nice 4F in Midland Railway and a Midland 3F in LMS 1938 livery. It would seem an easy product development to offer the 4F with an LMS standard tender and the 3F in the 1923 LMS livery with numbers on the tender and the cabside LMS lozenge. Any thoughts on whether Bachmann may be planning such offerings? LMS early livery seems a rarity in OO RTR (as does Midland). A shame if one is modelling the 1920s.

Looking for a Bachmann Branchline 38-554 20T Brake Van, and could use another LMS grey with or without duckets. Excellent condition please. Shipping to United States.

Many thanks Compound2632. Moved the topic and replied here: Hopefully this is cool with the Mods.

Thanks Compound2632. Very helpful and we can continue the discussion on Midland to LMS tender plates here. I addition to your reply here: "The LMS carried out a general (re)numbering of tenders in early 1928. Midland tender engines built from 1874 had a oval plate carrying the company name and the engine number; this continued after the 1905 livery change when the engine number was put on the tender and there are instances of tenders carrying plates with their engine's post-1907 number but it is not known whether all tenders were given new plates. It seems tender number plates were not used in the company's final decade or so, but evidence is limited - not many photos of tender rears. [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 1 (Irwell Press, 2000) pp. 138-9.] In Johnson's time and later, engines generally kept their original tenders but there were redistributions from time to time - e.g. various Kirtley classes being given Johnson tenders - what isn't clear to me from Summerson but is I think implied is that tender numberplates were changed for ones carrying the number of the engine to which the tender had been reallocated. So from Midland and early LMS days, there are surviving lists of the type of tender allocated to particular engines but it is only after 1927 that the allocation of a specific tender can be tracked. As far as I can work out, a consequence of all this is that while Midland tender capacity plates survive, there seem to be no surviving tender numberplates." I located in another "textbook", Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, Vol. 1 Liveries by Essery & Jenkinson (the Bible, Vol. 1?) on pp. 156-159 & pp. 167-168 references to tender numbering and plates in the initial LMS livery scheme post-Grouping up to 1928. To summarize, of the constituent roads, only L&YR and LNER had tender-specific numbers and associated cast iron plates at Grouping and these were retained by LMS. Midland and other constuent roads (e.g., S&DJR and the Northern roads) did not have unique tender numbers or related plates. It does reference the LMS scheme in 1927-28 of assigning all new build tenders and existing tenders unique numbers and the cast iron LMS tender number plates we're familiar with in 1928 and concurrent with the livery change moving the engine number from the tender to the cabside with LMS on the tender (replacing the 1923-1927 LMS Coat of Arms on crimson lake and lozenge on black goods with engine number on the tender sides). With respect to the brass oval Midland Rwy Owner/Number plates on tenders, including a photo of the Kirtley tender from preserved 158A 2-4-0 for visual reference. Also, doing a little digging, the Wild Swan LMS Loco Profiles Vol. 10 Class 4F 0-6-0s has detailed tender drawings for this class in Midland era of standard 3250 gal. tenders (pp. 72-73) showing placement for oval MR Owner/Number and Capacity plates, and later Midland standard 3500 gal. tenders (pp. 74-75) with just provision for the oval Capacity plate - thereby supporting your point that in the later MR years there was no Owner/Number plates on tenders. Incidentally, Fowler standard 3500 gals. tenders are depicted in a North British-produced technical drawing dated 1926, also with just provision for the oval Capacity plate -- thereby implying LMS builds prior to the 1928 changes did not have tender Owner/Number plates as built. Some other nuggets, Essery & Jenkinson provide the actual LMS standard livery policy (pp. 167-168), dated 12/1923 and largely continuing MR practice pre-Grouping. This indicated that all tenders (and tanks on tank engines) should "bear a brass plate" giving the water capacity of the tank affixed to the rear of the tender or bunker. It also indicated that tender number plates, if present (i.e., L&YR, LNER and older MR tenders like the Kirtley 2-4-0), may be retained. S&DJR Fowler standard 3500 gal. and other tenders were assigned unique LMS tender numbers, and the corresponding Owner/Number plates affixed, in 1930 (p. 159) when LMS incorporated SDJR stock into LMS proper (presumably they already had the brass Capacity plates affixed as per Midland/LMS policy in place at the time of original build).

Did the Midland apply tender number/owner plates to its tenders in the 1900-1923 Period? I know LMS did after grouping, but also wonder if this was only begun with the 1927 livery/numbering changes when loco numbers came of the tenders. I am familiarwith the brass water capacity plates applied butches MR and retained by LMS, so am referring to the square iron plates mounted above the capacity plates, at east in LMS times.

What would be a good suburban loco for the Hornby bowed end non-corridor coaches that is available today for mid-late 1930s to 1948 GWR? Would 8750 or 64XX panniers be appropriate?

Picking up this old thread and possibly taking it a bit off topic. Speaking of blue vs. black liveries, were the 1922 Armstrong-Whitworth MR 4Fs delivered to the SDJR in Prussian Blue or Black? I've seen references to both and of course Bachmann produced theirs in blue. But the experts are here so I thought I could settle this once and for all.

"Parsimonious" -- love it and have not had a chance to use that term in ages. I would tend to agree, so probably black painted white (smokebox numbers and tender plates) on the raised as delivered, and not polished brass or iron, with aging over time. I knew the 7Fs came black and about the large to small boilers on the 1925 batch, but thought the 4Fs came from A-W in blue. Oh well, Phil your photo is a very helpful one. Unless the Prussian Blue showed up very dark in B&W, pretty fairly conclusive I would say.

Hello. I recently acquired a number of Bachmann SDJR locos. I am trying to confirm livery points with respect to the prototypes as delivered to the SDJR to determine if I want to attempt any alterations to bring them to as-delivered form. Specifically: 1. 4F 0-6-0, #58 (Blue) 2. 3F 0-6-0T #24 (Blue) 3. 7F 2-8-0 #89 (Black) On each the raised characters on the smokebox numberplate are white, not silver/polished iron. Was this SDJR practice and would this have been correct on delivery? On each, the tender number (The 4F and 7F are apparently correct LMS number plates) and capacity (all 3) plates have the raised characters painted white, not brass or silver/polished iron. Same question: would this have been correct on delivery? Works builder plates: on the 4F 0-6-0, the Armstrong-Whitworth plates are white painted, not brass as I assume would have been the case. Thoughts? Cabside numbers appear correct with shaded, plain gold and yellow respectively. SDJR on tenders/tanks also appear correct with the close spacing of “SDJR” on the 4F and 7F before repainting to spread on subsequent shopping (wide on the Jinty). In the event changes are suggested to the out of the box Bachmanns, does anyone have a reference for aftermarket OO scale decals of maker plates, capacity & tender number plates, etc.? Cheers.