MidlandRed

In terms of Warships and Westerns, only D864 got the brown body skirts AFAIK as well as bogies. As others have commented I also saw this a number of times when first done and didn't really notice the difference - however it was one of the first locos in BFYE livery. However this corporate livery of burnt umber underframes was widely applied at one time (probably mid/late 66 or before and even early 67), and I recall DMUs of both ex WR (Tyseley) and LMR heritage at Birmingham New Street having it, some with wrap around yellow fronts. I'm not sure whether the AL6s received it or the BSYP repaints (selected AL3 and AL4?) or even AM10s or AM4 repaints (repainted for Euston services whilst the rest of the AM10s were awaited). Not aware of any other AL class BSYP repaints. These variations of under frame colour, as with D864, were soon hidden under brake dust so it was only if you saw an ex works vehicle that it was apparent. The first time I became aware of the change to black underframes was a visit to Derby Works open day probably in the summer of 1967 when several Sulzer type 2s were ex works in blue with FYE and black under frames. I suspect many early blue transition repaints (including coaches) had burnt umber underframes (many of those early repaints had red buffer beams - however the AL3/4/6 (other than the first few AL6 from Vulcan and Doncaster) had rail blue ones - just for variety!!!! I dont think any under frames got reached by the carriage washing plants of the day - indeed I recall watching a green Warship pull a rake of coaches through the plant next to the station at Newton Abbott - and mighty fine it looked too whilst wet - reverting to faded and washed out green as the water dried. Vehicle washing has moved on significantly since then, so vehicles like class 465 (white rooves and probably 2/3 of the bodysides are white) remain in very presentable condition much of the time (graffiti artists excepted) to the extent if you see the tops of the carriages whilst crossing a footbridge even they look presentable. The tanks at the washing plant at Gillingham have Autoglym stickers on them - whether that's someone's joke I don't know but high end cars use their products!!!!

The WR actually got Stanier 8Fs, cascaded from the LM on receipt of their new 9Fs - the 8Fs were allocated to sheds like St Philip's Marsh - they were ones built at Swindon (part of the deal, and achieved through a cascade process). As I said before, they did eventually receive 92203-92250 (92221-50 having been built at Crewe) - the remainder of Swindon's late 50s build went to the ER.

This is not strictly true - the WR spent many years avoiding having them allocated to the region, and like with a new batch of Castles suggested instead of Brittanias, attempted to get authorisation for new 28xx/38xx to be built instead of 9Fs for the WR. Apart from the initial batch used on the Newport - Ebbw Junction workings the batch of 48 (92203-50) appeared at the end of the 50s and coincided with Swindon being allocated a batch to build. Even so, WR had argued originally the financial benefits of these locos over an 8F would not be realised on the WR because of different operating conditions - that presumably changed as block oil trains and the like became necessary. The original use of Evening Star on the Red Dragon was to cover for a failed Brit. The treatment of the smoke deflectors is interesting, and has been observed, was not applied to the 9Fs, which one would have thought would have created similar problems. From observation, the GE Brits got the modification (using two hand holds), whereas the WR ones got a series of rectangular cut outs, with the shiny surrounds. Did any LM/ScR locos get them (remembering the GE and WR ones ended up on the LM). I guess these new locos were launched into a newly nationalised railway system where the regions had a lot of autonomy and exhibited differing levels of parochial behaviour - so it was inevitable differing levels of problems would occur. It seems that Canton shed had a more flexible attitude than others - or maybe it's workings were just that much different from others so we're able to work with the new engines. I must say, as a child enthusiast in the Midlands in the early 60s, the Brits were viewed as one of the most prestigious classes of express passenger steam locos - the A4s, Coronation, Merchant Navy probably at a similar level along with Kings - although the latter were always treated with slight suspicion as they weren't even Pacifics!! The fact the Brits weren't located only in one region made them different also. I suspect the fact the Brits were newer was the main factor in their popularity in our eyes (everything new in the 60s tended to be brighter, shinier, bigger, faster etc - remember this all shone out in the rather grey and dank early post war urban landscape of the time - even if the Brits were quite grey and grimy at times by then).

The Yeovil cars (and previously railbuses) along with the Bridport car seem to have been BR based (but kept at Westbury) - of class 122 those seem to have been 55013, 14 and 16 at times - but Bridport (and Severn Beach) were mostly class 121. Of these, 13 moved to and fro Tyseley in the mid 60s but both 13, 14 (along with 0, 11 and 15) all moved to Scotland by the late 60s (presumably after line closures). I suspect these more westerly branch cars were provided by Laira but out based perhaps at Exeter (maybe even Exmouth Junction) initially. Details of the dieselisation of the ex Southern Devon and Cornish lines seems quite sparse - gleaning info from photos and spotting records. Line closure dates are also a good pointer (eg withered arm and Barnstaple/ Taunton) etc at the start of winter 1966. That picture of Radial Tank 30582 above is fabulous - clean condition as well.

Definitely appears to be a Doncaster thing - as well as Cravens class 105, there are pictures on flickr of Derby twin (class 114) and Metro Cammell (class 101) units on the ER in this livery variation (blue with half yellow panel) - in fact I've seen one of a class 101 in this livery but without BR arrows - it would be interesting to know the period they applied this style. As for the M50752 batch of LMR Cravens 3 car units, they were a regular feature at Birmingham New Street in the early to late 60s, on stopping services to the East Midlands (Derby and Leicester), along with Class 104 BRCW units. They also worked to Nottingham and Lincoln. Several of the twin car sets from the Manchester area (Newton Heath) were transferred to Etches Park in the mid 60s so appeared also. They appear to have lost their trailer cars in their latter days at Etches Park, and then transferring to Accrington in 1969 as replacements for the Rolls Royce engined Cravens sets (class 112/3), which were withdrawn. There's some detail on railcar.co.uk of the operations of these LMR units including scans of leaflets with route maps when the trains were first introduced.

Notwithstanding company parts bin issues, by no means all mineral train locos had relatively small driving wheels. The LNER O1 2-8-0 had 5ft 6", and the BR 9F 2-10-0 had 5' 0". GWR practice seemed to be rooted in Churchward's 28xx 2-8-0 of 1912, with smallest driving wheels of this type of loco at 4' 71/2". Presumably they had different traffic needs from other companies, not having these Midlands/Yorkshire to London block coal workings requiring relative speed also.

Does anyone know which class 122 (s) were used on Lyme Regis in its final days? I'm aware they were used on Seaton and Sidmouth as well as Bude - presumably these cars were all provided from Laira's allocation (so any from 55000/1/11/13-7) and at least one class 121 has been in photos at Halwill Junction. I suspect some of these units may have become available from other WR south west branch closures.

Presumably the prospect of telescoping coaches on a passenger train on Lickey was more of an issue of concern in terms of potential injury to passengers (apparently telescoping and other damage did occur). The Lickey large engine role was taken by 9F 92079 from May 1956. Its use on Worsborough must have been appalling for the crew banking through Silkstone - although this would probably be true for any steam banker.

Very interesting film - D5716 solo on the Condor and D5579 in it's experimental high visibility livery. Is it just me or do those roadrailer trailers look rather unstable in rail hauled mode? I recall having a kit (presumably Airfix) of one of these articulated trucks with an AEC tractor unit - in the 60s.

Yes, I had also wondered about the Nuneaton - Coventry line, as many of the collieries to the south of Nuneaton such as Griff, Wyken, Keresley linked on to that line rather than Arley and others to the north which linked to the Midland (Birmingham to Leicester). Would the route via Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington and then on to the WR from those collieries have been used - and then on to Banbury and Oxford? You're only about 45 miles from Oxford at Leamington. Conversley at Nuneaton, there was a large marshalling yard used largely for coal as the Coventry, Birmingham and Shackerstone lines all provided connections from multiple collieries. Presumably these wagons for Witney, as mentioned by the OP would be transferred by a local trip working.

You'd be forgiven for mixing the Ivatt and Standard 2MTs 2-6-0s up - they're actually very similar indeed and both given the 'Mickey Mouse' nickname. One of the key differences in detail between the two was a different cab profile to give universal route availability but 78013 and 28 had to be altered for the Leicester West Bridge - Desford branch for clearance in Glenfield Tunnel. I also didn't pick up on Poor Old Bruce's reply initially so apologies for any duplication.

The 2MTs were actually Standards (78013/28), with specially modified cabs for clearance in Glenfield Tunnel (introduced at Coalville for use on the line on withdrawal of the Johnson 0-6-0s in 1964).

The ones I saw travelling light engine went down the east side of the Perry Barr triangle travelling south to east and then towards Perry Barr station/ Aston. That route was also used in the opposite direction by ecs for a Norwich (and Harwich?) train hauled by a Brush type 2 (usually one of the ones uprated to 1600 hp) - quite a rare class for Birmingham at that time (mid 60s) - though looking at Saltley's allocation on BR database through the dieselisation period, they appear to have had several, each allocated a week or so at a time presumably for type training (they were largely Sheffield based locos).

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The other thing to bear in mind with this, pre electrification is the impact of the M1 and particularly the new trail blazing Midland Red motorway coach service which started on the day the M1 opened, and received significant publicity. Although not advertised as being particularly quick in comparison with rail, in reality the service took far less than the advertised time, and the steam services compared very unfavourably in terms of modern image and certainly in terms of second as opposed to first class rail travel.

Interesting - Bushbury had an allocation of 4 Scots at the end of the 50s, but the last 3 plus a Patriot left early in 1961, the last Jubilees having left earlier than that. Aston received 9 Brits from the end of 1960/early 1961 and retained a varying allocation until late 1964. I'm wondering whether Aston took over some duties from Bushbury. However I do recall seeing Aston's Brits on fast freight at that time also. I also recall seeing examples travelling light engine on the Soho to Perry Barr line, presumably running from New Street to Aston. Aston's Brits were 1,4,5,16,17,19,21-29,31,43,45-49 (22), though not all there at the same time! As many may know the side of the Curzon Street parcels/Royal Mail building alongside the New Steet approach carried a huge advertisement for the Birmingham - London fastest service after the spring 1967 full electrified service introduction - either 91 or 93 minutes IIRC. Certainly vastly impressive.

Thanks - I'd wondered whether Bushbury was involved - there are records and photos of EE Type 4s at both Bushbury and Aston (as well as Derby Type 2 - class 24s) in the early 60s - in fact the southern end of the WCML was a major LM area to see both of these diesel classes in the early 60s

Surprising - I'd have thought it would have been faster.

The largest locos ever allocated there was a handful of Black 5s but during the 60s basically 2-6-4T and 0-6-0 (and diesel shunters). So largely suburban passenger and goods locos - with an increasing number of diesel shunters (03, 08 and 11). The diesel units (Met Camm from the Lichfield/ Four Oaks/ Redditch services) were parked in a carriage shed further north on the east side of the line and visible just north of the Ladywood Middleway bridge - later replaced by Soho electric depot even further north on the west side. So yes the Brits would have been I would think.

A number of Brittania Pacifics was allocated to Aston during the early 60s - presumably used on the B'ham to Eustons.

Does anyone know how quickly the Birmingham blue Pullman service was scheduled?

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Indeed - which is why Fender musical instruments were not generally imported until after 1960 - there was a ban on general imports from the US prior to that - Hank Marvin's first fiesta red Stratocaster was privately imported by Cliff Richard. It it was also a matter of reducing debt and improving the balance of payments by exporting rather than importing.

Hi - slightly off topic and resulting from another thread regarding Lickey Banker Hymeks, did you have any record of the Worcester - Bristol - Newton Abbott Motorail commandeering any of these from Worcester, being observed at Abbotswood? Thanks and sorry for the slight off topic - the Motorail publicity materials and site are excellent - brings back fond memories of the late 60s/ early 70s BR era.

D5278 was parked at Peak Forest severely damaged at both ends during 1971, details and photo on attached link to the excellent Derby Sulzers site. The loco's FYE (although in green livery) doesn't seemed to have assisted it. Not 50s, or steam but definitely parked in full view for a while, although the link suggests the collision may have occurred in the Great Rocks area. One of a small batch of class 25s allocated from new to Trafford Park for specific workings from Tunstead. https://www.derbysulzers.com/5278.html