MidlandRed

Thanks, Stationmaster. The WR classifications appeared to be extremely complex - going back to the early 1950s 2.8.0 v 2.10.0 debate on the WR, the main point of the 2.10.0 is to both reduce the driving axle loading, whilst still having the rear axle driving when the loco 'sits back' when starting from a standstill (compared with a 2.8.2 which would sit back on the pony truck) - I wonder if this actually helped the 9F that much on the WR in reality given the complexities of the WR route classifications? All interesting stuff anyway, thanks to you all for the debate. PS there's a link to a video in another thread covering development of the heavy freight loco from the Stanier 8f onwards - great film including a whole section on 9Fs!

BP would have built 54 Type 2s (final 18 transferred to Derby as BP requested to be relieved of the contract owing to financial difficulties), but in addition they also built the last 29 (NER and ER) batch of Claytons.

Thanks - some great footage there, including 9Fs.

The Johnster, that may well have influenced the time taken in the early 60s. Very difficult period for the WR.

Thanks both, interesting info. I don't propose to start quoting tables but the S and DJR 7Fs, as you say, show shorter mileages as well. I will quote, however from the very comprehensive RCTS book on the 9Fs regarding the regulator and steam brake modifications. The book states:- "On arrival at Newport Ebbw Junction in early 1954, the first batch of 9Fs, 92000-7, quickly displayed two disconcerting characteristics: (1) the slow action of the steam brakes following periods of inactivity (2) the tendency of the regulator to stick wide open. In other words once the engines were up and running, they were, under certain circumstances, quite difficult to stop." The section goes on to detail the tests and modifications proposed including road trials with modifications to 92002, which showed promising results, in South Wales followed by trials with 92015 at Rugby Testing Station. The modifications are thought to have been introduced as a new feature in the batch 92030-49, but no record has been found of the exact changeover point. Retro fitting occurred to the WR locos and the ER ones at March (92010-14). The 9F received a number of mods through the years, the ER/NER fire hole door item referred to before being one of them. I dont want to prolong a conflict of opinion but surely, after the larger WR allocation of 9Fs, the description you've given of work which you've given as carried out by the 47xx mirrors that of the 9Fs? The 'availability' data is derived, as I understand, from loco record cards and other sources giving mileages, but takes account also of periods in classified shop and shed, running and exams, and also not required for service. This gives a number of days in service, and a percentage calculated of total possible days. Thus the information should be comparable across regions and classes. The LNWR 7F 0.8.0s show low availability on WR (31 locos, 57%).

Noted re the regulator problem. I have read other examples of 9Fs not stopping well. My reference is the RCTS book on the 9F. Table 11.13 of the above book also compares annual average mileage by the 9Fs by region and then other freight classes by region. For 1960, WR 9Fs did 25,800 annual miles whereas 47xx did 33,700. The average may be skewed by the Ebbw Vale workings (short distance) to an extent. It is also notable the works dwell times at Swindon were higher which would also affect this. Tables 11.14 to 11.17 give mileages by class member by region. Tables 11.9-11.11 give annual mileage, weekdays out of service, days in service and % of possible days (availability) for the years 1955,6 and 7 by region for 9Fs and other freight classes. NB at this time WR only had 8 X 9Fs (and 8 X 47xx) The comments about 8F builds are also taken from that book. It appears the WR was trying to make a case to the RE not only to build something at Swindon but also to build something they perceived more suiitable for them than 9Fs. It was up to the WR what to do with their cascaded Swindon-built Stanier 8Fs which was apparently the agreement (the 9Fs to be allocated to WR went to LMR and the first were 92008/9) - so did they replace older locos, or maybe transfer other locos they didn't like (including non Swindon-built 8Fs or WDs etc)?

Thanks for the correction, and indeed re the loco values (eg 9F = 2). Given that the LMR had operated the system with one large loco for years, one can only wonder why the WR thought it sensible to change it - maybe maintenance for a remotely allocated 9F worried them as a one off, and the nearest other shed with an allocation could have been Banbury (or actually Stafford Rd works). Anyway a 9F remained on the Lickey until dieselisation, another one appearing when 92079 was away for repairs. Regarding the oil trains, in the mid 60s the Albion block trains from Stanlow/ Ellesmere Port were worked by Birkenhead 9Fs, taken over by class 47s (and possibly class 40 though I never saw any) after the mass cull of 8H's 9Fs. They used to run back the empty tankers via Soho, Handsworth Park, Bescot, Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury etc. A treat for us spotting youngsters to see. WR 9Fs were transferred to Eastleigh for the Fawley to Bromford Bridge trains - a 9F on a heavy oil train on Lickey would be a sight to behold!!! I will go searching!

That's very interesting - and that is correct that the Swindon mods to 92002 were both retro fitted to existing locos (and notably the stored Ebbw Junction ones) and to new build. The runaway as I understood (post dating the day 1 collision between two at the shed) was also at Ebbw Junction shed but of a more serious nature even though no collision occurred but the regulator had stuck open. However this problem did not appear to be reported on the LM allocated locos in the same way at the same time. It it also seems doubtful the WR had no need for further heavy freight locos as not only did they put a case together for building new 28xx/38xx before the 9Fs were delivered, they also put together a design for a standard 8F class 2.8.0, as a replacement for older 8Fs around the country (and WR) which got into the Swindon building programme, but was changed to the 53 9Fs they actually built (though WR only received 18 of those they built - plus 30 Crewe built ones and the original 8). They also took Stanier 8Fs for some time, cascaded from the LMR in lieu of new 9Fs. The 9Fs tended to be allocated by BR to long distance fast freight flows (Whitemoor to Ferme Park; Toton to Brent; Annesley to Woodford; Stanlow - various oil trains (eg Albion)), as well as certain shorter distance heavy bulk trains working on heavily graded routes such as Tyne Dock to Consett, Brymbo, Ebbw Vale, where their power could be put to good use. It seems inconceivable the WR couldn't find such work for 9Fs (indeed it did to an extent) but the fact is their utilisation and mileages were lower than those of what could be considered locos of a similar purpose, the 9 47xx freight locos. That other regions seemed to get better utilisation from their locos suggests other factors must have been involved in the WR experience.

92220 was originally used to cover for a failed Brit on 27/6/60 on the up Red Dragon and down Capitals United. Others of the new allocations had been used on holiday specials - as you say regular use of Evening Star on express passenger turns came to the notice of officialdom when an unscheduled water stop was made at Reading and seen by higher Authority, and the realisation of the speeds and potential consequences of regular use in this way were realised. On the WR they only appeared subsequently for regular timetabled express passenger work on the rather more sedate S and DJR where their pulling power could be put to good use on the steep climbs. They continued to appear on holiday specials and other additional trains (or in lieu of failures (eg STJ's 92250 on a Gloucester to Bristol local in 1964). Tests in the early days on the Newport/Ebbw Vale ore trains included 44 loaded wagons (one train engine, one banker) whereas the previous max (unassisted) was 18 wagons. Too bad Ebbw Junction managed to crash two of them into each other at the shed on the first day (cold start regulator issue/brakes blamed). interesting you saw 92029 at STJ - however by that date the Crostis did appear on freights from the Midlands and East Midlands - 92028/9 were allocated to Saltley in the 60s and the only one I ever saw, 92024, was on a mixed freight on the Snow Hill to Wolverhampton line - possibly heading for Stourbridge Junction and south towards Worcester. This was after the transfer of the ex GW lines in the Midlands to the LMR, which possibly broadened operations of the Crostis (which was also post rebuild). Do you think 92029 had possibly arrived via Gloucester - too bad about the photo, that would have been good to see. In terms of the OP query, WRs 9Fs were based far and wide, Old Oak, Southall, Bristol SPM, Laira, Canton, Ebbw Junction, Banbury, Bath GP, Tyseley, STJ, Cardiff E Dock, Oxford, Gloucester, Bristol Barrow Road, Westbury, Bromsgrove, Neath all featuring. As as is well known, when the WR took over responsibility for the Lickey Incline the Jinties were replaced by 94xx tanks - however there were also attempts to oust 92079, Big Bertha's replacement - these were not successful and unless laid up in works (9Fs seemed to take an inordinately long time in Swindon compared with elsewhere), when it was replaced by another 9F from the WR allocation, it stayed until dieselisation - tests with a 72xx 2.8.0T were highly unsuccessful as it was out of gauge and reportedly, collided with platform edges!

The WR had 9Fs 92000-07 from new until the early 60s though it appears they tried hard not to (even suggesting a new 8F standard class build 2-8-0 based on the 28xx/38xx design). They rejected any further 9Fs for a number of years eventually taking 92203-20 of the Swindon built 92178-20 - and also receiving Crewe built 92221-50, all in the late 1950s/60. Once in service fully (92000-07 were stored after a couple of weeks in 1954 following problems stopping them when cold starting, until early 1955 after Swindon had developed rectification for the steam brake and regulator problems afflicting the Ebbw Junction batch, and they'd all been fitted - it was introduced on all new build and retro fitted to others). They were more powerful than any other freight locos on WR and highly successful in all of the regions though the WR didn't get such high mileages from theirs. Im a great GW/WR fan but even I have the distinct impression the standard classes suffered on the WR from 'anti BR' attitudes, ie anti nationalisation. I guess left hand drive locos in a right hand drive fleet are an immediate potential irritation! 9Fs were reported at Paddington on passenger services quite frequently and as stated by others, not just confined to 92220. In terms of passenger workings of WR 9Fs only 92236 and 92242 had no workings traced for the table in the RCTS book. A number were allocated to the ex S and DJR when the WR took it over, where they could use their power but not be exposed to the higher speeds (and potential wear and other issues) of other express passenger work (eg Evening Star deputising for a failed Brit on the Red Dragon). So eventually - the 9Fs seemed to be quite successful on the WR. Much of this info is gleaned from the fabulous RCTS book on the class - it contains lots of photos of them all regions but including the WR. The WR examples certainly appeared at Banbury in the Birmingham Division and further north (some also received classified work at Stafford Road). There is an interesting report (amongst many) of Swindon testing the mod carried out to the ER/NER allocations - namely fitting LNER style fire hole doors to help limit glare on the footplate. The outcome of the test to 92002 was it was not adopted, and use of the 'WR pattern shovel' in the test appeared to not be assisted by the slot type door.... The first 8, once settled down, stayed on the Newport/Ebbw Junction ore workings but ventured through Hereford on the north and west route in the early days. One other thing - 92025-9 were originally earmarked for the WR - now that would really have been interesting, Crosti boilers and all... You'll have to excuse my enthusiasm but 9Fs really are one my favourite steam loco classes!

Birds Eye also had road vehicles in the 1960s/70s - well to be precise they were SPD vehicles but painted in full Birds Eye livery - Bedford TK chassis with refrigerated box van bodies - SPDs vehicles (mostly in their own livery) had ornate cast aluminium fleet numbers in the format SPDxxx on the cab doors. There was a depot just west of Perry Barr on Wellngton Road (BCT and successors Outer Circle, 11 route) where these vehicles could be seen parked. Interestingly this large distribution depot had it's own siding (s) on the other side of the depot between Perry Barr station and Perry Barr junction (east junction on the triangle) - the couple of sidings always seemed to contain rakes of standard, dirty, bauxite coloured vanfits - which never seemed to move when I saw the location over a period of years - there was a covered unloading bay and platform part of the length of a rake of wagons but once again never seemed to be in operation when I saw it. I suspect the rail side of the operation must have ceased in the early 60s and the empty wagons simply remained there until the sidings were eventually lifted before being removed. There were no rail wagons there with Birds Eye livery during that period. Not sure if anyone has any further details?

I too don't mind the lamps etc but BR were very fastidious in the early days of corporate blue (symbol on each cab) about the alignment of numbers with the gap between the horizontal (rails?!) of the BR symbol - so this sort of hurts my eyes slightly as the symbol is either too low (at least some of the 18 built in blue had the symbols mounted just below the cab windows to avoid the works plate - the last few had the works plate moved to the door - not sure if the symbols were lower but whatever, the numbers aligned as stated) or the numbers are too high. That said, it looks cracking in that livery.

Yes (re buffer beams), but the second AL6 livery variant had rail blue buffer beams as did E3036 (and also E3039 seen at Bury from the Rail On Line photo in Evertranz's earlier post - reposted here https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h120F7C24) The first AL6 livery variant (E310x and E316x) had red buffer beams from new and some of these had no yellow panel for a short time. Another fickr view of E3036 at Chester (also posted previously). Rail Blue for sure - and unless it's my imagination, the white doesn't look as crisp as on the AL1-6 - is it possibly rail grey? https://flic.kr/p/Q3piKD Also previously posted but of interest in the corner of the photo is E3045 - another livery variant in rail blue, fye with a white cab roof? A rail blue syp AL3 in front of E3036 (E3028?). https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/h375f605d

Interesting - I guess a giveaway on this and the picture of E3028 is the non-red buffer beams. However if you compare the blue in E3036 with the adjacent DMU in rail blue, they do look different. As an aside do we know why E3036 was at Chester station with an A4 in front? E3044 certainly got repainted around this time to full rail blue fye and exhibited at various stations around the network (eg Bristol) - however it also appears in lists people recorded in store at Bury sometimes, and it looks to be in one of the Flickr pictures - it wasn't there when I went, however. The picture of E3025 seems to indicate the buffer beam was repainted red as well as the added fye.

These are fabulous 3D models. Regarding liveries, E3028 was in store at Bury, I'm pretty sure in electric blue with full yellow ends - it appears in several Flickr pictures as such - although the Flickr picture in the link shows a different shade i think it must be the colour rendering in that instance. I don't recall any of AL1 to AL5 being in anything but electric blue with the White cab tops/window surrounds and red buffer beams - subsequently with syp and then some with fye. Their next livery was all over rail blue with fyp (from overhead photos on Flickr possibly the main body roof remained white) - from 1967 onwards. Of the AL3, E3044 was repainted and used in rail exhibitions around the country in the late 60s. The AL6s were all rail blue/white cab top/window surrounds and syp - the first few of both builds (E310x and E316x) appeared without yellow panels for a short period - the first few in this number series also had red buffer beams - the remainder rail blue buffer beams. As with the AL1-5, some had fye added - on repaint, all of AL1-6 had the white cab tops painted blue and lost the polished lion and wheel symbol - replaced by a polished British Rail symbol - the buffer beams changed to black on repaint.

Excellent photo - the thing that was so shocking to a young enthusiast seeing these at Bury was these locos (the AC ones at least) represented a pinnacle of railway modernity - at least in image portrayed (steam had not long gone) and to see them covered in dust and stored (or fire damaged in the case of E3055) was quite a shock - the rooves of the locos were absolutely filthy (would normally be white).

Interstingly, also quoted from the 1963 page (class 24 and 25) on the same site "Any Peak venturing from the LMR or NER to Whitemoor was only allowed to do so if the roster scheduled the same crew to work the locomotive back home." This suggests the locos would not have worked beyond at that time.

One thing I was going to add was the dimensioned drawings do not include curve radii - for instance the body sides have a curve to cover the sole bar and although dimensions are shown for the depth to the sole bar and bottom of the body you'd have to deduce the curve radius. Also the mk 2 Pullmans have a flatter side profile than the subtle curve of the side of the regular mk 2s - what that difference is, is not stated or shown. There are various dimensions related to the widths over gutters etc etc. What the value of the book is to anyone depends on your outlook - as a mid to late 60s era youngster enthusiast living near the WCML services, this book had far more relevance to me and my memories of the renewed railway than the mk 1 book - however I had planned to get that after the mk2 one - and never did..... I guess I would pay quite a lot for one now.

The book mentioned above has a whole section on the Swindon prototype Mk2, W13252, including photos of it under construction and after completion in lined maroon, and reproductions of official drawings including the underframe. The book also deals with the ancestry of the mark 2.

The book British Rail Mark 2 Coaches by Michael Harris contains a series of dimensioned drawings of different variants.

1) Class 40 working hard in the night on a long freight train on a long up gradient - unforgettable sound. 2) DMU train accelerating from a station stop with gear changes creating wierd exhaust sounds. 3) Class 81-85 on express passenger - classic ott roaring sound in a station platform.

Another vote for Kings Cross stabling point - visible from the long platforms at Kings Cross, and containing Deltics, classes 40, 46, 47, 31 and occasionally a Baby Deltic. With a couple of mates, we would travel down from Birmingham on the WMCL, spotting en route and seeing at least a couple of WN's blue from new class 25s (usually overtaken on trip freights) and would spend most of the day there. Spotting notes from the school summer holidays in 1967 reveal members of all the classes mentioned above including D5903, green FYE on a passenger service. As well as most of the ER stock being exotic to us (we saw Brush type 2s in Birmingham on one particular service - 1E04 - or Wickham DMUs occasionally, and class 46 on NE/SW services), but the presence of lots of Deltics, D1500-1519 Brush Type 4s and Brush Type 2s was great - add in the occassional appearance of a D55xx on a train of non corridor mark 1 carriages (some blue, some red) passing York Road platform and into the tunnel, or appearing in the opposite side of the station. Even the Cravens DMUs (and later, class 116 transfers from South Wales) were exotic to us. The second favourite was Paddington and most of the locos at Ranelagh Bridge did appear in the station....eventually! DMUs there posed a challenge with 9 car trains appearing - not quite as bad as one visit to Waterloo and attempts to get all the unit numbers of trains entering and leaving the station concurrently. I recall trying both St Pancras and Liverpool St but neither having the 'action' seen at Kings Cross. I actually went round Marylebone DMU depot in late 1969/early 1970, on a Worcester Loco Society trip to London sheds. Probably about 12 of the Chiltern Line sets were present - but Kings Cross brings back the most evocative memories.

I saw a rake of these wagons at Willesden this morning when passing on a Pendolino. Maroon body with Touax in large yellow lettering. Looking brand new - nice comparison with some of the graffitied wagons in trainloads there. My attention was initially drawn to a pair of Freightliner 86s on a train. The Touax train was further north in the yard.

That's a wonderfully clear scanned photo. The yellow patch on the left nose end door does seem to be a similar location to the oval black plate on the 1967 photo. The black plate does seem to have silver text so I do wonder if it is, indeed a 16A shed plate, not unknown on diesel locos around that time. If so, and it was removed, would they have repaired the bolt holes as a possible source of drafts/leaks, and patched painted the yellow? Mysterious!

Clearly not here either - 70 mph on the through roads. The slip looks a tight turn though (possibly foreshortened in the photo).