MR Chuffer

Exactly my experience, relative newbie so went for what I thought was a common option for brush application, Humbrol Matt 106, 99, 110, 33, 100, 79 and 20, for starters. Thought it was me and my painting technique but all nearer gloss than satin. Mitigated "slightly" by using Humbrol thinners, but not happy at all...

Agreed, 2 road and multistorey would be nice, in brick and in stone, and even a single story wood double track, there seem to have been quite a few about across many pre- and post-group railways.

I've gone from nothing to the verge of track laying of a large, 20+ points BLT during lockdown, the compromise is code 75 as I would have liked to use bullhead but availability is patchy and I needed some small radius turnouts so I will be cutting the sleeper webbing and spacing the sleepers out for a better look. My tip is to not buy all the track in one go, however the tempting "free postage for quantities" may be as I've found that despite having all the track templates laid end to end, getting some actual track components and laying them in place led to some changes from the original template-based plan. Nothing like running half a dozen wagons through a series of turnouts to get the track alignment right, and now I have all my track laid out ready to fix.

A bit overpriced, I'm seeing (and have just purchased) code 75 electrofrog singles £36 and doubles at £38 at Hattons, and in stock at the moment.

One other thing I thought of overnight, you mention a MR 3835 Class, a Fowler 4F, the Bachmann model, these were built in 1911 at which time all goods locos were turned out in black. In fact, you need to go back to before 1907-1908 when goods locos were still crimson lake, and for which there are no RTR models. On the other hand, the forthcoming Bachmann 0-4-4T 1P is the pretty red RTR loco we're all craving for. Have a look at the London Road Models website for MR crimson lake kits if you're up to it.

Are we talking OO gauge, if so, my train of 12 Slater MR D299 open wagons (66,000 odd built in MR days so very common) plus MR brake van and a Bachmann MR 4F 0-6-0 with Bachmann 36-025 couplings comes to 125cm max. Hardly 5 feet even with a few more wagons - I work on 7.6cm per 9 foot wheelbase Slaters wagon when planning siding lengths. Plus I know East Midlands MR pretty well if you want real locations to start from.

Received 10 various turnouts and 12 yards of OO gauge Code 75 track yesterday from the large Widnes reseller. Long wait but they are now showing stock across broad swathes of Peco codes.

Page 104, Midland Wagons 1, D.336.

Thanks for highlighting, I'll investigate

@Poggy1165 - brilliant, thanks, a huge leap forward in my understanding and confirming what I was always thinking might be the case. I can now finish my fictional WTT in confidence. As @Compound2632 says, and confirmed by my 1910 Bradshaw's, L&Y's Exchange was the starting point for the Midland's northbound/Scotch passenger traffic, it seems to have been a fearsome rival that knew how to get what it wanted.

Drat!! Thanks for persevering with this. At least the principle is established and I'm only trying to model the arrival from Liverpool (wherever..).

I'm reading in my recently acquired "The Skipton and Colne Railway and the Barnoldswick Branch" (too expensive...!) that the Midland granted the L&Y rights over it Colne - Skipton line in 1876 to connect to the Scotch expresses at Skipton coincidental with the opening of the Settle and Carlisle line. And of course, these connections were transferred to Hellifield after the L&Y completed its line there from Blackburn beyond Chatburn, but the L&Y continued to use the Colne -Skipton line for passenger, expresses and goods. There are WTT examples and excursion papers from November 1881 that show both companies running passenger and expresses originating from Bradford and Leeds, and additionally the MR running goods from there and from Carnforth, and the reverse workings, but there is no detail beyond Colne (to Liverpool/Manchester?). It seems unlikely all MR goods trains originating from Leeds, Bradford and Carnforth would terminate at Colne, a town of 20,000 at the time and which doesn't appear to have extensive facilities for goods traffic marshalling and handover.

Yes, that was what was at the back of my mind, then as @Regularity said, not all running rights are equal vis a vis passenger versus goods traffic. There must have been a heck of a lot of MR traffic going north bypassing Manchester and as I quoted earlier from Disused Stations: "In the last years of the nineteenth century the MR alone was operating goods trains from Huskisson to Carlisle, Stourton, Sheffield, Washwood Heath, Nottingham and Rowsley." It also states that it was busy into the 1960s but it does seem a bit cramped if there was that much traffic, so, if it did originate from Huskisson - and other dockside locations, was it marshalled in another yard before onward journey?

- Which I'm angling for the (my) Midland to capture as it had goods facilities in Blackburn, a town ringed by the L&Y and at that time one of the most significant mill towns, certainly with daily direct passenger services to London, Euston and St Pancras. (Nowadays, you're lucky to get any sort of on-time service to Manchester...!) @RegularityI take your point, not all running rights are equal vis a vis passenger versus goods traffic. @Poggy1165 Phillips Park still requires a traipse north over L&Y metals. To get to the MR Colne-Skipton line of my interest avoiding L&Y metals would involve going round by Leeds and Bradford which is a bit of a stretch. So having gone as far into this as I can for now and as its a model railway and I have ample Midland and L&Y goods stock, I shall apply Rule 1 - a daily MR goods bringing the cotton in over the L&Y from Huskisson via Ormskirk and Lostock Hall, until more information comes to light. Thank you all.

BTW NLS maps I'm using Liverpool area National Library of Scotland 1892-1914 25inch map

Hi Jason, looking at the 25" 1892-1914 map on the NLS site, I just can't see any marshalling yards at or near the Walton Triangle. Are you referring to the L&Y Aintree site a little north of this? When you say Halewood, do you mean at nearby Garston which I identified, but it is in altogether the wrong direction for heading north. The CLC lines north would only get you as far as Southport, and am guessing this was commuter traffic in the main, which leaves 2 options, north on the L&NW - no!, and the L&YR, which the MR was already using to get to Scotland, and probably less so, to get to its goods facilities at Blackburn. This was an important town at the time which was served by both the L&NW and L&YR but the MR could only access using running rights, which were over the L&Y, hence the conundrum, how did the Midland get goods trains out of Liverpool and from where onto the L&Y line to Lostock Hall and beyond. As @PenrithBeacon said, railway politics were very nuanced at the time. There is the term co-opetition that probably best describes the MR/LYR relationship.

Ah, I will have to revisit, I have been scouring the NLS maps of the time and could only see the Aintree yards. But don't forget, competition or not, Exchange was the L&Y Liverpool station from whence MR Scotch expresses via the Settle and Carlisle were timetabled from running all the way over L&Y metals to Hellifield. Thx

Trying to develop realistic operating rosters for traffic into East Lancashire originating in the Liverpool area. Whilst I know MR northbound express/passenger trains started from Liverpool Exchange, up to Blackburn over L&Y rails and thence northwards to Hellifield and the Settle and Carlisle, what if there was a MR goods train originating in Liverpool and following the same route? Though I'm not actually sure that they did as L&Y seemed to run goods trains beyond Blackburn, to Accrington, Burnley and beyond onto Midland metals into Skipton. Doing the research, mainly Disused Stations, Huskisson seems a probable option, built especially by the Midland to tap into Docks traffic and connected to its allies in the area through the Cheshire Lines. Disused Stations: "In the last years of the nineteenth century the MR alone was operating goods trains from Huskisson to Carlisle, Stourton, Sheffield, Washwood Heath, Nottingham and Rowsley." It was busy into the 1960s but it does seem a bit cramped if there was that much traffic. Then there is Sandon and Canada Docks where the Midland also invested but looking at the maps, the L&Y marshalling yards at Aintree have ample space but do not connect to the CLC unless you leave the yards and head north where there is a crossover from the CLC to the L&Y after Aintree yards - for the Midland to head to Blackburn over L&Y metals - but not the other way. So, in essence, would Huskisson be the prime candidate for originating northbound, especially East Lancs, MR goods traffic or has anyone got more affirmative information? This may help understand where I am going with this Liverpool area lines Thanks for your inputs.

So, in conclusion, my takeaways are: - Local shunter deals with incoming traffic and assembles the return; after all, the "foreign" driver might not be familiar with the layout of the sidings and the sooner its been sorted, the sooner it can be sent on its way. - The loco will be allowed to coal and water as necessary, and be turned, subject to charges. It would have only come 20 miles maximum from its home depot so probably wouldn't need topping up. Well, that didn't take long, I'll create the outline agreement covering operating procedures and thanks everybody for your inputs.

It is based on a real place, the Barnoldswick branch on the MR Skipton-Colne line with the following caveats: - I've imagined a triangular junction off the main line whereas the original branch junction faced only to Skipton, and thus the L&YR has been imagined as securing limited running rights from Colne into Barnoldswick. - Population uprated from 17,000 in 1911 to over 20,000 to create more traffic interest, more on a par with Bacup (22,000+), which was a L&YR double track "branch line" terminus, and a very busy one at that. - The single line has been laid with the facilities to easily extend to double track - time and money! - such that I can have an even wider traffic profile. I read Barnoldswick was the occasional starting point in the summer for Wakes Weeks through summer excursions to the Lancashire coast, but no terminating freight traffic in real life. Again, we're talking 1900-1910 - hence my rationale for the time....

I get what you are saying, access rights versus an agreement, but my particular (single) branch line in real life did have a dedicated shunting engine until the 1st decade of the 1900s. So perhaps I assume an agreement where all arrivals are dealt with by the resident shunting engine. A town of 20,000 people at the time with an hourly passenger service to the next big town and several goods trains a day would likely be a mid-sized branch with its engine shed and shunter(s), as Bacup, Lancashire for example (but I'm not Bacup). So with what you've said, I think its reasonable to write my own agreement/rules, thanks.

Developing my working timetable for a MR pre-WW1 branch line terminus serving a town of about 20,000 people (up North...), I now have enough wagons to introduce a foreign-working daily goods, in my case, the L&YR. As a general principal, who shunts the "foreign" arrival and assembles the return working in the extensive goods yard, the locally-based shunter or the arriving engine? Is it written into the running rights that the foreign company has over the line or subject to local arrangements? There is only one, medium-sized goods shed on my layout but I read in the RCH Handbook of Railway Stations 1904 of locations, e.g. Blackburn, having 3 goods handling facilities, the L&Y, L&NWR and the MR, presumably these all have their own goods handling facilities, or are the physical assets blurred into a single amorphous location and these are just the goods booking offices? And is the foreign engine allowed to use the local coaling and watering facilities (having travelled about 15 miles from its home depot)? In my case a single road engine shed, a 42' turntable and enough stabling for 3 locos. Thanks for any insights.

You need to check out "Rails to Ripley" by Howard Sprenger to appreciate the full extent of railways in the area, great book. I got my copy off Amazon, and I used to live in Little Eaton in a house overlooking both the Little Eaton Gangway route and the branch line which was still in use in 1990, 225 Alfreton Road, last house on the left on the way out north and which features in 3 photos.

Ilkeston Gt Northern (Derbys) - see NLS map