65179

7 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

I assume that the 2mm Association went down this route to provide strength for the outer brake hanger and so you aren't trying to take something very small and stick on something even smaller (although that might be the definition of 2mm modelling!). I agree though that the latter part of this philosophy then falls apart if you end up 'cutting and shutting' to get a solebar that matches your needs. 

 

You could get the same advantage through an etched solebar detail layer and print the inner part but then that part would be only 0.6mm although that is doable - it is about the same thickness as the body sides in 2mm. However, you would then need to attach the springs - my understanding is that these are etched on more recent 2mm Assoc underframes. It could be argued, I suppose, that gluing these gives more prototype flexibility but I always think of 2mm layouts as being great examples of 'railway in the landscape' and so are viewed at a distance from which (pages of MRJ aside) you aren't going to be able to count the number of leaves in a spring.

 

I do share your thoughts on lamination - indeed a fellow modeller at South Hants MRC last night showed me an LNWR fence post that he had built up from several laminations and wanted to know if I could print it complete with the slots as he had calculated how long it was going to take to build a length of fencing. However, it may be the least worst option if it also provides strength and the springs and you (or I suppose, me, in this context!) provided the solebar (plus etched spring) that correctly matched the prototype and which just needed a underframe of the correct wheelbase. (At this point LNWR modellers and others will shudder as not all W irons are the same but that is likely less of an issue in 2mm)

 

I did supply @queensquare with printed axlebox and springs combined. However, I hadn't appreciated that the donor chassis he planned to use had the springs already in situ and I dont think he managed to extract just the axlebox. In future I would just supply the axleboxes.

Etched solebars still have their place, as you note Andy, the external V hanger and doorbanger are more easily incorporated on something like a D663A (keeping things vaguely on topic - thanks Stephen!) with a more robust end result.  I can see though that a well-designed built in solebar where V hangers aren't an issue does make it easier to hide the chassis to body join.

Here's a fellow 2mm modeller's NQP GER open with a 9ft 6in chassis using separate W irons and bits from leftover wagon chassis etches (along with one of Kevin Knight's designs on the right):

Both wagons have had the etched springs chopped off and 3D printed alternatives used instead (and the van's brakegear was subsequently corrected).

I have to say that the 2mm market is so small that I'm just very happy when producers of larger scale stuff offer any of it in our scale!  That so many people are, and have been willing to do so in the past, is a real blessing. Alongside things like Easitrac and our small band of etchers, it has transformed what's possible in the scale.

Simon

5 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

That probably depends, as far as timing goes anyway, on another conversation with Jerry - he glossed over the amount of 'cut and shut' he had to perform to produce a MR 9'6" underframe from the underframe parts the 2mm Association produce. Plans are in progress for the MR 9'6" wagons in 4mm so the bodies can easily be reproduced in 2mm at that point. Given I am designing an etched 9'6" underframe for the 4mm bodies, I could produce a 2mm one (either complete or - more likely - just the solebar overlay for an existing Association 9'6" underframe for those familiar with how those work) and that is probably the most sensible approach if the bodies are to be useful for the 'mass market' (or as mass as 2mm gets!). 

 

As far as the current 4mm MR wagons go, whilst these use the Brassmasters RCH 1907 subframe, the kit includes an additional etch to convert this to MR pattern (brake levers, external brake hanger) but which also includes other MR parts to make it more generally useful (internal brake hanger, brake lever guard, makers plates, coupling plate etc.). This detailing etch (or more likely a V2 revision) is the first step towards the 9'6" underframe and can also be sold on its own. This approach, of including a supplemental etch with the body, seems to make sense for the 2mm bodies too where the etch would be the solebar / solebar overlay. 

 

The expectation is that there will be some MR 9'6" wagons at Scaleforum, although how many designs will depend on how much the competing priority of getting a layout (Iain Rice's Butley Mills) fully ready for exhibition at Scaleforum intervenes over the summer!

Thanks Andy. Many 2mm have grown used to cutting and shutting chassis, but conversion etched parts for the existing Association RCH 9' 6" chassis makes sense.

Regards,

Simon

12 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Going forward all my wagons are '2mm capable' in that the drawings are structured such that I can produce a dedicated 2mm version (not just a uniformly scaled version) in under half an hour. This applies today to all the Chas Roberts, MR and RCH 1923 wagons. The Gloucester wagons pre-date the necessary changes in approach but I am updating the 16'6" Gloucester drawings this week to bring them in line ahead of a new 16'6" body. I will get to the 15' and 16' externally braced Gloucesters in the coming several weeks but the internally braced  ones will take a while longer.

 

Aside from requests for 7mm versions from this group, I now also have requests for 3mm versions so more scales may well follow but it is somewhat dependent on understanding what form the running gear will take in each scale so that appropriate accommodations  can be made (such as removing the solebar on the 2mm version whilst still being able to print it successfully!).

These MR wagons look lovely Andy, and some of those you've made 2mm capable sound very interesting.  Do you have any plans to do a 2mm MR D302 or D663A?

Thanks,

Simon

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now this Reverend Gentleman has me confused, since I thought that the splashers of GCR 4-4-2s and 4-6-0s were Indian red at this time,* though green later. But I'm no expert on GCR liveries.

 

*Or at least at the time, a few years before he wrote, when GWR splashers were first turning green.

If only there was some sort of book to consult

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/robinson39s-locomotive-liveries-on-the-great-central-railway/L9754

Simon 

26 minutes ago, Nick Mitchell said:

5702 Progress Report #9 - Finished

So... after the burning of copious quantities of midnight oil (even better than Welsh steam coal), 5702 Colossus finally made it to York only a year behind schedule but not without drama!

 

Having placed the loco on the track before the Derby Expo opened, all we got was a nasty smell and a sinking feeling.

The tender was very hot to the touch, and I'm glad I replaced the plastic Farish one with a lovely metal kit!

 

A convenient windowsill became my impromptu workbench for 20 mins. I wonder when the last time a Jubilee was repaired in an LMS facility at Derby?

Anyway, on opening up the tender, this is what I found:

 

 

One tantalum had evidently had a tantrum, which explained the smell and lack of movement.

Fortunately, it had done no damage to the decoder or any of the other components - and being the end one of the block of four capacitors wired in parallel, I was able to simply snip the electrical connection to just that one, and the loco could rapidly enter service.

 

 

I'm generally pleased with how the loco has turned out. Running is silky smooth, but tractive effort is not everything I'd hoped - something I can't test properly at home. Although I have filled all available space in the body with lead (total weight is 75g ) I suspect the balance is not quite right yet. My PECO-based Jubilee (that will become 45604 Ceylon) weighs less in total but seems more sure-footed. Nonetheless, Colossus looked very much at home drifting up and down the centre roads of York station all day, generally improving the ambience of the place and demonstrating how much prettier Jubilees are than A4s...

 

 

 

A day that could have been a complete disaster (from 5702's perspective) ended in triumph when it was awarded the Groves trophy.

From every other perspective, Expo 2024 was a fantastic day, and I'd like to add my thanks to the organisers, exhibitors and everybody else who helped make it so successful.

 

It might be worth trying a weaker spring at the front end Nick, before exploring the more lead in the tender option. When testing 45696 on the bank out of Bath on Jerry Clifford's layout I discovered it was a lot happier pushing up the bank in reverse. I think that's consistent with a loco where the front drivers are just being lifted slightly. 45649 has less lead, but is generally better balanced and didn't show the same tendencies.

The alternative is of course to just build another and double head...

Well done again on the Groves.

I'm now going to try and get Indigo by 90s group Moloko out of my head.

Simon

Not Tom's quality, but a few from me:

Buxton

Drws-y-Nant

Colwyn Bay Goods

Yerk

Exchange Sidings

Thanks to all the organisers and exhibitors for making it such a fun, top quality show.

Simon

17 hours ago, mikemeg said:

 

Dave,

 

I was wondering that too. I guess an unfitted freight from Northwich (Cheshire) to Hull New Inward Yard - which would probably have taken the best part of a day to cover the distance and involved one or more loco and guard changes - is a working which didn't nor ever could happen. Perhaps a 'running in' turn from York to Hull after a works visit to Shildon on its way back to the CLC.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

There's a well-known ca.1950 shot of a 6 wheel CLC brake van in use in Scotland. So there's no limit post-nationalisation. Prior to that the Committee kept reasonably close tabs on its brake vans and most would have been used internally on the system. Post-war the CLC was hiring in the parent companies' brake vans as required for 'internal use' i.e. on the CLC system and had been doing so for some time (the minutes of an Officers' meeting with CLC officials, together with those of the parent companies, in November 1945 records the pre-war cost of hiring in brake vans as .6d per mile).

Regards,

Simon

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The lines at Skelton Junction performed that task, a route through Manchester without going through Manchester, and still do to an extent. 

 

The Fallowfield loop only really had Trafford Park serving traffic, it did used to have one service per week out from Irlam Steelworks (don't remember an inward one) and the MSC also had access to the Skelton line from Glazebrook sidings.  The loop lost it's passenger service in 1958, well before Beeching and it only carried mainline passenger services going towards Sheffield Victoria thereafter losing those when Liverpool Central and then Manchester Central stopped services towards the east.  It couldn't even really offer a capacity solution into Manchester, when the Liverpool locals were stopped at Oxford Rd it was basically leaving the commuters on that line a couple of minutes walk from where Central had been either down Deansgate or Oxford Rd, had they used the loop line it would have delayed arrival into Manchester and plonked passengers on the opposite side of the centre from where they had been used to.

 

As Trafford Park lost it's industries, the docks closed and freight wound down it left just Freightliner traffic which itself was rerouted to be able to avoid going via Gorton & Ashburys, and eventually Holyhead lost it's place to Liverpool for the transit of containers which would also have seen the Fallowfield Loop close had they kept it going longer than they did.

 

Local passenger services became poor when electric trams first began running into Manchester, they were more convenient than trains on the Fallowfield loop for Chorlton, Wilbraham Rd, Fallowfield and Levenshulme as all these stations were close to main road routes.  The trains never recovered and BR clearly recognised that electifying the route to Central and running local services was not economic seeing them both cut when the Woodhead route itself was electrified to save money.

 

I still think it was wrong that they allowed building across the route in Fallowfield, it rather complicates any chance of Metrolink building an extension especially now they are thinking about circular routes in possible future phases.  But given there is only Wilbraham Rd, Fallowfield and maybe Birchfields that would really benefit - Levenshulme is well served by train as is Reddish, I don't think there is much scope unless there is a case to go for some sort of inner circle line and it serves Fairfield, Guide Bridge and then a new line to join the Ashton line back towards Manchester where it would create a loop.

When did the Haverton Hill-Glazebrooks get diverted from the Fallowfield Loop? Ca. 1986 the sound of a 37 blasting under Wilbraham Road bridge as I walked along Albany Rd to get the bus to school in the morning was always a good way to join the land of the living.

Simon

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

@65179 Thanks for that.  I can see now my mistake I was looking for tags of Deltic or Stockport and this was Deltics or Deltic Locomotive.

 

It's all about the prompt engineering these days isn't it.

 

So that Deltic is awaiting departure back to York as I can see the EMU sidings in the background.

Although I'm not much of a Deltic fan (I don't have any memory of them in service), for reasons not worth going into, I included the following as part of a response to an article on Deltics in the Manchester Locomotive Society Mancunian:

Deltics made it to Stockport from York, and on a fairly regular basis.  The actual train bringing most of these sightings was a TPO (Travelling Post Office) service.  For the period of interest, it was 1M41 21:50 York-Shrewsbury/Aberystwyth and the 1E24 22:50 Shrewsbury-York return.  The Deltic or other loco on this diagram generally worked to Stockport, giving way to an electric to take the train forward to Crewe, and then picked up the return working back to York.  The Chronicles of Napier website (www.napier-chronicles.co.uk) provides most of the information collated here.

55009 Alycidon was the first Deltic recorded as working 1M41 as early as 8th March 1974.  The last recorded is 55021 Argyll & Sutherland Highlander on 27th October 1981 (one of 8 recorded appearances). The Chronicles currently notes 60 appearances of Deltics on this train working to Stockport.  As I understand it, only 55001, 55003, 55007 and 55012 are not suggested as having worked to Stockport on the TPO. Given the time of day that this service operated, photographs are thin on the ground, but for those interested the website features views of 55006, 55010 and 55021 at Stockport. A search for Deltic Stockport in Flickr will also bring up a few atmospheric photos.”

Simon

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It was.

 

I'd like to find a picture of a Deltic at Stockport on the York-Shrewsbury and return, there must be one somewhere.  I saw one there whilst passing on an overnight train from Manchester to London, but I didn't have a camera to record it smoking away in the centre road waiting for the return train to arrive for it to take over.

Tulyarman Flickr image. Click link for full details. 

Simon

1 hour ago, Nick Mitchell said:

5702 Progress Report #8

 

 

Thankyou Simon - as usual you are right when it comes to my Jubilee-related happiness!

 

Below is my second attempt at lining the tender.

Once again it is done with Fox transfer lining, with overlapping yellow and black stripes applied separately and the black edges painted in.

I think the result is probably finer than I could have achieved with any other method, but what a tedious process it has been! Across both sides, steps, frames and rear panel of the tender, I counted 110 separate pieces of lining transfer. The loco steps and cylinders have been lined using the same method... I think I need to build (or rather finish) a couple of unlined black locos to get my sanity back. No, wait...

 

Thankyou also to whoever was behind the 3D printed Fowler axle-boxes now in the Association shop. They're brilliant. (Imagine if I'd finished off this tender 15 years ago when I first built it for an as-yet unfinished 4F and had to put Stanier axle-boxes on it??? Poor Simon might have been compelled to ask me how I could sleep at night! There is a good reason why things take me so long!)

 

In case you're wondering, the white lump in the coal space is a cover for the decoder which sticks up above the motor. It will be covered on coal.

 

 

Happy to act as your Jubilee conscience Nick! That looks fabulous! I don't envy you working out how much of it you now want to cover in muck!

You have Nigel to thank for kicking off the 3D printed axleboxes and Tony Simms to thank for the actual drawing/design. He's done a lovely job on those a well as the Johnson and LNER group standard ones.

Will you be bringing it as is to Derby?

Best wishes,

Simon

1 hour ago, Sithlord75 said:

Pretty sure you can go to Derby anyway - not sure if there is a prohibition on non- or even lapsed- members attending.  Might cost a couple of quid more to get in but that's about it.  

£10 entry for non-members. 

38 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Thank goodness for that! I've just found references to B16s on shed at 31B, and I model East Anglia wjich brings them within reach.

York B16s got everywhere.

Potentially several on March shed on some Sundays in the mid-1950s by the looks of it:

https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2015/04/march-1955-1963.html?m=1

Simon

1 hour ago, Combe Martin said:

 

To be fair to Templecombe, they had an intermittent problem for a long while that caused the whole setup to 'Play Up' with unpredictable results including 'short circuits', sometimes shutting the whole lot off, and usually being fixed temporarily by doing what I would call 'a Power Off, Power On, Reset'.  Which seemed to fix things for a while until it went haywire again.  I believe it was fixed eventually by replacing the main cable to the Powercab handset.

 

Templecombe  is also complicated to operate because of the (for northbound trains) piloting of trains back to the off scene station platform or (for southbound trains) piloting them out of the off scene station platform back to beyond the junction by the signal box before they could continue their journey south.  This needs 2 operators alone, one for each loco at each end the train, this cant be done with a 'DCC Consist'.  Then there's another operator controlling all other train movements so that's 3 operators, then one controlling the points and signals via a PC, that's 4, one fiddling with stock in the fiddle yard, that's 5, and finally one having a rest having been on their feet for a couple of hours at a time, that's 6.   They do operate a rota shunting the jobs around to give everyone a rest.. They are all well past retirement after all.   

I saw that the Templecombe operators were having issues when I stopped to look at the layout. I'm new to DCC. Why can't the move you describe be done with a DCC consist?

Thanks,

Simon

On 03/05/2024 at 21:42, Coppercap said:

Park in one of the town's car parks for free (charging likely to be introduced later this year or next year...). Just make sure you park in long-stay area. 5-10 minute walk to the leisure centre. Tesco's car park is rather nearer, with a footpath to the leisure centre... 

I'm going on the bus (Sunday) if it's likely to be muddy!

Thanks for this suggestion. I parked up in the free long stay before the show started, had a nice breakfast in Thornbury and ambled down to the show later. A great day to take in the view looking back towards Wales on the way  too. 

Thanks to the organisers and exhibitors for an enjoyable show. Great to finally see Grantham and Chapel en le Frith Central amongst others.

Simon

Lovely work as ever Nick. At least no one will be able to tell you it hasn't been a Colossal effort getting it finished!

Simon

As ever with these sort of questions, the devil is in the detail. What do you mean by Western Region? If you want to include the GW & GC Joint line through High Wycombe and Princes Risborough then A3s were routine during the period that Leicester, Neasden (and prior to Woodhead electrification  Gorton) had A3s on the Great Central.

See for example:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p709159667/hc9fbfdbb

Oxford and Banbury give scope for LNER classes but others would have to comment on whether more than B1s, D16s etc would have made it there in the '50s.   If you wish to model the WR on the Paddington to the West Country/S Wales section then you are largely limited to Mol_PMB's suggestion of railtours and exchanges.

Simon

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

 

That "16 tonner" looks unusual and very early too.

 

 

Kev.

 

It looks like a Ministry of War Transport/MoT one judging by the lettering.  Independent brakes, no top/London flap, bottom doors and pressed steel side and end doors.  Possibly what became BR diagram 1/102? @hmrspaul will no doubt be able to correct me if I've plumped for the wrong diagram whilst away from my reference books!

Regards,

Simon

46 minutes ago, mikejames said:

I notice 62005 has 4 lamps - royal train?

I think it really only has 3 as the top one is just the electric light fitting (otherwise it's 8 lamps!)

So it has express lamps plus the now required headlight in a lamp in the centre.

Simon

50 minutes ago, Geordie Exile said:

I love the internet.  (Well, some bits of it.)  I've been staring at the OS map trying to figure out how Fenwick pit connected to the Backworth system, the North-South running Blyth & Tyne, and the North Tyne Loop of the NER that served - and continues to serve - North Tyneside.  And I stumbled across this:

I've rotated it 90 degrees and shown it alongside the nearest OS map to the same time that I can find.  I'm trying to work out why the Church Colliery lines are shown as dashed: were they lifted at the time the map was drawn?  They're almost certainly what became the exchange sidings for the Backworth System and show as "Mineral Railway" on the east of OS Map.  I'm similarly confused by the solid lines which appear to have two catch points, then become dashed.  I can't see them on the OS Map, and I'm not aware of anything more than two roads heading North-South at Earsdon Junction. 

 

The OS Map is labelled as "NZ37SW - A, Surveyed / Revised: 1953 to 1964, Published: 1966", so the dates of the two are remarkably close.

 

Any thoughts from folk who understand all this?  Either way, this is quite a leap forward in producing a track plan for me.

 

 

 

I think the signalling diagram is a bit of a composite representing the later situation once the Hartley Mains trackbed was just used as sidings, but still indicating the previous layout when the Mains were in place.

Sassaby image from Flickr showing the situation in 1973, and with some explanation in the text.

Edit to add the four track situation:

 and the Mains being lifted in 1961:

(Both copyright Alan Brooks, North Tyneside Steam Flickr images).

Regards,

Simon

7 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Would anyone care to venture an explanation for those appendages?

Hammond air pre-heater apparently. See note for 189 at bottom of page here:

https://sremg.org.uk/steam/b1(lbsc)-mob.shtml

Simon

48 minutes ago, Market65 said:

Good evening, everyone. Firstly, many thanks, Mick, for posting that excellent photo’ of G5, 67282, Paragon pilot, at Victoria Crossing, c1955.

 

This evening we have four photo’s thanks to Andy Mason, Mervyn, and Mark Finch, all on Flickr.

 

The first one is a view of a class 45 at Broomfleet, thought to be 1986 or 1987. The details are provided by someone in the comments on Flickr, as follows:

1E54 0620 Paddington to Hull. Hull Portion split off and worked forward by the train engine and a 31 worked the Bradford portion. Departed Hull back as 1J01 1420 Hull - Sheffield joined up with a Bradford to Brighton job.

 

 

The second photo’ shows 47100, in Stratford style, as it heads away from Seamer in the mid 1980’s on an engineers train.

 

 

The next photo’ is a view of Layerthorpe station at York, with class J72, Joem, about to depart on one of the short lived passenger trains in 1978.

 

 

Finally, here’s a photo’ of 56094 "Eggborough Power Station" passes a fine array of semaphore signals on the approach to Gilberdyke on 6D54, a Hull-Doncaster Belmont enterprise, on the 2nd March, 2004.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

47100 is named Merlin in that photo. Thus it's Stratford style with a touch of Tinsley as the loco was a Tinsley Speedlink/Railfreight Distribution loco when photographed. The name places it between 20 September 1989 and withdrawal in July 1991. 

Simon

14 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I didn't think any of the NCB Yorkshire areas had any working steam locomotives that late. In my Industrial Locomotives 1976, HE 3168/1944 is shown OOU at Allerton Bywater Colliery.

 

"Zone of high vehicular activity" indeed.

I think we've had views of No.7 in this thread before. It was certainly well photographed on its trips between Wheldale and the washer at Fryston.

For instance this Steve Banks image on Flickr:

Simon

49 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Sometimes you sleep on things and ... not so much 'two steps forward ...' as maybe trying to avoid ploughing on regardless. Nothing drastic, but ...

 

You might not have picked up on this but the partially laid fan of points for Upperby goods sidings was bothering me so ...

 

up they came! To be replaced by this rather more simpler arrangement.

 

Now installed, with sidings adjusted and relaid to match.

One factor is that these points are right under the operator's nose so are not motored. Prototypically, they would have been set out thus so that the shunting staff are on the outside of the sidings and not stepping over rails to change points. The alternative of having three curved points on the furthest siding wasn't really working geometrically.

It does however alter which siding becomes the longest ...

 

Sidings now being extended in the Carlisle direction. Your eye will no doubt be drawn to the suspicious card circle, however!

Yes, second 'thunks' has resulted in the decision to include the outside, 60ft turntable (as per prototype). It fits, just ... but only by curtailing one of the goods sidings! So, Upperby yard is now 4-and-a-half sidings rather than 5.

Thinking here is that, without this turntable, everything that needs turning has to use the roundhouse turntable ... perhaps not the wisest of ideas?

 

With this decision, the track plan for the depot is finalised. Let's take a tour:

 

'Country' end. Locos will (normally) enter the depot via the right hand exit off the 3-way point. They then take the left hand route over the following Y point to take them on to the ash disposal road, followed by the coaler. This will be the normal sequence of moves round the shed - but it can be bypassed by taking the RIGHT hand route through the Y point.

To the right, just plonked for now, is the pointwork that leads to the depot EXIT (in normal circumstances. Between that and the wall are a series of stabling roads and two roads of the carriage shed.

 

Work is proceeding in laying the roundhouse roads. 16 down; 8 to go. As well as it the furthest away roads not being full length, note how three roads in the 5 o'clock corner (as viewed) are also slightly shorter, so as to allow the outside roads a little more room to breath. Won't be readily apparent at normal viewing angles. In total, and not including the entrance / exit roads, 7 of the stabling roads are still full length and will thus take a Pacific.

 

And the remainder of the yard looks like this. Having had ashes disposed and been coaled, all locos (apart from Pacifics) can turn and then run back (to the right) using the crossover onto the through line. Otherwise, locos continue on towards the siding and headshunt area that was curiously known as the 'Burma Road'.

Above the 60ft turntable is the area where many pictures of my beloved Duchess Pacifics were taken, with the roundhouse in the background. Very keen to replicate that!

 

Compromise, as ever, is the watchword; however, I do believe that this finalised layout does capture the main features of the old 12A and provides capacity for up to 40 locos. The most notable omission (perhaps?) is the old coal hole - felt it would have just have been too cramped to fit it in.

 

Onwards and upwards 🤓

It's all really coming on.

Which Duchesses will you be sawing in half to pose on the rear shortened tracks Graham?

Simon