65179

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now there's interesting. Was it, I wonder, the change of job role and title from "Locomotive Superintendent" to "Chief Mechanical Engineer" that led to the decline in status, or at lease enthusiast awareness, of the name of the person occupying the role previously called "Carriage & Wagon Superintendent"? I only really know about the LMS in this context, where the two principal constituents had a long history of separation of Locomotive and Carriage & Wagon Departments, with separate Board committees. Robert W. Reid was the last C&W Superintendent of the Midland and first of the LMS (though I'm not sure what the LMS called the role); his work in streamlining the production methods at Litchurch Lane and Wolverton is well-known, even if the carriages produced under his superintendency are generally called "Period 1" rather than "Reid" stock, thanks to Jenkinson & Essery. But what they called "Period 3" is very widely referred to as "Stanier" - the names of Reid's successors being lost to enthusiast consciousness.

 

So tell me more about Mr Newton and his revolution (in LNER terms) in carriage design!  

Here he is: 

(Chief) General Manager of the LNER 1939-1947.   A bit more info here: https://m.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/photos/a.210517012308528/4022782961081895/?type=3

Another one with work experience less parochial than our interests tend to be.

Simon

Sticking with GC matters, no-one seems to have mentioned that the GC matchboard RC is available via ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266349991954

Simon

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Tony,

 

I'm delighted when people are 'picky'; it keeps me on my toes! Folk who make things themselves have a right to be picky (like you). Where I take issue is with those who 'pick', but never pick up a soldering iron, knife, file, saw or any other essential modelling tool themselves!

 

I can't see my altering that 'wide-framed' GC tender behind the finished O4/7. It did set me thinking, however. I wonder how many locos have run or are running on Bytham towing GC 'standard' tenders? Quite a few, of which the following is just a selection (there are plenty more).

 

 

When Bachmann's O4 first came out, I detailed, renumbered and weathered one. Then sold it. Why?

 

 

Because I acquired an O4 from the estate of the late John Brown of Spalding MRC. This Little Engines example was originally in LNER livery, and numbered as an O4/1, but wasn't fitted with a vacuum brake. It also had the original GC boiler fittings. So, I added the vacuum ejector pipe (a fiddle behind the handrail this side), the vacuum standpipe on the front platform, replaced the boiler fittings, repainted it, renumbered it and weathered it. 

 

 

It's seen here alongside a DJH A2 (built by me, painted by Ian Rathbone). 

 

This pair is relatively 'modern'. Unlike..............

 

 

This pair with a combined age of almost a century! My old K's O4/3 (though nothing of K's mechanics) alongside my old Wills A2. 

 

 

 

Tony Geary's Little Engines O4 is wonderfully-natural, but this one (carrying the number 63707) should really be a fitted O4/1. One day, I'll get around to renumbering it.

 

 

Rob Kinsey built a K's O4/1 (which I weathered).

 

 

And turned a K's ROD into an O4/6 (with side-window cab). I also weathered this one.

 

 

I resurrected a very old K's ROD, made a chassis for it, painted and weathered it.

 

 

I described how I made an O4/8 some little time ago, using K's parts and a Bachmann B1 body with Graeme King's boiler fittings.

 

 

Making a better job of the Class than I did many years ago by part scratch-building an example. It has a K's tender.

 

 

A K's tender is also behind my ancient scratch-built O1. However,

 

 

A much better model can be made from a Little Engines kit. 

 

When Bachmann's J11/1 came out............

 

 

 

I detailed, renumbered and weathered one. Then sold it.................

 

 

 

 

Because I bought a Little Engines one off John Houlden (ex-Gamston). I rebuilt it mechanically.

 

 

And did the same for this Little Engines J11/3; again John Houlden's work (ex-Gamston). 

 

 

Rob Kinsey also built a Little Engines J11/3, which I weathered. 

 

When Bachmann introduced its D11.........

 

 

I detailed, renumbered, renamed and weathered one. 

 

Which..............

 

 

Now runs on Retford after friend Ray Chessum re-gauged it to EM. 

 

 

I still have a D11 on Bytham (though it's not really appropriate). It's made from an ancient BEC kit, and its only saving grace is Geoff Haynes' splendid painting. 

 

 

A very old McGowan D9 (painted by Geoff Haynes) runs on the MR/M&GNR in this pre-War scene, passing your lovely signals.

 

 

And one of the J11s occasionally gets a go on the 'top bit'. 

 

 

This scratch-built B9 survived a car crash and was rebuilt by Ian Smith

 

.

Someone brought along this scratch-built B8.

 

And, finally..........

 

 

Yet to be tested on LB, this is the progress so far on the O4/7.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Is that cab a bit too far back Tony, or is it just the angle? In that view it looks like you'll struggle to get the rear handrails in.

There's a colour feature on the O4s in the latest BackTrack magazine. Interestingly it includes a nice shot of 63920, the O4/6 you've modelled, still pulling the same sort of Robinson tender as it would have as an O5.

An ex-works O4/8 on the cover too:

https://pocketmags.com/backtrack-magazine?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAg9urBhB_EiwAgw88mdbj2ZAyyKt6Hod0fQKAMrKUblia-hFelw8OTSIjEa1wATqNOOipnBoCGZ4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It's not too often you see an O4 clean enough to see that the buffer bodies on a Gorton-shopped O4 are black!

Regards,

Simon

On 09/12/2023 at 13:35, jwealleans said:

We've been here before, Tony, with your GE Restaurant Car.   Catering vehicles were repainted as they were estimated to have a medium term future at least.   The GE ones were in traffic long enough to be painted maroon.   However if this particular type was already being withdrawn at Nationalisation then even an all over repaint seems unlikely as Graeme suggests.  

 

I've had a quick flick through the Seabrook photos and all the former GC catering cars he photographed had been converted to kitchen cars as has already been said.   A few are in a plain all over colour (presumably brown), one or two are visibly teak (one at Hornsey in 1955) but most have been given blood and custard and at least one is in maroon.

Here's another variation on GC matchboard restaurant/kitchen cars immediately post-nationalisation:

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aca504--rkk-br-e53357----xgc-at-doncaster-ca1950-f3r-gas-tanks-underneath-truss-rod-underframe.html

Teak (?) but with BR lettering and numbering. No idea what diagram this one is. Does anyone know?

A good few years ago there were a set of immediately post-nationalisation coaching stock photos for sale on ebay, @jwealleans may well remember. They were mostly GE subjects, but with one or two GC coaches in among. One featured one of the 5G4 kitchen conversions E5127 in teak, lettered Restaurant Car with LNER number and just the E prefix in BR style.

Simon

38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Simon,

 

Of course, Longworth! 

 

Looking at that relevant mighty tome, I see that GCR 5M3 is listed as a Barnum, and this carriage doesn't have the end-profile of any Barnum I've previously built (they're almost flat-sided). 

 

 

Though the window arrangement is identical, this carriage has a tumblehome. In fact, I can't find it in the book other than listed as a Barnum. Unless some Barnums had a tumblehome. Either that, or Longworth has listed it incorrectly as one.

 

Amazingly (in less than an hour!), it's now complete and ready for painting (probably in plain brown). I substituted complete brass buffers (drilling the resin shanks caused them to shatter), and attached my own couplings.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Unfortunately Longworth has got a bit mixed up with his coach naming at points and so most (all?) the matchboard stock is titled Barnum.  This couldn't be a Barnum coach as there were no catering Barnums, only the TOs and BTOs.

Simon

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

On to more 'creative' things rather than mucking about with render-drive stuff...............

 

 

 

Alan Rose has sent me the latest 3D-printed carriage created by his son-in-law.

 

It's a 1911/'12-built GC 'matchboard' dining car.

 

Other than fitting wheels (not supplied) and altering the bogies' pivot arrangement, this is how it comes; really, a 'kit' made up of five individual pieces! 

 

I've just got to add some wire trussing, couplings and the buffers (not supplied).

 

Now, a request please. I've got some Jenkinson/Campling drawings which show the standard GC 'matchboard' corridor stock, but nothing on this catering car. Can anyone help, please with any sources of reference?

 

How long did they last? Into BR days?

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

 

 

Someone else may be able to cross-check (e.g. with the Clive Carter BackTrack articles on LNER restaurant and  kitchen cars), but looking at Longworth it looks like a GC 60ft RC to GC diagram 5M3. E577 is recorded as making it to 12/49. Less long-lived than the 5M1 and 5M2(5G4) kitchen cars that would be suitable for Little Bytham.

Regards,

Simon

12 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Note to self: don't include a road bridge over the railway anywhere on new layout.

Or an underbridge.  Someone would be happy to supply a bus for a potential bridge bash scene, I'm sure 😉

Simon

54 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

That was in 2016.

 

30368

Oops. Was it that long ago?  Mind you it still wouldn't be finished now if it was built to my timescales!

I'll go for a Scottish exile then, 45665.

Simon 

Jutland?

Simon

On 05/12/2023 at 00:35, t-b-g said:

 

I still have the photos and can put them on again if people would like to see them.

 

The GCR tenders certainly are a nightmare of very non standard "Standard" types.

 

A further variation concerns the height of the timber platform at the front of the tender, which varied depending on the height of the footplate on the loco it was to be attached to and the short wider portion of the footplate at the front. The small side sheets at the front varied too. Some had the beading on top (supporting the top of the handrail) straight and others had it curved out.

Tony, if you are happy to share them again then I'm sure they would be appreciated.

Is there any pattern to which tenders had straight beading and which had curved on the sidesheet extensions? 

Simon

4000 gallon self-trimming type

The self-trimming tender differs from the non-self trimming type by:

-  having a hopper shaped coal space with correspondingly very different coalhole.

-  being consistently 8ft 9in over      platform  with a wider tank than the earlier tenders (earlier tenders were 8ft 3in over platform except for the wider sections on the large-boilered locos, and earlier tenders were 7ft 8 outside the tank compared with 8ft 1 and a bit for the self-trimming type)

- having less overhang in the flare as a result (as they were the same width over coalguards as the earlier tenders).

- having a straight-topped front coalplate with upturned ends as opposed to the gentle arc of the earlier tenders.

- having a prominent central toolbox on top of the tender front.

It is the latter 2 features that are most consistently obvious in photos.

Compare non-self trimming:

(Historical Railway Images picture of 1165 Valour on Flickr)

with self-trimming:

(Peter Brabham image on Flickr)

(Arriving Somewhere Flickr image)

Note also the longer coalguards like the non-self trimming type fitted to the later wide-boilered locos.

Yeadon's Register states that these tenders were only ever fitted to classes D11/1, D11/2, B3 and B7. The D11/2 tenders lacked water pick up apparatus, although the GA for them shows all the boxes for it to be fitted present.

Sadly the photographs of Butler Henderson's self-trimming tender here:

uploaded by @t-b-g were lost.

Simon

I've put this in this area because the following is an aid to modelling rather than a type history, and is an aide memoire for me whilst building GC locos in 2mm scale.

The Standard GC tender is another of those railway items where standard is a complete misnomer.  Whilst the 3 basic sorts of Robinson tenders (I'm deliberately excluding the 40  3080 gallon tender fitted to the later J10s as these share many Parker/Pollitt features) do share a number of common features, there's plenty of variety in the 3 types:

i) 3250 gallon
ii) 4000 gallon
iii) 4000 gallon self trimming

There's even more if we were to consider the later life of the ROD tenders and the modified tenders behind the D49s.

It's easiest to start with what a Robinson tender isn't. They were derived from the earlier Pollitt and Parker tenders, but are easily distinguishable chiefly by looking at the tender valance and the tender footsteps.

Pollitt and Parker (and Robinson 3080 gallon) tenders:

Rear of valance curves down to meet the bufferbeam and stepplates are not joggled inwards. Rear steps will be absent altogether in early condition.

Robinson 3250 and 4000 gallon tender:

Valance is a consistent depth with no rear curve and bottom front and rear stepplates are joggled inwards.

So before anyone convinces you a J10 0-6-0 is trailing a Robinson 4000 gallon tender, just check the rear of the tender valance!

i) 3250 gallon tenders

The 3250 gallon type was introduced on the B1, B5, C4, J11, D9 and Q4 (using LNER nomenclature for ease).

(H C Casserley image Charlie Verrall on Flickr)

The first of the tenders (for D9 and J11) had 2 coalrails and no water pickup apparatus (circular rear filler?) with later 3250 gallon tenders having four coalrails and water pick up apparatus (D filler and 'ship's wheel' operating handwheel).

As built it does not look like these tenders had a rear division plate/coalplate.

For both 3250 and 4000 gallon tenders, the RCTS volumes suggest that plating of the coalrails started rapidly: plating done pre-Grouping being on the outside of the coalrails; and post-Grouping inside of them. A coalrail tender with external plating will lack the beading around the top edge of the coalguard seen on those built with solid coalguards from new. See for example, the lack of beading on 63598's 4000 gallon tender here:
https://railphotoprints.uk/p494432063/h388aa177

ii) 4000 gallon tenders

The 4000 gallon tender, with a deeper tank than the 3250 gallon tender but the same coal capacity was introduced in 1904. These were at first produced without a rear division plate and with 4 coalrails. Sheet steel coal guards with outside beading were provided for new tenders from approx.1905.

Whilst there are many variations within the non-self trimming (standard or horseshoe) tenders, the 3 major variants are:

1)  the initial batches with short coalguards and a slight taper to the tender flare at the front like the earlier Pollitt tenders, no or a low division plate, and D filler with or without scoop control gear and associated boxes;

(Charlie Verrall Flickr image)

2) the ROD tender, retaining the short coalguards and the tapered flare, but with full height division plate, with 2 supporting stanchions, further back on the tank, and with circular tank filler;
 

(Robert Gadson Flickr image)

and finally

3) the type fitted to some of the later large boilered locos with long coalguards, no taper, and high division plate in the same place as that on the initial batches tenders.
 

(Flickr image G R Griggs image uploaded by Colin Alexander)

The change to long coalguards occurred on GC locos prior to the ROD tenders being produced such that B8, B3, B6, B7 and O5 locos all received these tenders from new (excluding those B7s equipped with the self trimming type from new), and some D11s received them when giving up their self-trimming tenders to B3s.

The early tenders and ROD batch looked like this:

The later long coalguard variety looked like this:


Note also the variation in brake standard position. The earlier tenders seem to have included examples with the brake standard in either position.

The later long coalguard tenders and the earlier tenders fitted to wide boilered locos (B2 and D10) featured a widened running plate in front of the sidesheets:

((Flickr image uploaded by Richard)
Seen also on this later pattern tender on an ex-O5:
 

(Robert Gadson Flickr image)
Other differences to watch out for are:

the presence or absence of sandboxes either side of the coal hole;

tenders with D filler, but no scoop control gear boxes (scoop gear removed):

(Flickr image posted by Tony Bonsall)

As noted by Tony below, most of the 4000 gallon tenders had the beading on top of the small side sheet extensions curving outwards so that the vertical handrail was not in line with sidesheets.

Some however had straight beading and inline handrails.

The footplate level (mounted on top of the running plate) also varied in height according to the loco to which it was attached.

The axlebox spring arrangement common to all varieties of a longer spring on the middle axlebox:

(Flickr Charlie Verrall image)
Note how the middle spring hangers overlap the cutout more than those on either side.

There are umpteen axlebox and spring hanger differences too.

Please feel free to point out any errors.

Self-trimming tenders to follow...

Simon

2 hours ago, john new said:

Interesting to note the LNER B16/1 has what looks like a Westinghouse brake pump thingy but the BR one in the lower photo hasn't. I have a B16 kit to build so just some of the details I am going to have to examine closely.

Westinghouse brake removed by approx July 1936 on B16s.

Simon

2 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

So light sabers pre-date Star Wars…

No because Star Wars happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away!

51 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Interesting to see Liverpool Riverside. I knew ity existed but this is the first photo IO have ever seen of it.

Jonathan

More photos and info here:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_riverside/

Although you have to go here:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_waterloo_goods/index4.shtml

for one of the classic hole in the wall shots.

Simon

4 minutes ago, micklner said:

Good find well done. I see i suggested the thread as well !!

 

I have just ploughed through 50 pages of the normal Mike Edge thread, not many photos of anything theron !! A great shame.

 

cheers

The build pre-dates Mike choosing to start his own workbench thread. Yes, a real shame so many images are missing on Mike's threads and elsewhere.

When comparing the Barnfield and PDK B16s, one of the major differences is how the smokebox is treated. The PDK one produces a smokebox of noticeably larger diameter than the boiler. To me that always niggles as, if the smokebox on the real thing is of a larger diameter at all, it is only the width of the real boiler bands larger.

Simon

13 hours ago, micklner said:

Any idea where the Mike Edge B16/2 build is . I remember him doing a better etch for the valve gear , no idea for which kit.

Nothing coming up on searches other than ones saying 1000 plus hits . Mikes thread has over 80 pages as well.

As suggested, no photos, but it's here:

Built using a PDK kit with his own improved parts for sidebars etc.

Some additional comments on it on Wright Writes at the bottom of this page:

The loco was built for Tom F, but is now Tony Wright's. See photo on this page:

Regards,

Simon

On 26/11/2023 at 08:27, Ray M said:

i cant recall 101 being like this.

Taken from pinterest

It certainly carried this livery from early 1990 (and possibly late 1989) until withdrawal in 1993, and on into preservation.

March 1990 on Martin Loader's site here: 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/31101_Winwick_1990.htm

Simon

I think Bob's generic one is in fact a J26/7 chassis. Certainly he did one for some shotdown 4mm J26/7 etches (organised by Mick?) years ago.

It might be worth seeing if anyone has any of those body etches stashed away.

Regards,

Simon

It's a bit of a rabbit hole to disappear down, but if you are really short of space, there are always the push-pull services such as used on, for example,  the Epping-Ongar service:

Robertcwp image on Flickr

Regards,

Simon

I must admit I thought the usual advice with the outside cylinder NER types was to have the bogie pivot move in a slot with a slight arc, and to pivot it toward the rear of the bogie so that there is less sideways movement of the rear axle between the cylinders.

Simon

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

Pilmoor on the ECML north of York.  One is from 1967, the othewrs from 1983 and 1987.

 

 

Pilmoor A4 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley special A4 loco socy Kings X to Newcastle July 67 J0968

 

 

Pilmoor Class 37 37250 up empty coal Feb 83 C5966

 

 

Pilmoor Class 43 43084 down ex pass Feb 83 C5967

 

 

Pilmoor Class 43 up ex pass BR Arrow on yellow front Feb 83 C5968  The arrow is on the coupling cover plate.

 

 

Pilmoor Class 31 up ecs and Class 43 power car Sept 87 J9265

 

David

J9265 is what you get if you just run all the stock you bought in the Black Friday sales!

Simon

13 minutes ago, john new said:

I always think of the B17s as East Anglian engines. Keep forgetting they strayed this far up north and also did regular runs to/from Sheffield.

Not just Sheffield, also Manchester and occasional forays to Liverpool too in this period.

Simon

3 minutes ago, micklner said:

Some additional photos re the Fire Iron support. The bracket is clearly above the top of the Tender in all the photos. Obvious as not a lot of use if its lower and buried under the Coal. I only photo I have found of a slotted plate is also of a Q7 Tender. I have found photos where the  front plate is missing completly in that corner of the Tender.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All photos posted for research only use.

Some variation then. My first image is an early BR B16.

Simon

Slot was probably the wrong word for me to choose. Here's the shallow cutout in the bulkhead:

There's still a gap in the beading on the preserved Q7 tender where this should be, but no cutout any longer.

Something to add to your constructive criticism of the tender perhaps.

Simon