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I was planning on getting some of the Heljan models until I saw the mess they’ve made if the shape! 
 

These really do look the part and I hope that they follow it up with some later 45/1s with headlights at some point soon. 

Looking at the new Bachmann 45s they seem to have captured the look of the Peaks in a way Heljan clearly cannot.

Although lacking some of the extra details of the Heljan, and possibly dcc functionality, if you want a Peak that looks like a Peak it’s clearly the better option. After all you can always add a few extra pipes to the Bachmann if you want to, but you can’t change the deformed shape of the Heljan! 

My only hope with Hornby is anything that they do produce they don’t mess it up!! 
 

I don’t have much hope of that though with their past record.

Anything to be newly tooled I hope is done by other manufacturers, but from their current offerings it would be nice to have some BR Blue 31/4s, a BR Blue 08 with black buffer beam, a Large Logo 56 and a correct InterCity Executive HST! 

On 06/11/2018 at 13:59, 37501 said:

I have received a reply from Bachmann which had totally fobbed me off. They claim that customer feedback on the red TPO vans has prompted them to use a different shade of red and very dull stripes etc. Also that the graphics of the stowage vans have been on their website for a long time and no one said that the colour was wrong. Looking at the website, the graphics look okay. Certainly not the shambles that I have here. I would have told them if the graphics had looked like this.

 

Can anyone recommend someone that can do the-sprays please?

 

John

I was looking at the two latest TPO releases the other day and interestingly they appear to have changed the colour of the stripes again! 
 

Looked a lot more yellow than the last releases. 
 

I wonder what version the upcoming BG and GUV will get?! 
 

Really looking forward to these coming out and the first sample looks amazing!

I might have to add the large logo one to the two Railfreight liveried ones on order!

I really hope you produce all the other versions at some point too, my Bachmann fleet is waiting to be replaced! 
 

Keep up the excellent work guys. 
 

ps. A 47 would be great too! ;-)

Hi Charlie, just wanted to say that having bought 5 of the excellent Sprinter liveried Class 156s and looking forward to the, no doubt equally impressive, Provincial Class 142s was there any plans to do the Class 144 in as delivered Metro livery at any point?

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

As ever the market will decide.  Any manufacturer that consistently produces models that don't sell won't remain as a manufacturer very long.  Heljan has been producing locomotives for the UK market for about 20 years and is still going so clearly enough people are satisfied by their products to make producing them a viable enterprise.

 

The truth is that not everybody looks at every model the same way.  In my case something has to really jump out and smack me in the face before I take notice although having said that I am peculiarly allergic to windscreen frame rivets the scale size of half a cricket ball.  So the peaked cap on the Western, the (apparently) wrong roof shape on the early 33s and even the "tubby duff" didn't bother me at all. 

 

I look at the new 25 (now the cricket balls have gone from the windscreen frame) and I think it looks like a 25 to me.  I'd have one.  Ditto the 45, looks ok to me.  However the very first picture I saw of the 86 and, before I'd read a single word about it, I thought that pan looks like it is sitting too high.  I even checked pictures of the prototype and was surprised to see it did sit higher than I'd remembered but not as high as on the model.  My rule of thumb therefore is that if I even think it doesn't look right then it must be bad because most of the things discussed to death as faults don't bother me at all.

 

Also, I'm sure manufacturers have good reasons for publishing images of EPs but there is a point in the development life cycle where changing fundamental characteristics such as the body contours is not a viable proposition and those who are bothered by such things then complain that their observations on any deficiencies are being ignored. 

 

Finally a pet gripe.  "There is no excuse for getting it wrong".  Yes there is.  It's very difficult and expensive to accurately capture complex shapes and details and scale them down where fractions of a millimetre can alter the perception of what it looks like.  Aside from complaints about model fidelity, the other biggest complaint is about cost.  Well shock news just in:  if you want manufacturers to expend more time, effort and money on honing things like body contour subtleties then the selling price will go up.  You pays your money and takes your choice, or if you like, the market will decide.  Which is where I came in.

In terms of releasing EPs and it not being viable to change at that point, I’m sure you’re probably correct and therefore the observations about deficiencies do go ignored. 
 

However my point is that why are they are even allowing them to go out like that in the first place? Accurascale seems to be the only manufacturer getting that process right and not releasing anything until they themselves are happy with it.

And sorry but I disagree on your last point - there is no excuse for getting it wrong. Not producing something that is accurate to save cost is making a choice to do so. 
 

And are saying for Heljan to get it right they’d have to charge even more? Heljan are one of the most expensive in terms of rrp as it is and also seem to be the worst when it comes to these types of errors.

If another company can strive to get it right, offering a high specification and accurate model around 25% cheaper than Heljan then that says to me that Heljan are either very inefficient or making a huge markup, both of which I realise they’re clearly entitled to do as it’s their business but still leaves me intrigued as to why. 

And can you explain to me how it saves cost to release a model that was clearly wrong and then to retool it several years later to correct those errors? Surely it would save money to spend a small amount of extra time getting it right the first time? They clearly thought it needed doing as otherwise why bother if enough people were buying the dodgy shaped ones?! 

At the end of day everyone will have a entirely different view on what they view as acceptable and whether or not they will purchase. And Heljan will make there own mind up as to whether or not their business case is working.

36 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Businesses that want to stay in business are trying to make the most profitable product, which is not necessarily the 'best' in terms of detail or fidelity to prototype. Mind you working out where that 'sweet spot' is in terms of 'quality' versus profitability must be no fun at all, glad it's not my money. 

 

yeah sorry, the  rather obscure 'Electric Nose' reference was harking back to the D&E modelers Yahoo group 15 years ago ish where a guy with that username wanted the Heljan design department sacked due to the 'peaked cap' look of the Western.

 

Oh and agree that the Accurascale products are potentially (at this point) much better value than the Heljan in many respects.

Again I do agree with you! And everyones view on quality will be different, however getting the fundamental shapes right at the beginning should be a given I think. 

I’m really not a rivet counter and couldn’t tell you anything about whether the boiler was right or the right number of rivets are around the exhaust port, but for me at least if the dome is the wrong shape, the windscreens have the wrong angle or the cab door is clearly too short - and these can be found online by an amateur such as myself, then these things in my view are almost inexcusable.

Aghh I see ! No that’s not me! Lol.

I’m not really calling for them to be sacked but surely someone somewhere must see there is an issue for it to be happening so many times?

And getting things right shouldn’t really be costing them anymore than getting it wrong! If they actually had a more robust process in place to start with they may get it right first time and not have to revisit things a second time, with all the associated additional costs I expect were incurred, as they have done with at least the 33 and the 86. 

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

 

1 - We don't know (and we're not going to find out) what Heljan's or Accurascale's cost bases or business models are.

 

2 - Well Heljan keep releasing these models and they're still in business, and still producing new models, so that suggests they have a reasonably successful business model.

 

3 - Any design team can only work with the information he/she/they are given, and doubtless are working to a timescale and a budget; as for replacing them, you are 'Electric Nose' and I claim my 5 pounds lol.

 

1) True - I wasn’t expecting that! But clearly the differences are stark when you compare cost vs quality! 
 

2) Agree - I didn’t suggest otherwise, clearly there are enough people who don’t care if it’s fully accurate and they’re quite within their rights to purchase them! If I’m in the minority who expects them to at least get the major features looking right then so be it.

But having only got back into model railways during lockdown I was considering both 25s and 45s and was definitely up for lots of 47s! But if they don’t care enough to get them right I’ll stick with the Bachmann ones I have for now. That’s not throwing teddies out, that’s just weighing up the value or otherwise of what I purchase - in much the same way Heljan obviously weigh up whether it’s worth putting the effort in to get it right vs any potential loss of sales because they haven’t. 
 

3) To an extent yes, but I’d have thought any self respecting business would want to produce the best product they can. Whether that’s the design team at fault or wider departments within Heljan, but something clearly doesn’t work for these issues to keep recurring or they simply don’t care?! Quite within their rights to not care and as long as enough people buying them don’t care either they’ll still make money!
 

And sorry but I don’t even know what the last bit means? 
 

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

 

Something that doesn't yet exist pushes the bounds of accuracy.  The competition (only they're not actually in direct competition here) should sack its Design Team.

 

Comedy Gold.

To be fair though it doesn’t matter whether they’ve produced them yet or not - the fact is that Heljan CADS quite often appear wrong so comparing like for like with Accurascale they’re pretty shoddy in comparison.

You just don’t get the same on Accurascale threads. And whilst they’ve not released a loco yet, the wagons they’ve produced have been very well received so I believe that quality will run through into the locos. You only have to read the threads to see these guys really care about what they put out. 

So there are issues with Heljans design team and their research whether you want to agree with that or not, otherwise the catalogue of errors wouldn’t keep occurring. 

Nearly every thread I read about a Heljan product includes references about errors in the the look of the models - the 25, the 45, the O gauge 47, the first 86, the first 33, the list goes on. 

All I’m saying is if they want to charge the big bucks then the quality should be there to justify it. 
 

I totally accept the various arguments over costs and I’m in no way suggesting Heljan should charge less because at the end of the day it’s their business. 
 

However, the point I made earlier was why does it cost Heljan so much more to produce what is in effect an inferior product compared to Accurascale?
 

Heljan release model after model that has significant visual errors (I’m talking noticeable differences in shape that can be spotted by the less knowledgeable like my myself!) and despite these being pointed out by those more knowledgeable than myself they plough on regardless and are still present in the production models.

In contrast Accurascale, I realise that they’ve not released a locomotive yet, have pushed the boundaries of accuracy and you can see that in the various threads - there’s no real gripes around shape or detail.

So if Accurascale can offer this accuracy for a more reasonable price why can’t Heljan?
 

If, as has been said, the bulk of the cost is staff, which I don’t disagree with, I’d say Heljan could do with replacing their CAD team with some who are little more competent at producing an accurate product to start with. 
 

It’s the difference in price vs quality of product produced that makes me annoyed rather than the actual cost of models going up.

Accurascale, lower price accurate model

vs

Heljan, high price accuracy issues

If I could be confident in Heljan producing the goods for once I’d happily pre order 11 of the 15 or so announced so far - unfortunately I don’t believe they will and my annoyance is not so much in the price but the fact that they may effectively scupper the chances of a better Class 47 by releasing theirs.

Although at risk of repeating myself, I do hope with Heljan going so high on the price, it does leave a window of opportunity for a decent model priced around the £170 mark (as the Accurascale 37 is).

For me it is definitely the quality - I don’t mind paying the higher price if the quality is there to back it up and unfortunately Heljan’s track record doesn’t back it up! 

Hi Fran

Personally I think you  have it about right, announcing once some substantial progress has been made. 
 

Bachmann - far too long from announcement to delivery although generally get an ok (if a little basic) model at the end of it

Hornby - better lead times but let themselves down with the decoration or on occasions wrong tool! 

Heljan - again better lead times and they do seemingly ask for comment, but usually just ignore it and proceed anyway with obvious mistakes. What worries me more is the fact that they don’t spot these issues themselves beforehand (ie 25/45)

So of all the methods yours seems to be working, announcing when you have something to show for it, having a team that actually can put out an accurate model to start with and when you do it is decorated correctly. I feel that if you announce a model it will be worth having! 

So with regards to duplication I feel that provided you keep going as you have been, great communication, great models and also a reasonable pricing structure you’ll be my manufacturer of choice as I have confidence in you delivering.

So if you’ve built up a loyal following then whilst duplication is a risk, you’ll be better placed because of that confidence in your product.

I’d actually like you to start duplicating! I’m danger of straying into wish list territories here but Accurascale 47 anyone?!

Keep up the good work, it’s appreciated. 

The bit I struggle with is that Accurascale are producing an all singing 37 for £169.99 or £259.99 with sound! 
 

So for £30 more you’ll be able to get a sound fitted 37 vs a DCC ready 47! 
 

I’d actually say with those differences that the door is wide open for Accurascale to produce a 47 if they so wished and it would do very well - I’d also have more confidence in it being accurate compared to the Heljan one with their track record. 

3 minutes ago, cambo74 said:

Would have been interested if the DRS 57 was in the current fade away livery but then I guess even that is becoming obsolete now as they are hiring out their 57s ..... such a shame as another open goal missed .... makes you wonder if this livery is hard to replicate as no-one aside from Accurascale on their forthcoming 37/6 has attempted it ......

With regards to the rest - still no new 90s ..... makes me happy - more for me to respray over the winter months .......

How about Dapol 68, isn’t that the fade away livery?

Out of my era so not really studied their success of replicating it though! 

Little diamond... may be way off the mark but hoping its the HAA! (Coal sector symbol having diamonds being my logic, or not - we’ll see I guess!) 

I thought the wallet might have taken a hammering with some of the hype around this announcement... as it happened it got off very lightly with only a slim chance of wanting the Motorail van!!

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I don’t think the 37/47 will sell nearly as well, with Heljan 47 and accura 37 on the way - those “ limited edition “ models have hung around forever .

 

The only thing that’s been enhanced with these ( rather old tooling ) is the constantly spiralling price.

 

i used to be a massive fan, and my fleet is mainly Bachmann , but I think they’ve been left napping generally other than the DMUs 

I agree with you on the 37 - I think the Accurascale model is going to be massive but not so sure on the Heljan 47.

Reading through some of the Heljan threads for 25/45 and the glaringly obvious errors leaves me a little bit underwhelmed with the prospect of a fully accurate 47. How many attempts at the 86?! 

I’m no rivet counter but when they can’t even get basic things right it doesn’t fill me with confidence and to be honest I think the Bachmann 47 is alright, could do with a lighting upgrade and releasing a few more liveries though! 

If only Accurascale could be persuaded to produce a 47?! 

1 hour ago, robf said:

I have to say I tend to agree with Ben on this one.  The only Bachmann model I've bought in the last year or so was the albeit excellent Class 158.  It's interesting how Hornby were ridiculed, lambasted, use whatever word / phrase you want for delays in bringing out models, yet there's not a great deal of criticism of Bachmann (Can't do wrong) for being in exactly the same position.  I've been waiting for the GWR 150 and WCRC coaches (still no sign of a release date for these, even though they are a re-livery of older models) for rather a long time.

 

Certainly seems to be a bit of a bias towards Bachmann on here.

 

That said hopefully there will something interesting in the announcement on Tuesday, the new announce release within 3 months is certainly an improvement.

I have to admit I’m more swayed to supporting Bachmann than Hornby. Whilst the delays from

Bachmann can be frustrating you can generally expect a much better and accurate product, compared to Hornby, from them in the end. 

Maybe Hornby do manage to produce something good but it seems everything I’d like to buy they either don’t produce (BR Blue 31/4s for example) or they constantly c**k something up with the wrong colour, logo in wrong position or even the wrong tooling! I’ve a long list of stuff I’d like to buy from Hornby but won’t because of stupid avoidable errors. 

I've got to the point where I’m actively selling anything Hornby that I can do without - unfortunately the HST is a necessity! - but it would be wonderful if Accurascale were to bring out the 31, 56, 60, HST, oh and the 47! (Having seen the discussions on Heljan products and the glaring inaccuracies I don’t hold out much hope for their 47, which is a real shame). 

No need for anything coal related other than the excellent wagons you’ve  produced or about to produce! Haa Haa! ;-)

How is the Dapol 73 regarded? I’ve only recently reignited my interest by have it in the back of my head that it wasn’t great for some reason?! 
 

Would this be the springboard to Accurascale producing a superior 73 in the hopefully not to distant future?

37 minutes ago, DBC90024 said:

Of course, Jerry, i think maybe the Swallow fair enough but the RfD one, really??? that should have been EWS 

 

As for the 85, that should have been the 86 or 87 really ... and then Bachmann would have opened up a whole different market that ultimately Heljan will do so when their new tooled 86 will do so - and Hornby have done similarly with their new generation 87.

I would agree on INTERCITY but I think the RfD one was probably a good call when you think how many carried the livery - equal to, if not more than IC. 
 

It’s the Powerhaul version I find odd when so few carried it and that probably should have been EWS!

2 hours ago, SouthernMafia said:

 

This is a bit cheeky, great to look at and if you get a good one then great, but sort your QC out and engage with us about what you're doing to fix it, how can it be "the best" with all the problems?

Yes very cheeky! Obviously there’s not a category for Best Locomotive Kit?! Or worst QC and customer communication! 

Am I right in thinking the blue cradles were post privatisation? 

I’ve been looking for details on the MGR Coal trains that ran to Hope Cement (Earles Sidings) during the late 80s early 90s sectorisation period.

Unfortunately I’ve not been able to find much info or photos of these.

I’m interested in where the workings originated from, the typical number of HAA hoppers (did they use full length sets or were they reduced) and usual motive power type if possible. 
 

Any specific details like head code and timing would be great as well!

Many thanks in advance for any help with this.
 

Thanks for the replies and the body swap suggestion definitely makes sense!

I’ll take it up with the shop, as it was listed as a Blue/Grey 32-287 and they don’t appear to advertise any items as being pre-owned.