Unknown Warrior

5552 Silver Jubilee in LMS Black Livery.

I recently acquired a copy of Portraits of Castles by Bryan Holden an Kenneth Leech. This book is invaluable to anyone who wants to renumber a Castle as there is at least one photo of each member of the class, more when they had been modified, eg. double chimney. There are also sketches of modification and original fittings. Sorry if this has already been mentioned. I haven't been through all 31 pages of this thread!

The public launch of the Project was April 2008. Since The Unknown Warrior's appearance at Warley last November fund raising has accelerated quite considerably and we are now working hard to maintain that momentum. Completion in September 2017 is feasible as long as the money is raised. The programme for the rest of the build is mapped out and we are currently on target. Likewise fund raising is on target but we still need to keep the increase going.

Sorry for the lack of updates for some time. This does not mean the project has been standing still, quite the contrary! The loco is now firmly on it's driving wheels and was a star attraction at The Great Dorset Steam Fair, where around £9,000 was raised for the project. All three cylinders are now cast. The center cylinder is machined and the two outside cylinders are in the process. The back plate for the inner firebox has been formed and the former for the firebox tube plate and throat plate are being produced. The decision has been taken to cast the second set of bogie wheels and that has now happened. This will allow work towards completing the rolling chassis by this time next year to progress on schedule. Rowlescourt Engineering of Alfreton in Derbyshire are rebuilding the tender from the components recovered from the two tenders owned by the project and will fabricate the new tender tank. They are doing this for the cost of the materials only, a very generous sponsorship. Projected completion date is mid 2016, in line with the build programme to have the loco completed by September 2017. We are rapidly approaching the £1,000,000 mark for money raised, which leaves another £500,000 to raise for the build cost and a further £500,000 to put it on the mainline, So less than 3 years to raise the second million! There are no second chances to meet the deadline of London on 11th November 2018, so the pressure is now really on! Photos show the three cylinders; The Unknown Warrior at The Great Dorset Steam Fair; bogie wheel casting; bogie wheel pattern and the tender frame drawing.

All cylinders now cast. 5551 is now back at LLangollen. Due to star at The Great Dorset Steam Fair at the end of August. Member's Day on Saturday at Llangollen, so report/photos after that. Then the excitement of a visit to Barwell on Monday!

Poly Pattern for outside cylinder. Due to be cast in early April.

I will be at The Leamington and Warwick Model Railway Exhibition at Stoneleigh with the Patriot Stand this weekend. Please come and say Hello.

45596 Bahamas and 5551 The Unknown Warrior side by side in Tyseley Works, February 2014. The first time a Jubilee and a Patriot have been together for over 45 years! Photo John Hillier.

The last time I saw 41708 in steam at KWVR towards the end of it's last boiler ticket, it was still running with a half cab and I have never seen photos of it running with a full cab in BR days. As far as I know the full cab has only been fitted since it has been at Barrow Hill. I don't know why or if it has ever steamed in this form. Anyone know?

Thought it was time for a bit of an update in case people thought we were taking a break after Warley! Frames at Tyseley for machining and fitting of horn guides and axle boxes. Bogie Center Casting being machined. Inside cylinder awaiting final machining. Motion Girder pattern - 7 feet long! Outside Motion Bracket awaiting machining. Inner firebox drawing. Work due to start soon. Outside cylinder pattern. Both outside cylinders to be cast soon. So plenty going on - watch this space!

Just to break into the doom and gloom, my FOC replacement bogie wheels arrived today. Thank you Hornby!

It will need to be able to generate lots of thick black smoke, and without the deflectors needs to fill the cab as well!

Both versions are pre-conversion to normal, so with and without smoke deflector. One question how many Crostis ran with the late crest before conversion?

Just received the new Hornby Magazine with the special Hornby supplement. It is very clear that the two version Hornby are going to produce are both in Crosti form, with and without smoke deflector. The converted Crosti version is not currently planned. A great shame as they last much longer in the later form and were much more widespread before they were concentrated at Birkenhead and Speke Junction.

We both ended up posting similar ideas at the same time, it is just that I took longer! The front smoke box was a welded chamber not a casting. The smoke box doors were of normal design. Given that there was a spare Crosti boiler it would have been some time before there would have been a need to fit a standard 9F boiler to a Crosti loco. It might well have needed some modifications to fit it. No doubt it would have happened if the 9Fs had survived for their full design life of 30-40 years.

As a light overhaul did not include a boiler lift, it would seem that the modifications require to isolate the preheater and remove the side chimney etc. did not require the removal of the boiler as five of the locos were converted as part of either a light casual or light intermediate overhaul. The lower smoke box door would be straight forward to remove and the aperture plated over. I think the current system of boiler inspections was brought in more recently than the end of BR steam as boiler repairs which would require recertification now would have been fairly common place in BR Days and would be certified at the time, which would have been considerably sooner than seven years! Do bear in mind that BR locos covered more miles in 2-3 years than preserved locos do in a full boiler certificate!

I'm sorry I will have to question this! First of all it depends on what you mean by a General Overhaul. All of the 9Fs received at least a light casual overhaul at one of the major works, mainly Crewe or Swindon, during their lifetime. . Only 81 of the class carried the same boiler throughout their lives, including three of the Crostis: 92020/22 &29 (there was a spare Crosti boiler: 1903 which was fitted to 92024, 11.61, and therefore only ran in converted form).Interestingly 92020 was withdrawn 21.10.67 (correction from my previous post) and the other two made it through to 11.11.67! As might be expected most of the 81 were from those built later but not exclusively. One interesting example is a very early build loco: 92004, built 01.54. It is probable that it never received a heavy general ( I can't be certain as there is no record of the level of overhaul it received at Crewe during it's last visit 10-11.66.) and it was not withdrawn until 23.3.68! One of the last handful of survivors. Conversely 92203"Black Prince", built 06.04.59, received two changes of boiler at heavy casual overhauls 05-07.64 & 10-12.66, the later ensured it's sale to David Shepherd and preservation. Another late survivor, one of the last three, 92167, one of the three fitted with mechanical stokers, built 05.58 also did not have a boiler change but survived until 06.68! As far as the level of repair received by the Crostis at the time of conversion only 92020 received a heavy general. (92022 &23 never received a heavy general and both survived to 11.11.67.) 92021/26/27&28 only received a light casual, 92022-24 & 29 received a heavy casual and 92025 received a light intermediate. Therefore the notion that the Crostis received a complete rebuild at the time of conversion does not stand up. I would therefore suggest that their late survival did no relate to the thoroughness of the work at conversion. It could well be that work concentrated mainly on that necessary to conversion plus the replacement of any parts in need of repair. So that leaves us with "luck of the draw" and the fact that they were mainly concentrated in one area, Speke Junction and Birkenhead LMS to explain their late survival, unless anyone knows better! As far as the "8F" classification is concerned there is no doubt that it was never official. However two comments of interest from: 1. The RCTS Book - "After conversion to conventional operation, the Crosts were unofficially down-rated to 8F. This rating could even have slipped into the 7F category if an ad hoc alteration to the tractive effort calculation formula, attempting to take into account the substantial reduction in total heating surfaces of the over 40% following the removal of the preheater." 2.Terry Essery in "Steam Locomotives Compared" - "In this form they (the converted Crostis) tended to be used on duties which did not call for high boiler output but this still allowed them plenty of scope." Terry Essery was a top link fireman at Saltley during the 1950's and was a great fan of the 9Fs. He regularly fired on the Birmingham-Carlise non-stop freights and was involved in the initial trials of the mechanical stoker fitted 9F's on those turns. On one occasion he hand fired 92167 for nearly 200 miles when a large lump of coal jammed the stoker. Anyone who has seen a photo of the fire hole door of the stoker fitted 9Fs will recognize what a feat of endurance that was! I would accept that the extra pair of driving wheels would be very helpful in transmitting the available power to the rails, whatever the power classification, which is why Riddles insisted on a 2-10-0 rather than a 2-8-2 for the 9Fs. All the above information, apart from the "Terry Essery Quote" is taken from "A detailed history of British Railways Standard Steam engines, Volume 4" RCTS.

According to the detailed allocations in the RCTS Book only one of the ex-Crostis went to Croes Newydd: 92029, which was there from 5/66 to 8/66. This of course does not mean that other ex- Crostis did not visit. Before conversion all the Crosti were at Wellingborough and returned there after conversion before moving on between 12/60 and 1/64 most then going to Kettering, before becoming more widely dispersed. Most (all except 92027 & 92028) came back together at Birkenhead LMS between 1/65 & 2/67, contrary to the information in my post (77) above. Since making that post I have been through the detailed allocations. I still do not have an adequate answer as to why: 1. They survived so long. The last eight were in the major cull of 11.11.67 after Birkenhead LMS was closed. 31 of the surviving 9Fs were withdrawn on that day, leaving only 23 on the books. It is quite remarkable that a group of 8 of 10 initially unsuccessful experimental engines should last longer than nearly 200 of the conventional members of the class. Was it just luck of the draw? In which case they were remarkable survivors! It has been suggested that their marginally lighter axle loading might have been the reason, but the highest loading was on the tender axles, like the LMS 8Fs. Another reason might have been that they had not done particularly high mileages, although they had probably done more that some other members of the class. 2. Why, after being quite widely dispersed, were most of them brought back together to see out their time at Birkenhead? Anyone any ideas.

Crosti Allocations once they left Wellingborough. Once the class left Wellingborough between 1960 & 1964 they became quite widely spread: Kettering, Carlisle Kingmoor, Annesley, Saltley,, Banbury, Croes Newydd, Rowsley and Buxton, although my two sources: RCTS and British Railway Steam Allocation do not agree over 92022: Rowsley or Buxton. By 1966 two were at Saltley: 28 & 29, 28 was withdrawn from there :10/66 and 29 went to join it's classmates at Speak Junction. The rest ended up at Speak Junction:22,25 27 & 29. Birkenhead LMS: 20,21,23,24, & 27, from there they were withdrawn more or less en bloc 10-11/67 apart from 27 withdrawn 08/67.

Here you are Bob: Delivery date. Deflector fitted. Stored awaiting conversion. Conversion to conventional arrangement. withdrawn. 92020 18.05.55 11.55 05.59-03.61 06.61 10.67. 92021 18.05.55 11.55 04.59-04.60 06.60 11.67 92022 18.05.55 02.56 05.59-03.62 06.62 11.67 92023 20.05.55 02.56 04.59-06.61 09.61 11.67 92024 06.06.55 02.56 08.59-01.60 02.60 11.67 92025 17.06.55 12.55 04.59-02.60 04.60 11.67 92026 17.06.55 12.55 not stored 09.59 11.67 92027 25.06.55 12.55 04.59-08.60 10.60 08.67 92028 06.07.55 02.56 08.59 12.59 10.66 92029 08.07.55 02.56 06.59-06.60 08.60 11.67 Source: British Railways Standard Steam Locomotives, Vol 4, RCTS.

Thanks Legend. I have reread my Model Rail and see that the post Crosti version will be on offer. It was just that there are views of the Crosti version with and without smoke deflector on the side exhaust. Perhaps they will supply the deflector as an add on in "the bag of bits." This would make sense as they ran with or without for only two or three years, as opposed to being in store. We may get more clarity when the next Hornby Magazine with the promised special supplement comes out next week. Or perhaps when the Catalogue appears in due course. If my memory serves me correctly it is usually available at The Stafford Show at the beginning of February.

The latest edition of Steam Railway arrived today(subscription copy), due out 3rd Jan. Understandably Bittern's 90mph runs grabs the first double spread of news, but turn the page and "The Unknown Warrior" gets second billing along a with reproduction of the painting. The headline news is that work on the formers for the inner firebox will start in January with a target date of August for completion. It is also hoped to order the two sections of the 14 feet long boiler barrel during the first half of the year. Significant progress with the front bogie is also expected over the next few months. The outside cylinder patterns will also be ordered during January. All this in spite of David Bradshaw's words that the project is "pausing for breath" after the "spectacular success" of the engine's visit to Warley. The amount raised at Warley, including Gift Aid, is likely to approach £15,000. We still of course have a lot of money to raise, so it will be back out onto the road at the end of January, when the stand will be at one of it's familiar haunts: The Great Central Winter Steam Gala 24th-26th Jan. Come and see us there!

Good point. We tend to forget that the race into more obscure models by Bachmann and Hornby must be hurting the smaller manufactures of kits and RTR. At least 00 Works already have my money for the Midland 2Fs and the L&Y 0-6-0ST! Golden Arrow have already lost an order from me following Bachmann's announcing the Stanier Mogul. I had already acquired a Bachmann Fowler tender for it. It would however have cost me rather more than the Bachmann Model, as I intended to use a Comet chassis kit. There in lies the rub! As far as the Crosti is concerned I have too many other projects awaiting my time including a pair of Craftsman Midland 0-4-4Ts, not to mention a Patriot at 12" to the foot and helping to run the other complete Midland Branch Line! A RTR Crosti in final condition would however be an attractive proposition.

As I have just received my "up market" version of Duke of Gloucester and am pleased with it, I turned my attention to the promised Crosti 9F. I think this is another intelligent choice and I might be tempted once I have seen it in the flesh! As far as I can make out Hornby is to produce the two variations which ran while they were still running as Crostis: with and without smoke deflector on the side chimney. I hope that they will produce the final version, after they were converted to normal operation, in due course. They ran In their final form for over half theirs operational careers (bearing in mind that some of them spent up to 2 years in store before conversion) and that the majority of the class lasted into the last 12 months of BR steam, before they were withdrawn more or less en bloc in Oct/Nov 1967. The final version would therefore be an excellent choice for the 60's steam period! I hope that Hornby will be allowing for the final variation at the design stag. Quite why the converted locos lasted so long is an interesting question, as they outlived around half of their conventional class mates, especially as they were really only 8Fs in their final form and there were plenty of LMS and WD 8Fs sill around. Sorry if all this has been said before in the general discussion of the Hornby 2014 range, but I think a topic devoted to the Crostis in their own right might throw up some interesting points. I will be publishing my thoughts on the DoG in the appropriate topic later.

Just when I thought there would be nothing else to report, I received this link to the website where a summary of this year's achievements, together with an update on the next phase of work can be found: http://www.lms-patriot.org.uk/news/2013-12-24/2013-review-unknown-warrior-tour-rolling-chassis