RandyWales

That video just about sums up the problem! I really feel for those who have spent time and money recording top quality audio samples only to suffer the loss in quality that existing sound decoders impose...must be very frustrating. I've spent the afternoon playing around with various freely obtainable soundtrack samples, cutting bits here and there and playing them back through my Heljan Class 37's onboard Bluetooth speaker using the SoundByte iPad application. Being a bit of a loon (only a bit?), I also played back several STEAM tracks through the Class 37 speakers simply to see if the sounds were affected by being the speaker being enclosed in a confined space. I needn't have worried....the sounds were excellent. Quality audio via Bluetooth is...convincing...very convincing. Sorry, people....anyone who thinks onboard Bluetooth Audio Streaming, especially in 7mm scale, isn't worth a look is very mistaken... Yes, there's the occasional drop-out...but it costs less than £15 per loco for goodness sake! Has anyone else out there started experimenting? Anyone care to shoot me down? Randall

Hi again.... I wasn't my intention to have a rant and then leave it up in the air without follow-up, but the birth of our first grandson changed things.... So.... How on earth does overlaying the sound of a Youtube video with a soundtrack have anything to do with the running of trains around a layout? There is a reason behind this ludicrous notion.... The eyes see a steam train....the ears hear a steam train...the brain makes the connection regardless of whether there is close synchronisation between the rotation of the wheels and the chuffs.... It is extremely difficult to get an accurate representation of a steam loco programmed onto a sound decoder. Slicing and dicing the complex sounds of a steamer is next to impossible. So why bother? Rather than programming a composite of sounds trying to cover the many different speed steps, why not fill up the available memory on a soundchip using an extended sample taken from a real soundtrack - a single loop lasting fifteen seconds or so.... I'm sure most modellers who love 'watching their trains go by' would jump at the chance to have authentic sounds of a real steam train rather than rubbish composite samples that sound toylike. Who would care if acceleration and deceleration steps were excluded if the train sounds just like the real thing as it runs past between scenic breaks. This brings me to speakers... My tests with Bluetooth Audio Streaming have highlighted the fact that playback of a soundtrack through a typical 4mm speaker sounds far better than soundchip-advocates would have you believe. The real reason for poor sounds from a soundchip is the fact that the samples are compressed by the software used to build the project long before the sounds are loaded into a soundchip itself. Sound samples are data. One's and zero's. The chip doesn't care. If the software used to create soundchip projects was modified to save the data in it's original sample size, the quality playing through your small speakers would be infinitely better. To repeat....I have played quality samples through tiny speakers using SoundByte, so the proof is there. For 4mm, it's far better than you get using existing techniques using compressed sounds. Correspondingly, because the same compression technology is used in 7mm, if you fed soundchip output through a BOSE speaker, it would still sound rubbish. I am NOT against sound decoders....far from it. They can yet be of a standard that we deserve for the price we are expected to pay. If the manufacturers rewrite their compilation software, and the next generation of chips have bigger memory, then they'll no longer have to try to lay the blame on the speaker. Randall

Hi again... I've been watching several Youtube videos of superb quality 7mm steam locomotives with soundchip sounds... The owners have obviously spent mega bucks on their models, but they are REALLY BADLY let down by sounds that are an ABSOLUTE JOKE! Why are people happy with such rubbish? There needs to be an official inquiry! I then played a ”REAL" soundtrack (nb. NOT synthesised....) overlaid across the same videos, and it was a totally convincing portrayal. Using SoundByte (£1.99), I then played the same track through the small Bluetooth speaker that cost £11.99 in Sainsburys... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80412-cheap-superior-quality-onboard-sound-for-7mm/&do=findComment&comment=1422014 'Twas even better! To blame the speakers is a gross mis-representation of the truth. Uncompressed sounds through half-decent speakers, however presented....HELLO......GO FIGURE! Randall

Hi Paul... Just discovered Parcels Point and have done a whirlwind zip through the thread...and even then you're modelling much too fast for me to keep up.... Looking forward to seeing this at a show near me in August? You are quickly becoming a must-go-see modeller.... I suspect this started off as a casual project.... Why not ask Andy Y to move it into the Layouts thread...you'll get many more appreciative viewers there! Randall

Hi Ray.... I'm beginnning to understand where you are coming from on this.... When I saw my first sound-equipped diesel (BR Class 25) at Howes, I was immediately put off by the fact that the volume was too loud, and too constant over distance. The loco ran away to the end of a long shelf in the shop, and the volume didn't recede with the distance. This put me off soundchipped locos for a long time. I eventually bought a Bachmann Class37 and was able to partially overcome this shortcoming on my loft layout due to natural sound baffles in the room. With regard to automatically adjusting volume levels to compenstate for changes in distance, Bluetooth has an inbuilt 'signal' that can report the devices' proximity to other devices, and thereby theoretically control some software that would adjust volume. Randall

Hi Ray... Totally agree with your quip about overpriced sound chips... There are some very clever people around, so I won't go as far as to say your idea can't become reality. However, the lens in the sky may be dazzled by reflections off the solar panel on the back of my bonce... So, why not a variation on car reversing proximity sensors? Seriously though, there are those among us with the requisite expertise who can massage / mix sounds with effects like reverb and echo to push even further towards your ideal. Maybe it's because the loco sounds are too 'dry' in isolation, and need to be mixed with background atmospheric ambience to give a more natural aural experience. Getting way out of my depth now though.... Randall

Hi Ray.... Everything we do modelwise has to be a compromise, doesn't it? Sounds through a chip are made up of tiny samples stitched together. Playback of a soundtrack through an onboard speaker is infinitely better, given all the compromises. If you look at the Railway Sounds website, you will see that the sounds were recorded using professional techniques (there is a page dedicated to How we Dunnit). There is a reference to the best recording distance-from-the-subject and they echo what you are saying. Maybe sampling those specific sounds will give you better results. Randall

Hi Ray.... I'm really glad someone else has decided to give Bluetooth Audio Streaming a try.... The more tests that are carried out, and the more appraisals that are reported the better. I agree that interfaced sound and motion control is important (and still my objective) but the SoundCart method is offered as a viable alternative for those who are interested. I am piping steam sounds through my BT speakers as I type and I am very impressed. I must admit, in my mind's eye, it seems as if there is a scale steamer simmering away less than 36 inches from my seat. Is it possible that your 'scale sound' problem is due to the nature of the sounds you are using. As an example, have a listen to this <http://www.railwaysounds.co.uk/nymr/nymrvintage/btp/b9.mp3> Play it through your BT speaker (placed about 36 inches away). I certainly have no problem with listening for 'scale sound'.... I don't think volume plays a part...it's the quality that counts, and these are excellent. (The tracks on the Railway Sounds site come under the Creative Commons Licence that I spoke of...) Randall

Seems as if this is a rather unique take on the subject of interfacing sound and motion control. I've (seen and) heard some of the more recent MSTS offerings (very impressed indeed), so when you do achieve your objective, please come back and tell us more. Randall

Hi again... Here is a quick run down on the SoundByte Cart iPad app....others Cart apps are very similar in operation. Press any button on the active Cart for about a second, and the Settings screen (below) is displayed. You select the Sound file to be associated with the button from your iPad Sounds Library. The Help file explains in detail what the relevant setting does... Briefly... Each button has a volume control that is set here...relative to the Master volume setting. Cart Pan sets the position in the sound field where this sound should be located. Cart Rate controls playback rate (ie. faster or slower) Probably not suitable for our purposes. Button colour and Text size are self evident. Cut In time determines where the Start Point for playback in the associated sample is located (if required). Probably the most important setting is Looping Count... (in seconds). A high number in this setting will also ensure that a Looped sound is not Faded when other buttons are pressed. Fade time is important....sample crossover is smoother if this is used properly. It also controls the Master fade control....used in association with the Fade In Playback and Fade Out Playback settings. Using these settings, the sounds get louder and softer as the train enters or leaves the layout. The other important button is Touch Fades Other Carts....it fades the sound of the PRECEDING button, and triggers THIS button's playback....makes for smoother transitions. Not much more really.....experiment for yourselves... Randall

An interesting option....and you mention 'development'....maybe you could update on progress? Randall

Hi Ben.... Maybe this could be THE method for triggering sounds for 2mm scale... Most of these apps use the .wav file format (many other formats too). There are suitable sounds out on the web under the Creative Commons licence which grants you the right to use them for non-commercial use. You may need to slice'n'dice them using a program like Audacity (open source) to provide a suitable bank of sounds. Randall

Hi David.... I wholeheartedly agree with your opening paragraph... And both your ideas 'sound' good to me.... As well as an operator controlling the trains, a Fireman/Secondman could control the sound....maybe it would give Club Members more collaborative tasks at exhibitions / club nights.... Randall

Hi again... Making a start then.... The application genre is called a 'Cart Machine' (with it's history in Radio Production apparently).... and was originally hardware-based, where the sounds were held on CART-ridges. 'Carts' are intended for use by DJ's, Radio and Podcast producers and Stadium 'goal celebration' soundbites amongst other things. Available in many guises on Tablet and Smartphone, there are also versions available on Windows, Mac, (probably Linux too) etc etc... I'll be discussing some of the apps available on the iPad, (plus iPod and iPhone), and as far as I'm aware, there are many equivalents for Andriod devices. Basically, the fact that these apps are available on TouchScreen devices such as tablets and phones, makes this a compact and convenient means of triggering sounds for the layout. The cost can vary, but most apps are priced at few £pounds. I know people are going to say the hardware (tablet or phone) is a big expense to consider. That's fair enough, but I've never used a soundchip to book a holiday. Down to the nitty-gritty.... The iPad app with the greatest scope was SoundByte by BlackCat Systems (£1.99) - that's the one I used in the videos...not the prettiest to look at, but it had capabilities that the others did not. By the way...I'm not proud of the standard of my video demonstrations...they were cobbled together in very short order....they are poor and they don't do justice to this method. Sound samples are assigned to buttons, and the buttons can be assigned different functions, such as looping. Most Sound Boards (as they are also known), are polyphonic (can play several sounds simultaneously) With SoundByte, sounds can also be panned. With stereo speakers, you can pan the sound of an idle loco standing in a siding to the left, with another different loco standing to the right. You can then pan a train travelling through the scene. And if you assign a button to the sound of your signal cabin's bells, that can be panned wherever in between. Each sample button has it's own volume control. Sounds can also be faded over time, so the train can still be heard in the distance even though it's stopped in the fiddleyard. As demonstrated in the Steam Video, you can trigger the sounds of the carriages or wagons squealing through your pointwork, or the clickclack over the railjoints. As well as using offboard speakers for ambient sounds, I will also be using Bluetooth Audio Streaming direct from my iPad to the onboard speakers for my 7mm fleet. The sound quality alone leaves chips in the dust. I'll close for now with a final thought... It will be obvious there is no connection between Sound and Motion. You therefore have to drive the train to match the sounds that you hear. That may not seem attractive and a massive pitfall to many, but that's not how it feels... Besides, many chip programmers have you do exactly the same by pressing function buttons. You have a tremendous amount of control over the sounds produced, and on a small layout, which may not justify expenditure on soundchips, this is a worthy option. Randall...

Hi again.... Here's another one.... With refinement, I think it'll sound brill on my layout... I'll be streaming the sounds via Bluetooth to onboard speakers. Ideal for dirt cheap 7mm sound? Randall

Hi Marc.... I'm still wondering what direction this could be heading in... For example, the Steam Train was just a four second sample... Many options there then.... I think it may also be suitable for use with full length soundtrack samples - say for a Terminus to Fiddleyard. I'm still experimenting... It's obviously not going to suit every application on every layout, but it could fill a big void. It could also be used to compliment DCC soundchips, although the difference in sound quality might be too apparent. I'll exlain how it all works when I get my head around the options. Randall

Here you go then.....hope you like it..... The sounds of the train are panned from left to right at each step, although it's hard to tell in a Youtube video. Take it from me....it sounds really good. The speakers are cheapo's from a bargain shop, so they don't really do it justice. I'll tell all later.... Randall

Hi again... Some members will be aware that I have been a keen participant in the Cheaper and Better DCC Sound thread. Driven predominantly by my personal opinion regarding the excessive cost of 7mm Sound Decoders, I was convinced I could save a huge amount of money by coming up with an alternative. That thread has been quiet for a couple of months, but still seems to be generating interest, judging by the rising number of hits..... I concede that the thread would appear to have stalled, but I think that was because conflicts were starting to surface. Offline, however, I have continued to strive towards this personal goal, ably assisted by Clickerty Clack, who is a very genuine and knowledgable guy when it comes to sound matters. I have been looking at several methods, whilst trying to develop the link between sound production and motion control of the locomotives. I made great strides using the free (and very professional) PureData music production software program which can share USB gamepad-driven control methods with the free JMRI DCC system. Puredata has a big brother called MaxMsp which has much more functionality, but the licence is quite expensive. However, I developed a workable system during the four week free trial period. It is an offboard (pc-based) system, sending sounds to the loco via Bluetooth Audio Streaming. That is more of a longterm project, and the free version is certainly cheap in comparison with Sound Chips. The other major benefit is that the sound quality is far superior to that available on current Sound Chips. As part of my 'education', I tried to program a LokSound project, but I was really surprised and disappointed to find that the compilation process reduces the sound quality by around a third - necessary to pack enough sound samples onto a chip. At this time, however, I would like to share with members a method of Layout Sound production that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere before. It's very early days yet, but this an exciting new angle, so watch this space! Above all....it's more or less 'as cheap as chips' (unlike Sound Chips!)... I'll post a video in the next few days.... Randall

I think I know where that one came from :-) No Christmas lights for sale in the Bishopston area as far as I can remember.... Randall

Hi Ian.... I've based my Costleigh 7mm layout on David Hampson's Oldham King Street Parcels layout which is a later incarnation of his earlier layout... The clincher for me was the fact that I can have a main line loco and two/three coaches arrive in the station, with the rest of the "10 coach train" off-scene' which leaves plenty of room for shunting elsewhere... Minories has always been a favourite concept of mine.... I moved up to 7mm in July when the Heljan Western and Dapol 08 were on the horizon. I've got the Western..... Now....hopefully...hopefully...the 08 will be along in the not too distant future... A video (by Andy Mitchell) of Oldham King Street Parcels is here: Randall

Hi Ian Are you intending to use the railway room shown in your Eastney thread? If so, you have the option of using the far end (narrows to the window) for a pivotted fiddle stick that could feed a hidden kick-back fiddle-yard. (edit: maybe not for 5 coaches though) It looks like you have access to both sides of that board, so the hidden kick-back yard would be ideal. If so, I'd say you've got an abundance of space for a 7mm layout.... And that's not including the space for a second layout on the other side of the room.... AND/OR Feed the smaller side from the same kick-back yard with a PECO Setrack sharp curve around the back. Randall

Doh! The test track wasn't DCC, was it?

Oops...sorry.... My intention was to post a couple more images, but they were not up to scratch, and in the process of removing them I got a callout from work and in the rush, I managed to delete the post. Pity the first Western was damaged....you probably would have had time to fit the sound chip before Carmarthen.... I'll be ordering a blue one asap....

A small selection of images from today's 7mm show in Carmarthen. I believe this was the first public appearance of Frecclesham (pron: Freccles Ham). Something for SR modellers to look forward to.... Randall

Hi....A small selection from today's Cardiff show Randall