Rivercider

I have asked a question about this train on the Facebook Group 'Westbury Railway, Old past and Present'.

Some photos have been posted, it looks like the cement covered plate wagon had been modified in some way,

possibly with  a section of side door removed or replaced, such that concrete could be poured over the side in a chute as required, there was a picture of the mod being carried out at Chippenham in September 1981.

There is also a photo taken at Somerton of a concrete mixer lorry discharging concrete onto the plate wagon somehow from the lineside at Somerton. I think Wheatley's colleagues might have heart failure at this.

Another photo, taken from the road bridge at Westbury (similar to my photo of 31171) shows that at a later date the Toad mess van was replaced by the BSK shown in the other photo.

cheers 

33 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

We thought the plate might be a candidate as well when we were talking about them on Friday, but I couldn't find my way back to those photos yesterday. 

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brplate/e3e6721e2

and

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brplate/ea4b2b15

 

both have the same S&T new works Chippenham branding as well, so one of those might be the other, but I doubt we will ever know.

 

Jon

I noticed the Chippenham S&T branding on the wagons, and the 8287 pool number, and also saw that Paul Bartlett had captured a couple more wagons with the same pool number and branding. 

I wonder if the train ran in exactly the same formation each time? More likely it was the same for a few outings, then varied slightly over the weeks and months with wagons drawn from pool 8287,

cheers

I used Flickr search terms such as 'Westbury re-signalling', Westbury MAS', then 'Westbury 1982' and 'Westbury 1983'.

I also now realise I may have taken a photo of the wagons myself.

A returning ballast drop from Woodboro departs Westbury for East Depot behind 31171. The train of plough plus 10 dogfish was a regular formation for a midweek ballast drop back then, often worked by a class 31. On the left can be seen wagons in the Nitrovit Siding which was used by the S&T dept. 23/8/83.

I also found this photo on Flickr by grahamwalker007 which shows another train that was used in the Westbury MAS project.

50011 approaching Hawkeridge Junction, note the mess coach in the train in the siding, 21/5/83,

cheers

Looking at Flickr I may have found some of the wagons, in pictures taken by Jamerail (Swindon123 on RMweb),

if you click on the photo it will link to Flickr with the wagon numbers.

. 

As an aside when I worked in Westbury TOPS some years later two of the TOPS clerks told me they earned a lot of Sunday overtime unloading concrete troughing at the lineside,

cheers

Sure there will have to be compromises in that space, but I have seen plenty of interesting layouts in a space of around 8' x 2', 

Do you have an idea of what form the future large layout might take? If the 8' x 2' layout is not going to be incorporated into the larger scheme it would still make sense if some of the buildings scenery, locos and stock would be used on the large layout. Do you have a favourite railway company or region, or is there a part of the country you might want to set the layout? It might help give pointers of some real locations from which you could draw inspiration,

cheers

Mentioned on another thread some time back was the regional variations of referring to the control office.

On the Western Region we always spoke of the conTROL office (my emphasis). Later when I worked with former Southern men they referred to the CONtrol.

cheers

Yesterday I travelled up from Exeter to Salisbury. In one of the stations I noticed the down line was laid with flat bottom cwr on concrete sleepers, but for some distance there was a pair of wooden sleepers about every 60'. I assume this must have been laid in 60' sections (with a wooden sleeper at each end) and subsequently the rails replaced by cwr. Might the sleepers date from SR days before the transfer to WR in 1963?

cheers   

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

I noted a decent colour photo of this example while browsing steam mags many years ago now and was very surprised to see one of these in BR lined green without cab side windows - couldn't help wondering how it managed to collect one without the other. I can't recall the condition of the tender now but here the lining on the loco's cab side is just discernible but not on the tender - the latter's large BR crest suggests this isn't lined and may not be green either. 

 

 

I'd also be interested in the answer to this question!

 

I've always been a diesel modeller with the odd foray into steam, but something about these locos always appealed - so much so that I bought the Wills kit in the 1970s but never built it as the Mainline model came out, so I bought one of those instead. Eventually I had this, an Airfix 14xx and 'Castle', a Lima 45xx and Mainline 57xx and 43xx, but moved them all on in the early '90s when I got seriously into modelling diesel-hydraulics..........until around 2003 when the Bachmann 45xx was announced. I knew resistance was futile with this so immediately started another steam collection with the purchase of........yes, a Bachmann Collett Goods, 2277 in lined green! From my point of view it's a pity these were never seen in Cornwall, although I looked up 2277's allocation history and discovered that it was an Exmouth Junction loco late on in life (along with 2214 IIRC) which must have been as close to Cornwall as any '2251s' ever got, lending a little extra validity to Rule 1!

 

That Wills kit was the closest I ever got to building a whitemetal steam loco kit - I often wish I'd persevered with it, just for the experience. After all, no pony trucks or valve gear to worry about. No, no, please don't mention Ebay, it's way too late now 😁!

I had always thought (perhaps wrongly) that the 2251 class locos that were allocated to Exmouth Junction late in the day were for use as snow plough locos to replace a couple of former LSWR 700 class 0-6-0s,

Edit - 700 class Nos 30689 and 30697 got stuck in deep snow drifts west of Okehampton in February 1963, 30689 suffered damage at the time and was withdrawn. Q class 0-6-0 No. 30530 was the replacement at the time. There are photos of 2251 class at Exmouth Junction fitted with ploughs on Flickr possibly a bit later.

cheers

Swindon Newburn Sidings were just south of the Works located across the main lines on the down side. I first knew Swindon Newburn Sidings in the 1970s, they were in use by the Civil Engineer by that date and my dad sometimes visited to check up or chase engineers wagons. 

The term 'Burn' for a watercourse is not commonly used in Wiltshire, though I never thought much about it at the time.

Recently when reading 'Locomotive Engineers of the GWR' by Denis Griffiths I learnt that when Joseph Armstrong became Locomotive, Carriage, and Wagon Superintendent  the GWR built a dwelling for him west of St Marks Church, which Armstrong named  'Newburn' after the town on the Tyne where he had previously lived and worked.  

The sidings which are located just west of the house must therefore be named after Newburn House, or Newburn the town on the Tyne, or am I adding 2 + 2 to make 5?

cheers

I went to York a few times back in the 1980s, and spent a few hours at Holgate Junction. I remember taking photos

from down near track level, so I was probably on the old cattle dock then? The photos of mine I have found so far 

do not show either of the signs but I reckon I must have seen them back then.

I have had a quick look through Flickr, there are loads of photos taken in the area, but I have not found any with the signs,

cheers 

I imagine my overgrown shunting plank to be the truncated remains of a short branch line serving the eastern suburbs of Exeter, mid 1960s to late 1970s.

I have no WTT written down but in my head the branch passenger is formed by the residual Okehampton passenger service (normally a single power car) extended through Exeter to terminate there and return to Okehampton about half a dozen times a day.

The class 08 yard pilot arrives early each morning from Exeter Riverside with a couple of wagons, to shunt the yard as required.  This is followed by the main morning trip working from Riverside which brings most of the priority freight traffic, this tripper then returns to Riverside with any available traffic. The freight trip loco makes a second visit as required around mid day, then after a break again returning to Riverside with the bulk of the outgoing traffic. Around 17.00 the 08 pilot finishes the shunt and returns to Riverside engine and brake, or possibly with a wagon or two.

My small fiddle yard can hold two short trains on one road (the 08 pilot plus 3 or 4 wagons, and the single car DMU), while the other road holds a loco plus 6 or 7 wagons for the freight trip. I select the wagons for the trips as the mood takes, a mix of 16t mins, vanfits, presflos, are the regular traffic. A van of explosives, or engineers traffic adds variety.

In practice the train service is something like:-

08 & BV arr.

DMU arr and dep.

Freight trip arr and dep.

DMU arr and dep.

Freight trip arr,

DMU arr and dep.

Freight trip dep.

DMU arr and dep.

08 & BV dep.

DMU arr and dep.

cheers.

When searching Flickr for possible photos of class 47s on unfitted coal trains I was trying to think of the industrial locations 

that were late conversions to MGR working.

Padiham power station was one, but I can only find class 40s on coal.

Willington power station was another late conversion, though I only find 44s and 20s so far.

Export coal through Swansea docks was mostly in MDOs and worked by 37s.

Any other possible locations?

cheers

I have spent quite some time searching Flickr for a class 47 on unfitted coal trains, they were very elusive. All I could find were a couple of green 47s in the 1960s, and a couple more from the 1970s taken before headcodes ceased to be displayed.

From the era after the end of headcodes there is this by Dave Jolly taken at Newcastle in 1982, though they look to be all 21t MDOs?

47197 Newcastle 23/7/82 by Dave Jolly.

I also found one that I took at Wakefield in 1981, not a coal train, but a lengthy very mixed freight with MCOs at the rear.

Wakefield Kirkgate 47218, that is the end of the train on the far right, 18/9/81

cheers  

The British Steel strike of 1980 saw the storage, (and later condemnation) of large numbers of unfitted coal wagons, particularly MCOs and HTOs. From my own observation at work on BR in Bristol unfitted coal wagons became much rarer in the West Country after 1980.

cheers

5 hours ago, Sol said:

Thanks to all who have responded.

So I assume intermediate / sorting yards would have their own locos to get trains ready, to be added to trains coming in & then continuing on  & of course to sort out stock being left at that sorting yard & I again assume that sorting yard would have been advise in advance how many items of rolling stock is being left there for them to sort?

There would be no standard answer to that, some yards might have a shunting loco or yard pilot available around the clock, while other yards might only have a shunting loco for a few hours a day. In general experienced yard staff would have an idea of what traffic might be arriving, though seasonal variations could change things considerably, domestic coal, seed potatoes, and sugar beet traffic would be examples. If a large or important local customer or factory was expecting a large order the station master or local inspectors would probably be expecting it.

I remember being told by an old hand railwayman who worked at Bridgwater telling me that when the local shunting engine came on duty each morning they had to sort out traffic that had been detached from passing trains in the evening and over night, at busy times the yard was so congested it was hard to shunt. 

Geography played a part in the freight working at Taunton. The steep Wellington Bank to the west of Taunton meant that westbound freight trains could only take a reduced load west of Taunton. This was OK if a train from Bristol or London heading west had some traffic to be detached at Taunton, but might restrict the ability of Taunton to dispatch traffic westwards.

Likewise the steep banks of Cornwall and South Devon restricted the maximum loads of freight trains, many of which were assisted as far east as Newton Abbot. In fact even in recent times it has sometimes been the practice to run some heavy trains in two portions over the banks to either Newton Abbot or Exeter Riverside where the portions are combined into one train to work forward.

Yeoford on the former LSWR/SR line from Exeter to Barnstaple had a small three road yard that sorted out west bound freight traffic, it was enlarged to seven roads in WWII. There was no permanent shunting loco there, but during the course of 24 hours several different locos were available to shunt. Some were passing trains that called for an hour or two, while at other times a loco was booked there for a couple of hours. At one time empty cattle trucks were held at Yeoford, waiting to be called forward to stations for loading on market day.

cheers

14 hours ago, 4901 said:

The manager of Real Salt Lake - Major League Soccer (USA) - made this remarkably astute and profound comment yesterday.

"I just think goals change games," head coach Pablo Mastroeni said.

 

I enjoyed some of the words of wisdom of former Exeter City manager Paul Tisdale.

He said words to the effect that being 2 - 0 up in a game was one of the most difficult positions to be in, not knowing whether to shut up shop, or press to kill the game off. Personally I would have thought that being 2 - 0 down was a worse position!

cheers

I am no signalling expert, so won't comment on details, but it might be important to have more information.

Which railway built and operated the station, and when is it set as signalling arrangements might vary over time,

cheers 

The Parcels Sector was rebranded as RES in 1991.

Here are more photos from Flickr taken at Barton Hill

From Flickr by DMC1947 taken inside one of the sheds Feb 1992. (I searched for Barton Hill 1992)

Searching Flickr for 'Barton Hill 1996' this came up

From Flickr by Alan Bark. This shows the former GWR broad gauge shed, much amended and now used for loco exam and service.

The former Midland sheds are to the left and slightly below this view.

cheers

Have a look at Barton Hill in Bristol.

The depot there had a complicated history. Originally two separate loco sheds side by side (one Midland Railway, the other GWR broad gauge). After they closed as steam sheds they were used as carriage and wagon workshops for decades. When Sectorisation of BR took place Barton Hill became part of RES and took over maintenance of the parcel fleet for the WR and beyond. Later when Bath Road loco depot closed the fuelling and exam of RES class 47s took place. There are photos on Flick, I searched for 'Barton Hill RES).

This from Flickr taken in 2000 by Steve McMullin

Looking the other way another view of Barton Hill.

From Flickr posted by Jeremy de Souza LRPS, but possibly taken by the late Mike Miller.

cheers

6 hours ago, C126 said:

Just one thought: won't it look a little strange the Freights being propelled such a long way out 'off stage' upon departure?  Ditto, any loco-hauled peak-time service E.C.S.

 

Have the freight propelled in to the depot from the local yard which is just off-scene 'up the line'. You might, or might not, need a brake van at the front of the propelling move depending on local circumstances as shown in the Sectional Appendix.

In the Bristol area in the 1980s freight traffic was propelled from Lawrence Hill yard along the freight only Avonside Branch for about a mile to Avonside Wharf, there being no run-round facilities at Avonside. Also in Avonmouth the Rowntrees warehouse at Avonmouth was served by a trip working that then propelled back (right line) for about two miles to Hallen Marsh due to the track layout at Avonmouth. Both moves required a brake van at the front of the movement in which shunters and guard rode as they both crossed gated road crossings.

cheers  

In the 1970s and 1980s Barnstaple had a weekday train service of seven or eight trains (much less than today).

Generally the services were worked by DMUs, but with one or two loco hauled services in each direction. 

The May 1976 WTT showed a couple of loco hauled trains.

The 07.35 Barnstaple to Exeter St Davids was a loco hauled mixed train for which special instructions were included in the Sectional Appendix, as well as mk1 carriages the train  conveyed former Fruit Ds and was restricted to 45 mph, (the loco got to Barnstaple working a freight service).

The 16.00 Exeter St Davids to Barnstaple was loco hauled mk1 set, this set returned as the 17.35 Barnstaple to Exeter St Davids passenger and milk.

cheers

3 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

I was involved in Trainload Coal 1992-1994 and was in TOPS prior to that. I am not doubting the mentions of Discrete Coal Network on here, but I only remember it being titled the Speedlink Coal Network (SCN). Perhaps the Speedlink name was replaced, but it became Trainload Freight West's / Transrail's Enterprise service in the 1990s.  

My memory was that in 1986/87 the Speedlink Coal Network was established. Though some remote coal depots were still served by local trips off the Speedlink network at that stage.  Later the name was changed to Network Coal to further differentiate from Speedlink.

My impression at the time was that it was ridiculous to separate two traffic types onto separate networks, many terminals (both coal depots and general freight customers)  barely warranted a daily service, so to split resources into two seemed madness to me. At the time I was merely a lower grade clerical officer in WR HQ at Swindon, but use of the TOPS system made it obvious to me that the traffic was not there.

cheers

I don't have any WR WTTs for 1973/74, but I do have some for 1976/77. Back then there was a Mandatory WTT and a Conditional WTT for each Division. Quite a few of the Conditional freight trains did run each day, though others were more by customer request or traffic demand.

The WR London Division Mandatory WTT is PA, you would also need the London Division Conditional WTT PF which contains some of the freight workings.

One observation. By 1987/88 Acton Yard had more or less ceased to deal with wagon load traffic, (it never became a proper part of the Speedlink Network), but was then used as a hub principally for aggregate traffic from the Mendips,

cheers

On 11/04/2024 at 19:49, Wickham Green too said:

How many piped vehicles survived at that time without having gained 'proper' vac-brakes ? ...... I've certainly never heard of a VANPIPE or similar coding !

When I joined BR in 1977 the WR civil engineers had no bogie rail carrying vehicles with vacuum brakes, (or air brakes either). A few of the Sturgeons were vac piped code YBP, likewise a few of the Ganes were piped code YLP, and some of the Salmons were piped code YMP. 

cheers

I get the impression that you have given quite a bit of thought to the back story for the Nottingham Extension. 

The question as to whether there was an engine shed at Stanley would depend on a number of factors including where

the first train of the day starts from. Another factor would be who built the Stanley branch? If it was promoted by a small local company there is more chance they would have provided a shed for their loco at their terminus.  If the LNWR promoted and built the line then perhaps more likely they would have resourced the line from their nearest existing loco shed?

cheers