Rivercider

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load freight network was wound down and ceased in May 1984, scrap and domestic coal were among the last traffics. Thereafter remaining domestic coal depots were served by the Speedlink network with coal in HBA and HEA hoppers.

Commencing in November 1986 the domestic coal traffic was separated off from Speedlink onto the separate Speedlink Coal network, with the complete transfer by July 1987. By then there were about 37 coal concentration depots remaining. I was in WR HQ freight planning section at the time and was surprised a separate network was being set up for domestic coal traffic as many of the WR and SR depots were planned for a daily service, yet most were receiving only 5 or 6 wagons each a week!

Speedlink Coal was renamed Network Coal, and it finally closed in April 1993, (the Speedlink Network having already closed in July 1991). Thereafter the only depots regularly served were trainloads of coal to West Drayton and Preston Deepdale.

cheers 

On 21/02/2024 at 14:11, TravisM said:

 

 

I wouldn't dismiss the Bachmann FNA's, especially the early batches as they were built in the early to mid 70's.  The Accurascale one's are far too late for your time frame.  I've attached a link to Martyn Read @Glorious NSE response about FNA's

 

Depends on which batch/numbers they are doing:

 

550000-550005 - 1970

550009-550014 - 1976/7

550015-550016 - 1978

550017-550018 - 1982

550019-550020 - 1984/6

550021-550026 - 1986

550027-550060 - 1988/9

Until 1980 nuclear flask traffic Sellafield to/from locations on the WR at Berkeley, Oldbury, and Hinkley Point passed on ordinary vacuum braked wagon load services. The dedicated Sellafield to Bridgwater and return flask services started running in 1981.

cheers  

My regular spotting trips away from home turf started around 1975, so many of the early diesel classes were gone, and others had retreated from areas where they were once common. Each Region had its own attraction of course.

I was used to seeing 31s and 33s in Bristol and Exeter but there was always a thrill of seeing lines of 31s at Stratford, or 33s at Eastleigh mingling with 73s 09s and DEMUs (EMUs did not interest me).

Class 20s were strange beasts to me, but I have happy memories of trips on the NE/SW route. On the southbound homeward journey on summer evenings we would stand looking out the droplights at the corridor ends when it seemed almost every yard or goods loop we passed had a pair of 20s on a coal train whistling away.

cheers 

47 minutes ago, andy stroud said:

Hi Kevin.

I remember pairs of class 37s on the stone trains from Tytherington in the early 1980s. Talking of mechanical grabs to unload the wagons, I often wondered if the comparatively lightweight empty wagons were ever knocked off the track by over zealous grab operators.

Great work as always Andy.

I recall that the pairs of class 37s were generally used on the PGAs to/from Wolverton, but sometimes also provided to load a MSV set.

I don't recall any specific incident regarding derailment of MSVs during unloading. I do remember office colleagues of mine

who dealt with the stone traffic being very impressed by the skill of the regular grab operators at some of the terminals,

how quickly they could unload wagons, and very cleanly too with very little residue left once they had finished.

cheers 

4 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

How did single track sections work when this line first opened as an atmospheric railway?  A socking great pipe between the rails would make points rather difficult...

I think it was all rather inefficient.

As I understand it when the line between Exeter and Newton Abbot was opened as a single line there was no facility to pass passenger trains, there was only a single platform at each station, the loops at Starcross, Dawlish, and Teignmouth were all goods only.

Then there was always the possibility of a passenger train being braked too early and stopping short, or over-running the platform and then having to be manhandled back.

The atmospheric system might have worked tolerably well as a passenger only service with a regular service between two stations, but there seems to have been no easy way to provide points, or any kind of junction. The telegraph had not been installed at any of the pumping stations which meant that delays could not be advised, so fuel was burnt uselessly to create the vacuum before the next train was ready to depart.

cheers

1 hour ago, DCB said:

That's the book.  Not sure if they still have it, Swindon Central Library is not the easiest place for me to get to, anything over 100 yards from the car is a challenge for me these days.

Was Teignmouth's Temporary station on the same site as the present one?

Yes, the same site, but of course enlarged lengthways, I think when the tunnels were present shunt moves at each end of the station were into the tunnels.

The South Devon Railway stations at Starcross Dawlish and Teignmouth were all apparently meant to be temporary.

They were built out of wood in 1845/46 for the opening of the line.

Dawlish station burned down and was replaced in 1875.

Teignmouth station was rebuilt in 1893-96 when the tunnels opened out and the line doubled.

Starcross main station building lasted until it was demolished in 1981!

cheers

That stone train looks  great, and brings back a lot of good memories.

BR got good value out of those wagons, they were robust, and well suited to the aggregate trade. They were a low tech solution and ideal for a short term terminal with grab discharge. The shortest sets of wagons I remember from my time in Bristol TOPS were the trains that ran from Tytherington to Redditch over night around 1978/79/80. There were two sets in the working each formed of 26 MSVs, (and for a time they were a mixed rake of MSV/MTVs), Each week night an empty set came off the LMR to be swapped with the loaded set at Stoke Gifford yard which then went back to Redditch.   

Hopefully I will get to see Blueball Summit again one day,

cheers

16 hours ago, DCB said:

The  NLS   (National Library of Scotland)  Website has "Georeferenced"  maps of the whole of the UK  and has pre 1888 and pre 1914    25" to a mile maps for the Teignmouth and Dawlish area.   The dates are a bit elastic,  butthe earlier one is Broad gauge single track and the later Standard gauge double track.  There is no tunnel West of the sea wall at Teignmouth on either.  The double track broad gauge ran out along the sea wall and ended at the first tunnel towards Dawlish  There was a signal box there  just by that first tunnel.    I can't find any older maps,

The book you may be remembering is 'Exeter to Newton Abbot - A Railway History' by Peter Kay, which is packed full of history, dates, and photos.

Kennaway Tunnel at Dawlish was widened, and opened to double line in October 1905.

Parsons Tunnel signal box at the west end of Parsons Tunnel opened in 1884 when the line was doubled from there west to Teignmouth, it was later replaced by another box in 1906.

Teignmouth West Tunnel was opened out between 1879-81.

Teignmouth East Tunnel was opened out 1880-84.

The 'temporary' station at Teignmouth dating from the opening of the line in 1845 and was still in use when the broad gauge was replaced in 1892, the new station being constructed in 1893-95,

cheers 

1 hour ago, DCB said:

There used to be a book on the Exeter - Newton Abbott line in Swindon Library, which described the tunnels.   All the tunnels between Dawlish and Teignmouth are asymmetrical due to being originally broad gauge single track  and following the gauge conversion were widened by erecting an internal structure over the standard gauge track and then hacking away at the Sandstone to widen the tunnel,  while the trains continued to run.  No need for a circular cross section as Red Sandstone  a nice material for tunnelling  nice and stable bit not too hard. I can't remember what it said about Teignmouth but there is a very very long down platform for arriving tourists still in place,  For some reason I spend more time watching trains at Dawlish and Teignmouth (and Aviemore) than I do anywhere within 100 miles of home.

It is only in recent years that I have realised that Teignmouth once had two tunnels, though it becomes obvious once you know where they were. When the tunnels were opened out about half a dozen bridges had to be built, three of them at the east end. A number of low quality workers housing was removed at the time, and one of the Teignmouth churches had to be rebuilt on another site to make room for the additional cutting.

 This is a view from the lengthy down platform, it had been extended at least once to avoid down trains requiring to draw up to allow passengers to alight. This section of down platform is now disused and overgrown. The three 'new' bridges can be seen. 3/7/82

cheers

21 hours ago, JimC said:

I'm pretty sure I've seen somewhere that this is the result of altering a single track broad gauge tunnel ino double track standard. ISTR in other cases along there the tunnel was removed completely, but could be wrong.

Yes, the two tunnels, one at each end of Teignmouth station, were opened out when the line was doubled, prior to that Teignmouth station was a very cramped affair,

cheers 

What a great story there BrushVeteran, and very nostalgic photos.

Herer are a couple taken of me when I was little, they have appeared on threads here before.

That is me on the right, with my younger brother Steve on the left, with not much to go on an unknown  location, which must be WR West Country, perhaps about 1964. We had no family car until about 1968, as dad was on the railway we did our holiday trips by train. Dad may have taken the photo, but he was notorious for cutting heads off.

Dawlish Warren is easily identifiable, with me in the middle. This may have been taken by our mum during the week long holiday in a little caravan on the caravan site at the Exeter end on the upside of Dawlish Warren Loops, I remember running back to the caravan to write down the number of passing locos, lots of Warships and class 22s. Here we are probably walking along the sea wall to Dawlish which we often did, (and I still do now). I think the Warship is on a down parcels train, probably summer 1969 or 1970.

cheers  

15 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

As I said earlier, the trip numbers changed later in the decade. This was partly due to a reduction in local freight traffic. T90 was a 

Springs Branch duty, along with T85, which served Co-op Glassworks, amongst others. The two were amalgamated into one, T72, I

think aroond 1985. A lot of the trip numbers remained unchanged for many years, but eventually the whole  Warrington area was

reorganised. I have an old trip notice from  1975 for the old Liverpool Division. It covers trip workings for Edge Hill HS, Garston HS, 

NorthwichHS, Warrington HS and Springs Branch DD. It also covers shunt locos for station and carriage siding pilots. 

If I can find any further info I will post it here. Somewhere I have some Section CG WTTs, which cover th WCML from Crewe to Carlisle.

They are the older type covering Mandatory and Conditional services.

It was always a bit confusing to a Southerner like me, not used to that much freight!

I see in 1982 9T85 06.55 SX Warr Arp to Wigan, but cannot see a return balance.

cheers

On 13/02/2024 at 00:20, RikkiGTR said:

@Davexoc - yep, creamery is a good idea! Chemicals was genuinely an arbitrary choice, just to write *something* there. I had space for another industry of some sort after the redesign. 

The last regular milk by rail on the WR was in 1980, the HSTs having been introduced fully in 1977.  

In the 1980s a small compound, large enough to hold one or two 4-wheel CO2 tanks was constructed in the station yard at Lawrence Hill, which might be inspiration,

Edit - I now realise that an earlier setting is a possibility, 

cheers 

5 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

MIldmay is a bit awkward to say and people won't know if it's pronounced milled or mylde.

The name Mildmay always reminds me of the railway murder in 1914 at or near Mildmay Park,

cheers

We lived near the SR line between Salisbury and Exeter, quite near Exmouth Junction, and my dad took me round there a few times towards the end of steam. My first spotting trips were visits to Exeter St Davids stabling point on Sunday lunchtimes in 1970/71.

We also had a week in a caravan at Dawlish Warren close to the line in one of those summers when I took numbers of passing trains. My first Ian Allan spotting book was the one with the maroon Warship passing Sydney Gardens Bath on the cover, I saw lots of Warships at Exeter.

cheers   

On 12/02/2024 at 11:13, franciswilliamwebb said:

The thing I remember most is the stench of the adjacent sewage works back then.

 

The romance of the iron road - every time I f*rt I think of Bescot 😉

A BR clerical  colleague of mine ( a former Driver), made a quiet comment to himself whenever certain railway locations were mentioned, whenever Bescot was spoken about he would quietly mutter sh*t farm!

cheers 

18 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

The class 47s with HAAs & CAR could have been to/from the Cumbrian Coast. They consisted of 30 wagons + CAR, as did the north west

area MGRs, based around Bickershaw, Parkside, Bold and Sutton Manor. So not easy to to tell one from the other.

The GMC waste trains unloaded at Appley Bridge on the line between Wigan and Southport. The empties heading south (up) through

Warrington BQ would be returning to Northenden.

The photo of the two class 25 hauled freights were probably trip workings. The leading one looks like the Prescot tripper that served the

BICC cable works. The rear train looks like the Gathurst trip, also on the Southport line, this served the ICI expolsive works as well as other

traffic from the Springs Branch area. Not sure of the trip numbers, they changed some during the eighties.

The sand hoppers would have been either from Crofields or Ravenhead. The Ravenhead train (8F21) also went to Springs Branch with MTV

open wagons with sand for the Co-op Glassworks at Platt Bridge. The return empties to Oakamoor ran as 7K02.

The May 1982 Speedlink document I have also lists the trip working and feeder services in connection with the trunk trains.

9T90 09.00 MSX Warr Arp - Gathurst via Southport.

6T90 08.15 MO Springs Branch - Gathurst (barrier wagons)

6T90 10.25 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp.

6T90 12.00 MO Warr Arp - Gathurst 

6T90 13.35 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp

9T90 13.45 SX Gathurst - Warr Arp

Not sure which trip served Prescot, I don't know the names/locations well enough from the list,

Through Lancaster the following trip/feeder services are mentioned.

7P28 06.25 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington

8P36 06.42 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington

7P60 05.30 SO Warr WOJ - Workington

7P36 08.10 MO Warr WOJ - Workington

I am guessing one of the above pair 7P28/8P36 runs air, and one vac (possibly 8P36 at 35mph?)

I do not see any corresponding southbound services from Workington, one loco might work 6O38 17.44 Workington - Dover

and the other 9T31 18.50 Workington - Carlisle?

cheers

3 hours ago, AMac said:

Hi Rivercider,  thanks for the info - all really helpful.  BTW, look through some of your photos on Flickr from time to time as well as your comments on RMWeb but didn't realise it was the same person until a couple of days ago!  Many thanks again.

You're welcome. I have had a lifelong interest in freight trains, (as a child I could hear the trucks shunted near our house),

so always look out for freight train layouts at exhibitions. I have been lucky to have had books about the WR published, the most recent was  Freight Trains of the Western Region  in the 1980s, which does not help you much for Lancaster!

I have the list of Speedlink trains dated 17th May 1982, there are two of the Trunk Train Routes that apply to the north end of the WCML

Route 4. South Wales - Mossend  where the relevant services are:-

6V93 09.05 MSX Mossend - STJ

6V93 05.44 SO Mossend - STJ

6V92 15.50 SX Mossend - STJ

6S97 02.10 MX STJ - Mossend

6S78 19.05 SX STJ - Mossend

Route 5. Mossend - Dover, some trains run ECML, but I think these ran part way WCML.

4M77 15.38 SX Bathgate - Bescot

6M53 17.16 SX Bathgate - Luton (called Warrington Arpley)

4S64 22.00 SX Bescot - Bathgate

6O56 15.32 SX Dundee - Dover (via Carlisle, SO terminate Bescot)

4S87 19.43 SX Luton - Bathgate (via Warrington)

4M38 20.55 SX Mossend - Willesden

4S48 21.56 SX Willesden - Mossend

6O38 17.14 SX Workington - Dover

Although I did not visit the NW that often as a TOPS clerk on BR I did enquiries on other parts of BR out of interest,

and recall that slow freight traffic tended to be diverted away from the WCML over Shap, with some via the Settle and Carlisle.

As the traditional vacuum braked wagon load network contracted up to April 1983 there were fewer and fewer unfitted wagons in revenue service, I am pretty sure that at the end there was a daily class 9 partly vac fitted service each way along the Cumbrian coast to sweep up the odd slow or unfitted vehicles passing between Warrington - Workington - Carlisle (and reverse).

cheers

8 hours ago, AMac said:

HI eastwestdivide,

many thanks for the photos - great to have some examples.  I'm still a bit (maybe a lot!) ignorant of what Speedlink is other than general/all round freight by BR. Looks to me like a variety with the majority airbraked so they can run at 75 mph - is that about right?   I originally thought it was just VAAs / VBA's / VDA's plus VEAs and the OBA/OCA's but I can see there is quite a variety. 

 

For 1981/82, would VDA's be more prevalent due to the palletisation making VAA's/VBA's not matching pallet dimensions (I'm sure I read that somewhere)? And would you get both the bauxite/brown wagons and the railfreight red/grey? I'll check some of the photo sites like Paul Bartlett's.

 

Good to see some vacuum braked trains - I bought some wagons that I thought looked about right and have got a couple of vanwides (VVV and VEV i think) plus a 12T pipe wagon. I may end up with a small vacuum braked rake.

Sorry I am a bit late to this thread.

As already mentioned most trains were either fully vac braked, or air braked by this time, a mixed freight with a brake van was getting rare.

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network lasted until the early 1980s, being gradually succeeded by the introduction of the Speedlink network, (most of which were timed at 60 mph running class 6). I think the vacuum braked network was finally closed in April 1983, the last traffics being things like cement in presflos, clay in clayfits to Scotland, scrap in MCVS, some government stores/explosives in VEV vanwides and SOV pipe wagons, and domestic coal traffic in MCV/MXV/HTVs). The vac braked clay to Scotland went over to an interesting selection of air braked types like the PBA clay tigers, PNAs etc.

I made a few trips to the North West in the early 1980s, mostly to Warrington, but here is a train passing Lancaster in 1984. 

No. 85026 passes Lancaster northbound (?) with a train of tube wagons, 10/7/84.

I took more at Warrington, here is one from my Flickr collection, 86004 heads north through Warrington Bank Quay with a short vacuum braked service, a highfit, then probably VEV or VMV vanwides, and perhaps a couple of vac braked coil carriers at the rear? 23/3/82.

cheers

There is a lot of good advice already on here, and I would agree that getting hold of a track plan booklet,

or two, would be a good idea. Choose a smaller plan you like the look of then you can let it grow into the space you have.

One plan from C J Freezers '60 Plans for Small Railways' comes to mind.

Plan No.20s is drawn for only 6' x 4' for a single circuit  dock layout system which has a number of short sidings spread around.

With the space you have available you could recreate something more ambitious with two circuits.

One outer circuit could have a couple of short passenger stations with a couple of sidings to stable stock or DMUs.

A separate inner circuit easier to reach could be principally to serve the various freight sidings which you can shunt wagons, a connection between the two circuits would allow locos to access the loco shed/siding. A small yard acting as a scenic fiddle yard would give someone the chance to indulge in shunting while two trains circle round.

Good luck

Cheers

The Ilfracombe Railway was originally built as a light railway, and remained so until 1887. The Ilfracombe Goods 0-6-0 tender engines were built by Beyer Peacock to their standard light 0-6-0 design, which was why they were found suitable for later use on other light railways.

Barnstaple Junction to Ilfracombe is about 15 miles, and with steep gradients, so the additional water capacity of a tender engine would be useful. 

cheers

That looks a lot of fun, you have certainly captured the prototypes.

At exhibitions I sometimes come across a couple of Lego built layouts, they always attract plenty of attention.

Well done

cheers

Have you had a look through Flickr?

A quick browse found 43164 at Leeds in 8/3/86

43166 at Blackwell 10/8/85

cheers

Like Rugd1022 I think I would like to concentrate on railway locations with family connections. Some of the places I knew but after they were in decline, or closed. I think a 24 exposure film, used wisely, would do for each day out.

1. Make trips again with my dad in the mid 1960s,  I would pay more attention to the Western Region hydraulics at work in Devon. We might fit in a trip to Waterloo to catch some of the steam I just about remember, and I might bump into Rugd1022. 

2. Spend some time with my grandad when he was a platform inspector at Exeter Central in the early 1960s. Also maybe ask him which of the signal boxes he had worked in the past were most interesting in case I had the chance for another day out. I am sure he could arrange for a proper shed visit to Exmouth Junction. 

3. Visit my great great grandma and see what a LSWR railway crossing keepers life was like in the late 1800s, perhaps include a train trip to Sidmouth.

4. Some of my mothers side of the family hailed from the Teign Valley. The Teign Valley line closed before I was born, so perhaps a trip along the line riding with the guard of one of the goods trains, stopping at various stations and quarries along the way. It would have to be before WWII before traffic tailed off.

cheers

6 hours ago, DCB said:

Great Shame, I had really outstanding service from there. I try to call in when I am in Devon  but Paignton is not on a main route so means a detour (Unlike the Buckfastleigh shop just off th main road)  I guess future prospects  for modelling with the cost of inventory  escalating have put off potential buyers.   And laziness, I'm 10 miles from a major box shifter but buy 90%of my models on line  . There is a sewing shop near Poundland in Teignmouth  which sells model railway items, they shut at 4pm today and I arrived at 10 past

Sew Much More on the pedestrianised part of Bank Street in Teignmouth sells a varying selection of 2nd hand model railway items including coaches and wagons, and some buildings and scenic items and model buses. There is also a selection of 2nd hand railway books. The items are sold to raise funds for the Totnes Station group on the South Devon Railway.

cheers