Rivercider

On 14/01/2024 at 13:04, Miss Prism said:

When we say 'mixed traffic', is that our modern perspective being applied to something historic?  Or, putting the question another way, when did the prototype first start adopting the term?

 

I have no idea when the term was first adopted, but there must have been numerous loco classes that were intended for mixed traffic use built in the late C19th.

Locomotives of the LSWR by D L Bradley describes the A12 'Jubilee' 0-4-2s of 1887. The LSWR did not have many heavy freight trains. But did have many branch pick-up freight services, for which a large 0-6-0 was not required. The Jubilees were designed for secondary main line goods and passenger services, and handled the fast goods services to and from Southampton and the West of England.

I would have thought that the later smaller LSWR 4-4-0 classes were considered to be for mixed traffic including the K10 4-4-0 'Small Hoppers', and L11 4-4-0 'Large Hoppers', particularly in the western part of the LSWR.

cheers

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Did the SR ever work to Chard Town then, or did that service cease while it was still LSWR? That was the bit I was unsure about. Goods to the old LSWR station?

If I understand it correctly the LSWR operated trains to the joint station and it still retained a service to the old terminus at Chard Town.

This was not viable so in 1916 the LSWR and GWR had discussions about the situation. The GWR agreed to work the whole branch to Chard Junction. Chard Town (the LSWR station) closed on 30th Dec 1916, as did the spur platform which was adjacent on the line to Chard Joint.

From 1st Jan 1917 the GWR operated from Chard Joint to Chard Junction, initially with a separate set of coaches, but after a while it was worked as an extension of the GWR Taunton to Chard service. 

I assume, (dangerous I know), that from 1917 the LSWR, and then SR, only worked goods services from Chard Junction to Chard Town (goods), and Chard Central (as the Joint station had been renamed). Various SR classes were authorised to work as far as Chard Central. The SR did work a very occasional excursion service to/from Chard in the late 1930.

Edit - Reading in another couple of books it would seem that the GWR (and then WR) worked all services along the line from 1916 onwards. The exception was summer 1938 when the SR worked summer Sunday services (there was no Sunday service in that time).  There was a list of SR loco classes permitted to work to Chard Central.

In 1964 the line from Taunton to Chard Central closed. So until final closure in 1966 remaining freight traffic at Chard Town (goods) and Chard Central was worked by Yeovil Junction crews from  the Chard Junction end.

cheers

5 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

Hi,

 

You caught my interest with "Chard Town"! was it one the places where two companies met? or was it one of the places that changed hands to "Western Region". Again showing my ignorance about things. 

 

Cambridge always fascinated me, it was possible to get a train to St. Pancras (LMS). Kings Cross or Liverpool Street (LNER) Three London Termini! I imagine the ticket office must have been a crazy place to work! I understand that pre 1923 there were separate facilities for each and only one long platform!

 

Kind Regards

David.

For a small line the history is quite complicated. I have the book 'Working the Chard Branch' by D Phillips and R Eaton-Lacey which is very interesting.

The LSWR opened a branch from Chard Junction to Chard Town in 1863.

The Bristol and Exeter broad gauge branch from Taunton to Chard opened in 1866.

Chard Joint station was half a mile north of the LSWR Chard Town. To reach it LSWR trains backed out of Chard Town then carried on northwards. At Chard Joint the LSWR used the south end bay.

The GWR took over the B&E in 1876, and the Chard branch was converted to standard gauge in 1891.

From  1896 the LSWR station at Chard Town came under control of the GWR and in 1916 the former LSWR station closed ,but was retained as a goods depot. GWR trains then worked right through to Chard Junction where the platform was separate from the main lines.

cheers

On 13/01/2024 at 11:15, Gilbert said:

Penmaenbach likewise....I think I've got everything.....

I enjoyed the show, and it was good to see the selection of Speedlink wagonry once more., and thanks for taking the time to chat about the layout,

cheers

On 13/01/2024 at 10:59, TimC said:

Looking forward to the show tomorrow.

 

St Oswalds is all packed up ready to go.

 

 

If you pop by, please say hello.  

I was one who stopped by to say hello, having not seen this thread before this morning.

We chatted about your Ruston shunter among other things.

I enjoyed St Oswalds, and thought the whole show was good.

Thanks

Cheers

This is an interesting thread, with a lot of useful replies.

The three main constituent parts of the SR each had their own characteristics and requirements, so their loco fleets had evolved differently.

The SECR had always been short of money, so even the main lines were not of the highest standard and had weight restrictions. The D and E class 4-4-0s only weighed just over 50 tons (tender excluded). It was some years after the grouping before the bridges had been strengthened to take heavier locos. There was also the Tonbridge to Hastings route with a restricted loading gauge that prohibited many classes of loco and stock.

London to Brighton is about 50 miles, so for the LBSCR tank engines had enough coal and water capacity to work many services, and the few tender locos did not require large tenders. Hence the turntables on that line did not need to be long.

The LSWR had longer main line runs, to Bournemouth and Weymouth, Salisbury and Exeter. They required larger rugged locos and tenders with a larger coal and water capacity. Many of the larger heavier locos were as a consequence banned from working west of Exeter.

This meant that the three different loco fleets were not initially easily interchanged between areas once the Southern Railway had been created.

The ongoing electrification schemes meant that the SR built almost no new tank locos (the ill-fated 'River' tanks were an exception). This meant that many tank locos originally built for London suburban services were displaced, and many found themselves far from home.

Therefore on the LSWR many of the O2s found work on branch lines in the West Country, and Isle of Wight (where they were modified with larger bunkers). Many M7s also worked in the South West. The weight and curvature restrictions of the Lyme Regis branch meant a longer life for a few Adams Radial 4-4-2Ts after several other classes including Terriers, O2s, and LBSCR D1s were found wanting. Then there were the three Beattie 2-4-0WT Well Tanks that worked the Wenfordbridge branch. No doubt also on the SECR and LBSCR tanks locos from the London area later worked further out from the capital.

cheers     

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Given the youth hostel is in the former goods shed and goods sheds require some form of road access from a public highway then the lack of a footbridge is hardly important in the overall scheme of things.

There is separate road access to the Youth Hostel under the line at the east end of the station, so I agree that lack of a footbridge is not the end of the world.

The station could also function quite well enough without the buffet, shop, restored booking office, and museum. The presence of those things does however make visiting Okehampton a more pleasant experience, I do hope the footbridge can be restored.

cheers 

42 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

A footbridge without a roof is still a footbridge ........... or are other structural issues suspected perhaps ?

I don't know about any other structural issues with the footbridge.

I agree that a footbridge without a roof still does the job, but to some extent Okehampton Station

is a destination in its own right.

On the main platform 3 is the Bulleid Buffet, and the DRA have their shop. The former ticket office has been retained as a heritage display.

Over the footbridge on platform 1/2 is the DRA museum. Also the former goods shed is now in use as a Youth Hostel.

The station itself is the starting point for a number of walks, and cyclists use it to and from the Granite Way. Hence I think there is more chance that the footbridge roof will be restored in some form.

cheers

32 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Perhaps they should hand over rebuilding of the bridge to one of the preservation groups. They have done magnificent jobs on footbridge reconstruction in numerous locations. Broadway on the GWSR is a great example.

 

Yours, Mike.

The Dartmoor Railway Association are still involved at Okehampton Station, there are some details of the incident on their website.

Okehampton station is therefore something of a hybrid station, part National Rail, part heritage.  Platforms 1 and 2 are currently closed, with no access to the museum rooms.  Since the footbridge is the link from platform 3 where the DRA have their shop in the main station building I suspect replacement of the roof is more likely to happen than might be the case in many other locations.

cheers

56 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Depends how you define West Country. The original allocations were mostly to Landore and Canton, but some went to Bristol Bath Road and a few to Old Oak Common, which were fairly quickly moved on to Bristol.

Yes I realised once I typed that. South West, and West Country are somewhat open to interpretation,

while the Western Region West of England Division extended from Penzance to Barnt Green! 

cheers

Many thanks for all the replies, very interesting.

I guess I was aware of the existence of diesel hydraulic shunting locos, but had never given them much thought before.

I now realise there were several different types.

North British 0-4-0dh D2700 - D2707 200hp from 1953

North British 0-4-0dh D2708 - D2780 225hp from 1957

North British 0-4-0dh D2900 - D2910 330hp from 1958

Yorkshire Class 02 0-4-0dh D2850 - D2869  from 1960.

The class 14 D9500 - D9555 entered service from 1964, but none of them worked in the West Country as far as I know, despite the WR having taken over former SR lines west of Salisbury which brought many hydraulics onto former SR territory. 

By early 1960 the Western Region dieselisation of the West Country was proceeding with 34 main line diesels in traffic at Laira by the end of January 1960. These were the 14 pilot scheme locos, and 20 more from the production series, numbers being D600-D604, D800-D815, and D6300-D6312. At that date there was still plenty of traditional railway shunting work required, Penzance Truro St Blazey and Laira sheds would have had quite a few shunting duties between them, but no diesel hydraulic shunters despite there being several classes that could have been used.

cheers 

1 hour ago, melmoth said:

 

I think the wheelbase of the class 14 would have made that unworkable

You have joined two sentences together there, one where I agreed that I was not considering class 14s as shunting locos in the traditional sense.  I then postulated that there would not have been much requirement for the small diesel hydraulic shunters in the early days of dieselisation, as built by North British in 1957.

The class 14s did not appear until seven years later, in 1964, by which time they were already obsolete, and in any case were never expected to shunt in yards or locations with tight curves.

cheers

The map section that covers Exeter and the Exmouth branch does not show the halts at Mount Pleasant Road,

Whipton Bridge, and Lions Holt, which all opened in January 1906, so it must have been drawn earlier than that.

Edit - and the same section of map shows that the Budleigh Salterton Railway had been extended to Exmouth,

the extension opened in June 1903.

So the map appears to date from between June 1903 and January 1906.

Any other offers?

Second edit! - The map shows Bere Alston to Callington branch, which opened in March 1908. I now wonder if the 

halts in the Exeter area opened in 1906, (and others in 1907 and 1908) are not shown on the map, which must date after March 1908.

cheers

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I assume you're considering Class 14 as light freight locos rather than shunters?

Yes, I did think about the Class 14s, but you are right that I was really thinking about shunting locos in the traditional sense.

There would not have been a requirement for very many small shunters in the early stages of the dieselisation,

but Laira could perhaps have found work for a few in the docks rather than Class 03s.  

cheers

When the decision was taken to trial diesel hydraulics on the Western Region as part of the Modernisation Plan

were there ever any diesel hydraulic shunting locomotives allocated to the Western Region? 

North British built 0-4-0dh shunting locos in 1957, later numbered D2708-D2780.

They seem to have been mostly in Scotland, which is logical keeping them near where they were constructed. I am not aware that any came to the Western Region, but why not? On the other hand since diesel electric shunting locos had already proved themselves why build a diesel hydraulic shunter?

cheers

Todays lunchtime arrival at Teignmouth was FRISIAN RIVER.

FRISIAN RIVER alongside at Teignmouth shortly after arrival from Erith. Unloading had already commenced, though I do not know

what the load was, (another forum suggested meal from ADM Erith).

cheers 

We completed a house move to Teignmouth before Christmas, since then I have kept a look out for shipping arrivals.

BOTHNIA FIN arrived on 30/12/2023 from Ijmuiden and has spent new year at Teignmouth.

BOTHNIA FIN at Teignmouth 31/12/2023

cheers

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... though some might prefer it framing a Bulleid Pacific on a through train ......... !

I was born a bit too late for that.

If the SR plan to dieselise the Western District had come to fruition this might have become an everyday sight in the 1960s

Okehampton looking west 27/8/2017

cheers

How it should look

Okehampton station 21/7/2019

cheers

14 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

and we need something to promote first!

It was a great friendly show with a cracking selection of exhibits and no doubt will live again..

Chris

Indeed.

I have ventured under the Severn several times for what is always an enjoyable friendly show. I will await a future announcement.

cheers

On 30/12/2023 at 08:47, Dunsignalling said:

And both SR locos and stock worked across from Barnstaple to Taunton.

 

The GWR/SR relationship in that area seems to have been amicable, at least in part because many of their customers would need to use both systems to get where they wanted. Hostile rivalry would have been counterproductive. 

 

The GWR and SR did adopt a 'non aggression' pact regarding services to North Devon, which subsequently hindered both of them. On the SR route from Exeter to Barnstaple the double line only extended north as far as Copplestone, and then from Umberleigh to Barnstaple Junction, and at most stations on the single line section the loops were not long enough to cross two lengthy services when the summer timetable was in operation.

I do not think there was a regular exchange working of GWR and SR locos over the opposing company route (as occurred between Exeter and Plymouth for decades). I have seen a photo of a T9 and SR stock at Taunton, which I believe was a regular working, possibly for a season or two in the 1950s?

cheers    

19 hours ago, PerthBox said:

When I worked in Control we used to very occasionally get requests from the FOCs to input a dummy VSTP schedule to allow ‘lost’ locos or wagons to be transferred correctly on TOPS. They would consist it and put in departure/arrival times as if it had run. 

One way to update a wagon that had arrived in your area without it being reported on TOPS was to ask TOC (TOPS Operations Control?) to do the update, but they would ask questions why the reports were missed. The other way to do it once TOPS offices were no longer permitted to create their own train schedule  was to find an unused schedule for on-track plant that had arrived from the area where the misreported wagon had come from. We would 'depart' the train on behalf of the sending TRA, then after arrival use the DB work performed procedure to report the wagon arriving in our area.

We did use the AE claim wagon procedure. In the early days this was apparently used a lot especially when only part of the network had been cut-over to TOPS. Later on I think the AE procedure was withdrawn?

cheers

2 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

 

Sounds like we could both go back and do it all again at the drop of a hat !!

Seem to  remember a mod being introduced that on the BM arrival line, after the arrival time you could put 6 skips in then letter D which would save the DB/TF inputs. 

 

When I was on  my basic TOPS course at Webb House, the instructor,  Jack Jones gave us an easy way to remember the arrival inputs -

BM - bloody marvellous the trains arrived.

TF - thank f%&k there's a loco

DB - damm and blast wagons as well.

 

Jack Jones! He told us he had hollow legs in a challenge for us to get him drunk.

I did my 2 week TOPS basic course at Webb House in the 2 weeks leading up to xmas 1978. Then returned for the TOPS advanced course in the week leading up to Xmas 1981.

Edit - and I remember the simplification amendment to the BM arrival input.

cheers

18 hours ago, HillsideDepot said:

Returning to the ferries, classing them as a "loco" makes sense as they are moving wagons from one TOPS location to another, just like a loco. Presumably wagons moving via the ferry were allocated to a "train" to allow TOPS to correctly locate and relocate them.

Yes, that was my understanding. A 'train' was required to update records when a wagon moved from one TOPS Responsibility Area (TRA) to another.

Each train on TOPS required three inputs, the wagon consist (AS input), power consist (A7 input), departure time (BN? input). All three computer entries are required in order to generate a consist at the 'receiving'  yard.

On arrival at the next yard the TOPS office responsible also makes three inputs, arrival time  (BM), work performed input - which confirms all wagons have arrived, and power work performed (TF) which confirms the loco(s) have arrived OK, 

cheers

Here is a 'dropped catch' taking place at Blue Anchor.

The dropped token fell between the train and platform, and took some time to be recovered. Then a signal failure further along the line meant delay at Crowcombe Heathfield until well after dark.  29/10/2017

cheers