Rivercider

Hi Rob. It was good to see Sheep Dip today at Nailsea, it is a lovely little layout.

I enjoyed the show, and hope to catch up again at the SWAG do.

cheers

On 22/03/2024 at 08:31, AMac said:

Hi all, (a bit of radio silence on my part!)

 

Many thanks to you all for all your advice, information and inspiration!  It's great to have the wealth of experience and knowledge that you all share.

 

Regarding the original question what freight trains to run, I will look through some of the source material suggested , re-read the information above including the workings already mentioned and think this through a bit more.

 

In the meantime this is roughly what I'm thinking;

1. MGR (already committed)
2. steel (probably a mixture of 8 - 9 BAA's/BBA's)
3. Speedlink (possibly a mixture OBA's, VBA's, VEA,s and maybe a couple of TTA's)
4. Vacuum braked service (already have a VEV, VVV and an SOV so will add to that)
5. Ballast with Sealions and Catfish (I think catfish were more prevalent on the midland region)
6. Freightliner (already committed)
7. Chemicals
8. Other/s as I get side tracked ...

I have a CCT, couple of full brakes and a Property Board GUV and was thinking about some sort of parcels but I'll see how that goes. I like the idea of a nuclear flask - even as part of another services as appears to have occurred.

 

I'll provide an update once I've once I've worked out what I want to run. (Still more than happy to receive more advice!)

 

Cheers

I think you have covered the freight side pretty well there, those are all trains I remember from my visits.

Regarding the nuclear flask traffic travelling on ordinary services. I worked in Bristol Area Freight Centre from 1978, so knew about the flask traffic specifically to/from Bridgwater (for Hinkley Point), and also for Oldbury/Berkeley which was handled on local trips working from Gloucester New Yard.

Here is photo from 1980 at Bridgwater of 7M22 Exeter Riverside to Bescot. This train would have also called at Gloucester New Yard to attach flasks from Berkeley.

Departing Bridgwater behind 47335. Behind the loco are empty gunpowder vans, then three highfits loaded with ball clay. Then some vanfits and the flask for Sellafield. Note that barrier requirements meant that the flask could not be marshalled next to the loco or brake van in those days. 12/9/80. 

Earlier than that the train from Exeter Riverside ran through to Warrington as 7M67, later curtailed to Bescot as 7M22..

Passing Bristol Temple Meads behind 31254 7M22 an instamatic snap with two flasks in the formation, 17/1/79.

cheers

I don't know the Bodmin area well, but was there ever any railway proposal to create a triangular junction south of Bodmin General to permit through running without reversal in the station? Is the geography of the area suitable that a chord line might have been built before the area was built up? 

cheers

In my opinion many stations are longer than most of the trains that call there, my memory starts from the late 1960s

when there were many cutbacks and closures taking place. 

I only have a glorified shunting plank, and only operate 2 coach or 2 car DMUs, but I deliberately included a platform 4 coaches long that dwarfs the trains. 

With the space you have if you hope to run a loco plus 4 coaches then a platform capable of handling loco plus 6 would not be unrealistic if you could fit it in. You could also include a second smaller station or halt with shorter platforms where only short local trains call,

cheers 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

....... I thought that you could only go to Newquay on an all-inclusive coach holiday; I can't imagine why else you'd go there!

 

Anyway, Newquay is to become the northern hub of - 'The Cornish Metro', tah-rah!!!

 

No, really - HS2 money! A vital link between Newquay and Falmouth, which will transform Cornish public transport, (and cost silly money)!

 

As an interviewee memorably said on local TV - "Why anyone from Newquay would want to go to Falmouth, and vice versa, is beyond me"!

 

CJI.

 

 

 

 

I like Newquay, and have stayed there several times in recent years. We have used the train to get there for both day trips and a short hotel break.

I think the main benefits of the proposed Cornish Metro are the intended improved journeys between Falmouth/Truro and St Austell, and also the improved service over the Newquay branch. I agree that there are unlikely to be many through journeys made of the whole north/south route. At present the Newquay branch service is two hourly. In the summer timetable when IETS work a couple of return trips those trains run non-stop over the branch, which means the service provided to intermediate stations is virtually useless - I know as we sometimes stay in Bugle, where there is a lot of new build housing. A lot of hotel and bar staff who work in Newquay cannot afford to live there, so a decent train service will be of use,

I did see some of the local TV when the proposed service was announced, and found it strange that it seemed as though some folk of a position of influence in Cornwall would rather not receive the investment. 

cheers 

If in this parallel universe passenger services to Padstow had survived the Beeching cuts the line would have been heavily rationalised.

The former LSWR route via Launceston closed and passenger services formed by DMUs from Bodmin Road and Bodmin General.

I don't see freight traffic surviving to Padstow, but Wadebridge did remain open for freight, and this may well have lasted until the early/mid 1980s, handling bagged fertiliser and seasonal beet pulp nuts and seed potatoes. Then perhaps a financial case might have been made to upgrade the Wenfordbridge  branch to handle CDAs when the clayhoods were life expired, so clay traffic might have run until relatively recently.

We can dream

cheers

12 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Really ? ........ the LSWR and Southern managed to get to Padstow without reversing at Bodmin !

I think that had Padstow managed to retain a rail connection it was always going to be via Bodmin Road, and Bodmin General. The LSWR route to Padstow via Launceston and Wadebridge had been on borrowed time.

Bude would have been a more likely rail survivor in my opinion.

cheers

2 hours ago, Peak said:

How much of the area would be reduced? Would East Yard and Fisherton Yard still be there?

In the early 1970s there would still be a lot of Fisherton Yard and the East Yard in use. Have a look on Flickr for example.

I took photos later in the early 1980s.

Here is a view looking into Fisherton Yard with the pilot 08658 stabled between duties. By this date the yard was used mainly to stable the exhibition coaches I believe. 23/4/80

The East Yard was still busy into the 1980s, it handled ballast trains to/from Meldon Quarry, and also Speedlink traffic though in the 1970s it would have been busier, there are a number of MOD depots in the area that saw a lot of traffic.

Looking from the platform towards the East Yard, 7V00 for Meldon Quarry approaches behind 47152, 17/7/85.

For a layout set around 1970 these yards would be active, but in order to make it fit in a reasonable space  I would leave them out and imagine them to be off scene, or heavily rationalise them, just as the plan posted by Cruachan.

cheers      

25 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

Back in December 1991, RAIL 163 carried a suggested contemporary plan for Salisbury station in 4mm scale that, with a good deal of compression and compromise, worked out extremely similar to your suggestions above.

 

The plan wasn't to scale, but the text stated that it was intended to fit in a space 15' x 9', with maximum train lengths of Loco+6 coaches for Waterloo - Exeter services.

That is uncanny, I had never seen that plan before, but is pretty much as I envisaged. I think I might have left out Fisherton Yard to make the board narrower, perhaps just retaining one road there. One other thing I don't like there is a departure from the up bay runs wrong road into the fiddle yard, but otherwise that looks a good plan

cheers 

Salisbury has always been an interesting place but even if someone had plenty of space, time, and money then compromises would still have to be made as explained above.

By leaving out the former GWR station / coal yard / exhibition carriage sidings to the north then the width of the layout would be manageable. To me the spirit of Salisbury includes the bay platforms, particularly platform 6 at the east/London end, which would make the layout very long, though the severe curve at that end can be used to advantage. By leaving out the former steam shed at the west end, and Salisbury East Yard at the London end then it might be possible to recreate something of the character of the place.

In his booklet 'Track Plans' CJ Freezer shows how he was able to produce plans for a version of Exeter Central. In real life the station area including carriage sidings at each end stretches for about 40 feet in 00, pretty much straight too. He was able to produce a plan that fitted into a 25 foot x 10 foot room that kept much of the original, though at the expense of leaving out some sidings to reduce width. He was able to produce an even smaller plan  to fit a 15' x 8' room that kept many of the main features. Getting hold of a copy of the booklet would give you an idea of what might realistically be fitted into a space,

Edit - I have a few  memories of travelling through Salisbury at the end of the steam era, but more of the early diesel era. If I wanted to recreate services through Salisbury in 1970 I would accept a compromise of a loco plus 6 coaches for the Waterloo - Exeter line. A loco plus 5 coaches for Cardiff - Portsmouth, A loco plus 4 coaches for Salisbury - Waterloo semi-fasts. A 2-car DEMU for the Salisbury - Southampton stoppers, and a 2-car DMU for the Salisbury - Bristol locals. Even then the station length is going to  be about 10' including platform 6 at the east end.

To do justice to a version of a much reduced Salisbury a 15' x 8' room might do it, a double track circuit with fiddle yard on the opposite side. A Warship or two for the Waterloo - Exeter, a Hymek or two for the Cardiff-Portsmouth and freight off the WR, and a class 33 or two for the Waterloo - Salisbury semi-fasts and ballast trains from Meldon. A DEMU and DMU for local passenger would then be a basis for a train service.

At a push perhaps 5 coaches would suffice for the Waterloo - Exeter with 4 for the Pompeys, and 3 for the semi-fasts.

Good luck. 

cheers

By 1830 there must have been quite a lot of knowledge of the geography or topography, particularly in the affluent areas of Britain where the first railways were built. 

There were a thousand Turnpike Trusts controlling 18,000 miles of road, also 4,000 miles of canals. The first OS maps were available around 1801, with the 6 inch to the mile survey had commenced (starting in Ireland in 1824).

The promoters of the Great Western for example knew which places they wanted to connect so looking at the basic maps of the day a number of potential routes would suggest themselves. Presumably at the local level Brunel or his fellow engineers would have employed someone with local knowledge to show him around?

cheers

1 hour ago, bristolian said:

Hello Kevin, I hope you're keeping well. I'm just working my way slowly through what the various figures in the columns mean. I've deciphered the Vehicle Number (easy!), Type, Length, Weight, Brake Force, and whether loaded or not (that won't particularly matter in my case).
I'm entering in a list of the various wagon sightings that I still have (after losing my notebooks many years ago), and adding their relevant details as per the above.
Once I've done that, I need to figure out how to provide a a way of adding a randomly-generated list of wagons into a Train List, and have that file calculate the weight, length and brake force...

Very Best Wishes, Bob.

Some of the other codes that appeared on TOPS train consists included the three character shunting tag (eg 760 for Severn Tunnel Junction), the two character axle box type (I think 72 or 73 were either oil box or roller bearing, not sure which). An A9 or J6 wagon enquiry would also give things like date due ppm (planned preventive maintenance), or the date of last repair, the type of last 6 repairs done. Also the 4 character wagon pool allocated to (if any),  and also the last wagon release code and by which TOPS office the release code was carried out. There was also detail for the actual weight of contents, heaviest lift (if applicable), and number of wagon sheets (though I never remember this used in our area),

cheers 

2 hours ago, bristolian said:

This is superb - it's given me impetus to try this in Train Simulator. I haven't (as yet) figured out how to create the various files I need, but I'll have a bash :).

I have a small handful of old TOPS printouts from my days in the Bristol Area Freight Centre. I can also remember several of the TOPS printouts, so might be able to interpret some of the information if a scan of a printout is posted.

On a similar subject, being able to produce a realistic traffic flow for a particular yard or location is somewhere between a science and an art.

cheers 

Network Rail will have control about what happens inside the railway fence. and no doubt in places will have influence

about what happens outside the railway fence.

Along the South Devon sea wall section it has been mentioned before that it is not just storm damage from the sea that is the problem, the red sandstone cliffs inland of the railway have been a continual problem too. There is currently work taking place on the cliff above Kennaway Tunnel at Dawlish, Parsons Tunnel rock shelter has been extended, and in recent years a lot of work has taken place on the sea wall section from Parsons Tunnel to Teignmouth. There is a combination of walling, fencing, and detection equipment in use. 

Last week we were walking along the coast at Shaldon which has similar geology to the railway sea wall section, particularly the section between Teignmouth and Sprey Point. On the Ness Beach we saw some recent falls close up. In several places small waterfalls were dropping onto the beach, and in places were there had been a recent slip the liquid red clay was still oozing onto the beach. 

This is Ness Beach looking east, Parsons Tunnel passes through Hole Head which is the headland in the distance. 3/3/2024

A close up of the recent slip on Ness Beach, the muddy water, or liquid clay, was running down in a couple of places. 3/3/2024

Mud running out onto Ness Beach 6/3/2024.

Obviously the section of cliffs behind the railway is better managed than this, but it is not cheap, or 100% successful, so I think calls for a real long term solution there will not go away.

cheers

In the late 1970s I recall a one-off consignment of low level nuclear waste from Hinkley Point which went by rail

from Bridgwater to Sharpness loaded in pipe wagons. I think the waste was loaded in drums.

Also from the late 1970s and again involving Sharpness I remember a train (or two) of wood pulp loaded in tubes from Sharpness to 

Marsh Ponds in Bristol for St Annes Board Mills.

There was also a pool of tube wagons to convey new concrete sleepers from the Dow-Mac plant at Quedgeley to the Pre-Assembly Depot (PAD)  at Taunton Fairwater, and probably also to the PAD at Radyr,

cheers 

I went out for a walk today with family, knowing that there was a vessel expected to arrive at Teignmouth.

The  SEA CHARENTE was en-route from Erith, I don't know the cargo, but possibly animal feed from rape seed cake?

The Teignmouth pilot boat the SYD HOOK is temporarily unavailable, so the port tug/dredger TEIGN C was also acting as pilot boat. We were across at Shaldon so I had a good view of proceedings.   

The TEIGN C heads out of the Teign estuary 6/3/2024

TEIGN C leads SEA CHARENTE towards the Teign estuary, note the narrow entrance channel, which is regularly dredged. 6/3/2024

SEA CHARENTE (1996/2100dwt) 6/3/2024

SEA CHARENTE makes the starboard turn into the harbour. This is one of the smaller vessels that now arrive, some are 3800dwt. 6/3/2024.

By the time we had crossed back to Teignmouth on the ferry unloading of SEA CHARENTE had already commenced. 6/3/2024.

cheers

Since moving to Teignmouth I have been keeping a look out for shipping arrivals.

Reading up about Teignmouth it seems that the port has always had a problem with silting both

of the approach channel and the berths. As the size of coastal ships has increased so arrivals

tend to be planned around the spring tides.

The middle of February saw few arrivals, then the spell of windy weather saw 25-30 vessels sheltering

in Lyme Bay including three inbound for Teignmouth, all had to wait for two or three days before they were able to berth.

Once the weather improved this meant that the berths were all occupied for the next few days.

On 27th February the berths at the Eastern Quay and Western Quay were all occupied, there was another vessel RHODANUS waiting out in the bay.

   This view is taken from the New Quay looking up the river Teign. The TEIGN C is the port tug which also carries out dredging with a plough of the approach channel. The ATLANTA II tied up at the Fish Quay was an fishing  vessel arrival from Bridlington. At the Eastern Quay is MARLEY which had spent at least two nights waiting out in Lyme Bay. On the Western Quay are AMADEUS DIAMOND, with CLARITY astern, both of these vessels had arrived in the bay after MARLEY, but were handled first. Out of sight to the left was the dredger CAPALL MARA. Once AMADEUS DIAMOND had departed MARLEY took the berth for loading with ball clay. 27/2/2024

A view from the town side looking between the warehouses towards Shaldon (not Starcross!). This is the brief view of shipping in the port that is visible from the train.

At the Western Quay is AMADEUS DIAMOND. The West of England main line to Newton Abbot is this side of the fence in the foreground 

cheers 

Here is a terrible instamatic snap from 1976. If it is the same signboard then the sign later altered.

Edit - I see you have found other images with different signage.

Taken before the introduction of the new electric service, four class 313 units are stabled. 9/10/76.

cheers

1 hour ago, Camps Junction said:

Hi all shortly will be moving to new house where I will be starting on a new layout, I want to do Era 7 Didcot station and junction ( not as far as the old power station), and hope to get as much as possible into 20x12 N gauge but can find no track plans for this, While most of it’s still there apart from carriage section which I do have most of the rest has 30yrs+ of growth over it ,Even with close ups on google earth very little is now visible,If anyone can help with this would be a great help pics or plans , Thanks Drew.

That would be quite an ambitious project. BR Era 7 would be 1971-1986 I think? A lot changed during that time, but searching Flick for example should get you a lot of useful information. I made a few visits there back then.

The view from the station platform across the yard with the tracks curving away towards Oxford.  17/11/82

And a later view, taken I think from a footbridge at the west end of the station? (it was a long time ago).

A view looking northwards with a DMU arriving from the Oxford direction. The civil engineers tip sidings on the left in the triangle were a fairly recent addition I think.

Good luck

cheers 

Although Teignmouth lost the rail connection in the 1960s the port is still active.

It seems that the regular vessels are in the 2500dwt to 3800dwt range. There are four or five mobile cranes in use.

Here are two of the wheeled cranes on the West Quay at Teignmouth 22/2/2024,

The crane on the right has a raised position for the operator, loading FRISIAN RIVER built 2007 2620dwt. 5/1/2023

cheers

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Ah, no the real Bristol Queen

 

Sorry. My error.

This is the Bristol Queen I am familiar with in Weston. She used to do occasional 'trips around the bay' and visits to Steepholm and Flatholm. Sadly she has been going nowhere for some time.

From Flickr by Thomas Harper 11/3/2016,

cheers

On 22/02/2024 at 22:03, johnofwessex said:

Anybody fancy some engineering of the proper sort?

 

https://savethepuffer.co.uk/introducing-our-first-training-course-in-traditional-steam-engineering-operations/

 

I dont know why you need a course for that sort of thing, I was just told I was in charge of the engine room and that as I had seen the engine room of the Bristol Queen as a 4 year old that would be more than sufficient

I don't think any previous experience is required to be in charge of the engine room of the Bristol Queen at present.

Sadly she  is on dry land beside Weston-super-Mare station, more or less where the former gasworks siding were,

I have no idea what the  future holds.

cheers

On 25/02/2024 at 16:08, 31A said:

Not a large town, but Gobowen station had a coal yard that was served until relatively recently using air braked hopper wagons; I’m not sure when it actually finished.

Good shout. I had forgotten that Gobowen, (and Shrewsbury) continued to receive coal after the Network Coal services finished.

There are some photos of coal traffic as late as 2000/02 on Flickr. 

This photo by John Catterson of 37896 14/2/2002.

And a photo of the facilities at Gobowen

Gobowoen yard photo by Minfforrdd Ken 26/2/2000

cheers

28 minutes ago, H2O said:

Western Fuel Co(?) were operating behind what is now M Shed museum within about 1/2 mile of the city centre in Bristol up until 1990ish. Rail served via the old swing bridge, spike island from transfer sidings off the old Portishead branch IIRC. The transfer to the coal yard was done with their own shunter. 'Famously' the Peckett Henbury, run by Bristol Harbour Railway, was used for this commercial traffic when the diesel shunter was under repair.  Not 100% sure what their market was but guessing mainly for domestic use.

Yes it was Western Fuel who had the CCD at Wapping Wharf, they also had depots at Filton, Taunton, and Exmouth Junction, and possibly elsewhere.

Western Fuel took over from BR for the operation of the Bristol Harbour line from Ashton Junction to Wapping Wharf in 1977.

Here is the former PBA No.30 Hudswell Clark shunter hauling HTVs of coal from Ashton Junction to Wapping Wharf, 11/2/80

After the vacuum braked network had been closed domestic coal for both Wapping Wharf and Filton CCD came on Speedlink services from Severn Tunnel Junction  to Stoke Gifford Yard, from there local trips were made to Ashton Junction and Filton.

Here 6B18 Severn Tunnel to Stoke Gifford Speedlink feeder service arrives at Stoke Gifford behind 47315. The loco will run round then shunt the train in Stoke Gifford Downside, The HEAs were loaded with domestic coal for Wapping Wharf and Filton, 10/7/85.

I believe Wapping Wharf closed first with the remaining domestic coal handled at Filton, that also ceased by around 1993.

cheers

Poor as England were they still might (should?) have had a losing bonus point. When Feyi-Waboso crossed the try line

he went straight to ground. I thought in that moment he could have taken a step or two towards the posts, virtually without risk. Had he done so the conversion would surely have been good. Oh well.

cheers