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So we shouldn't get our hopes up then.

Yes i am sure if you take all the arms of their business into consideration, however amongst the more discerning railway modeller (for want of a better phrase) I suspect they are now trailing a distant fourth, and are in danger of loosing credibility in that market if the P2 gets a similar panning.

I suspect Hornby will cross the rubicon when the P2 hits the streets. They cannot have failed to have seen this thread and have remained very tight lipped thus far, I suspect there is either much scratching of heads or keeping them firmly buried in the sand. Either way for a hobby that normally prides itself on close and good manufacturer-customer relationship it does not inspire confidence. Simon Kohler has always been approachable even if he has the art of saying lots while revealing nothing finely tuned. When Dave Jones was at Dapol and Graham Hubbard from Bachmann learned of a problem the first thing they do is engage with the customers and keep them informed. Good customer relations are built on clear, open and honest communication not on sit tight and let it blow over. When Hornby were market leaders they may have got away with this kind of behaviour, unfortunately Hornby are no longer in that position and it's rivals are now producing equal and most times better models than they are. If Hornby are to regain customer confidence and rebuild a good relationship then it is in their best interest to come clean and at least acknowledge that they have got the wheels wrong.

At least give the video maker top marks for effort, he is obviously pleased judging by the "Absolutely brilliant" count, but hardly inspiring with the noisy motor and bent valve gear linkage and the other known irritants. I'm afraid that despite the generally superb looks it is more Railroad than Super Detail and should be priced as such.

Sad but true Mike, Hornby can no longer be trusted on pre ordering. Let's face it the world is not going to fall apart if we do not get a particular loco regardless of how desirable it is. I will never pre order from Hornby again unless the standard improves and quality is consistent. The situation with the Wainwright C class is uncommon (I did pre order that one), and Bachmann could almost sell as many of them as they could turn out, whereas the Star I doubt will fly off the shelves. However if I can pick up a non dodgy heavy tank or Star without pre ordering, all well and good, if not then there are plenty of other (Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan etc.) models I can buy.

I think the referral is to a normal everyday person ( whatever that is?) without extremes. One does not have to be a modeller or an expert, however they are around to advise those who do not know.

Sale of goods act does not just cover faulty goods, it covers, description of goods and quality amongst others. Below is a bit of the information on quality, this is simplified but it gets more complicated. The said loco looks like a Star and is advertised as a Star and if the consumer is willing to accept it as such then so be it, however if it comes with a warped footplate, missing valve gear wrong wheels, then the customer can ask for a replacement or refund, given that Hornby are in denial about the latter the customer may accept the first two being rectified. Because a loco does not look the shade of green you expect and has moulded handrails the customer has not recourse because those details are known about before purchasing, and by purchasing the customer accepts this. Colour is a very subjective topic as one persons interpretation of Brunswick green mat differ from another. What does satisfactory quality mean?Goods are of satisfactory quality if they are of a standard a reasonable person would think was satisfactory at the time of sale. This should take into account their price and anything else that seems to be relevant, for example, whether they're second-hand. Goods should: Be fit for purposeGoods should be fit for all the purposes this type of goods is normally used for. For example, a toaster must be able to make toast and a washing machine must be able to wash clothes. Be of satisfactory appearance and finishYou can expect a new item to have a good appearance and finish. If it doesn't, it's probably not of satisfactory quality, even if it has no other faults. For example, a new car with scratches or a shop-soiled dress aren't of satisfactory quality. If goods are second-hand then you can't expect their appearance and finish to be as perfect as that of new items. Be free of minor defectsSomething with minor defects is probably not of satisfactory quality, even if the defects could be repaired. For example, a new shirt with buttons missing isn't of satisfactory quality, even if you could replace the buttons. A china dish with a small chip also isn’t of satisfactory quality.

Well on sites like this which is a start, Simon Kohler follows this and other sites. If we extrapolate from Phil's posting , if a car or washing machine was faulty a product recall would be issued, admittedly the Star is not faulty (Although if the curved footplate and the missing valve linkage if widespread would be a good enough reason to recall the product) but the issue of returning a product has been discussed at length on the Bachmann quality issues topic. Initial return should always be to the retailer not the manufacturer.

Mike just because we are modellers I don't think you can make assumptions like the one you are making. Yes bits falling off or something minor can easily be rectified but where does it stop, there is only so much that is acceptable as a fault before it is prudent to return it to the manufacturer. There are many people who buy RTR precisely because they either cannot or do not wish to make wholesale changes to what should be a correct model in the first place.. It is one thing to buy a model and then choose to alter it to ones liking, however it should not be the case that the purchaser has to make changes just to bring it up to the expected base standard. Yes it can be a bit of a fag to send ones model back to the manufacturer, however that said when I have had occasion to return products to Hornby they have refunded my postage without me even requesting it.

"As much as we would like them to, Hornby cannot be expected to move it about for different engines" thats for us to do, cut off the offending mouldings and replace them in the correct position with wire ones, just add it to the ever growing list of tweaks

One tries to be positive, it certainly is a fine looking loco, then you scratch below the surface, not only do we have the wrong wheels, moulded handrails but now missing valve linkage? There are concerns about the tender, the drawbar, and the curvature of the frame. Even though I would like one of these I feel that it is a model that has to be inspected first hand before even thinking about buying one, and taking a checklist along with you to make sure all the above are checked as correct as can be and ticked off. I normally model GWR BR period, but the Star with the 3500 gal. tender in GWR guise just looks so elegant.

Rob, have you already changed your bogie wheels ? I only count ten spokes, or is that a bit of your photo magic?

I feel sorry for SK but he will not be doing himself or Hornby any favours if he is in denial regarding the wheels., and they get the big tender wrong.

The only way to really tell if there is a upward curve on Robs front frame is to put something flat about 2-3 inches long on the front which extends in front, measure the height at the buffer beam and the height at the end of the flat piece of material, should give an indication of any upward curve

I will gladly eat a bit of 'umble pie and say that this is not a poorly detailed model, the handrails and the wheels are; the former a poor choice and the latter an unfortunate mistake, but cast those two glitches aside and what are we left with? A truly beautiful representation of one of the most beautiful locos ever built my congratulations to Hornby. A Star and a Castle sat alongside each other on shed ? I may have a very difficult time resisting temptation when I get to Warley. Did any of the Stars that reached BR days retain the 3500 gal tender or were they all rebuilt by then with 4000 gal tenders?

Thank you Rob, as usual superb shots, Generally Hornby have captured the sheer grace of the Star which was a beautiful loco. The apparent upturn at the front plate looks more or less pronounced depending on the angle viewed, I'm wondering if it is an optical illusion? To be honest the 12 spoke wheels are not obvious on casual viewing. Worth buying? That would depend on how desperate one is to own a.Star, and if one can justify the cost. However all that said, given that Hornby are going through a traumatic time in the company they have produced a nice looking if poorly detailed model, if this is as bad as it gets then there is hope for the future.

" I am just a bit baffled by the apparent willingness to not buy a model of a "new" prototype, because it could & should have been better." Because it could/should have been better for the price that is being asked for it, I do not 'need' a Star however I would like one and I would work on correcting the shortcomings, but as far as I am concerned it is too expensive for what is on offer. NRM City of Truro vs Steam Star similar price, but CoT standard of quality is was I would expect for that price, close in price gulf in quality.

I agree I have been a bit critical of the way Hornby are going, however if we did not have this debate nothing would ever change. I also want Hornby to be right up there with the other manufacturers producing top class models, if people accept the model as it is, fine, however that does not detract from the fact it is wrong, even if it is a relatively minor but noticeable detail. I am quite capable of detailing the models hand rails etc, I can even change the bogie wheels. But, if I am going to shell out £100 + pounds for a model I expect those minor details to be researched and correct and to a level that reflects the price. God forbid we get to a stage whereby we accept models which are wrong because we have to feel grateful that a particular model is being made? Hornby can produce brilliant models, my Thompson O1 is one of my favourite locos of all time and I am a GWR man! So I have a right to feel disappointed when two locos I really like ( the 72xx and Star) are nowhere near the Standard of the 01yet will cost me more to buy.

It looks as if they have been released then with the 12 spoke wheels which is a shame, it is a shame that the error was not noticed before on some of the photos released. As with the heavy tanks I will not be buying a Star unless I pick one up at a more realistic price.I was sorting out some stock today, looking at the Hornby Pullmans, Gresleys and Thompson 01 it puts into perspective what they could achieve and how far the quality has descended. If it is to do with a new factory being brought up to speed skill wise then it will be some time before there is a return to the heady days of yore which would tie in with what Simon Kohler indicated when he said it would be a year before things settled down. Design Clever has not been well received amongst modelers with only the 2Bil getting a favourable review thus far, If Hornby are serious about model railways then consistency is the key in their range and pricing as Stationmaster has pointed out, at present we have Railroad, Design Clever and supposedly Super detailed models, however Design clever models appear to have a foot in both of the other ranges.

Thanks for the overview Bobwyer, it does sound like a super model apart from the wheels., as I stated before moulded hand rails etc can be replaced by a steady hand and plenty of patience, wheels are a nuisance which I would replace eventually, but as long as there are no twists and curves in the frame it is to be hoped that this loco will be a huge success for Hornby. When you get round to replacing the bogie wheels any info on dismantling etc. perhaps a photo or two would be much appreciated.

Thanks Rob I have discussed faults and returns etc on another thread and it really does not need going over again. I agree it is a rare event these days when something has not fallen/ broken off, and yes most of the time it is not a major chore to repair it. Moulded handrails and smoke box darts are what we used to replace and call it detailing a model. If we did not have such high expectations these Stars would be considered good base models for detailing, however, that is not the case and we often use Bachmann as a yardstick to compare Hornby models, and it is evident that although Hornby models are generally more expensive than Bachmann the recent offerings are falling behind detail wise and the gulf appears to be growing, the latest example of which is the Star and the 10000, yes different models but the latter is getting rave reviews and is well priced whilst the former is panned and is looking more like an expensive investment. I feel sorry for Simon Kohler who must be pulling what remains of his hair out by the handful, just when the eagerly awaited Star is about to hit the shops a fairly basic mistake with the wheels puts a spanner in the proverbial, not earth shattering but slovenly and not what Hornby needs at this moment. A few years ago Hornby included alternative bogie sets in the streamlined Coronation pacific boxes, they made replacement frames for the T9 . If they were really clever they would tool up a heap of replacement front bogies and distribute them ASAP, it would the not be a problem to undo the wrong bogies and screw on the correct ones.

I wonder if Hornby will consider a recall, or supplying the correct wheel sets free of charge? They are on the edge of a precipice here, if the Star fails what next for Hornby? It really beggars belief that such simple design faults can get through. Like others have pointed out £145 for what is not a lot better than a railroad loco makes Hornby look frankly ridiculous compared with Bachmann.

This is all shaping up to be a disaaaaaster daaaaahling, first the heavy tanks now the even more eagerly awaited 'Star',I hope for Hornby's sake that the footplate curvature is nothing more than an individual glitch. Wrong bogie wheels? Again I hope Hornby can show examples with 12spoked wheels, but even so then they would have to adjust for the locos with 10 spoked wheels. I know it is not the end of the world but many more mistakes like this could result in the end of consumers patience, having locos delayed is tolerable but when they eventually pitch up with glaring mistakes it is hard to swallow. I am so glad I no longer pre- order anything Hornby it's just too much of a gamble.

May be dribs and drabs but at least we are seeing Hornby models coming through, It would be nice to see some photos and a review of said locos if anyone has one that they would like to share with us.

Mark I believe the sound decoder for the L1 is a viable alternative. I am no expert but saw a video of one of these decoders installed in the O1 which the owner said was as near as makes no difference. Both Thompson locos with the same cylinder arrangement I believe. Unfortunately I cannot remember where I saw it, it could be on this thread or just google O1 sound using an L1 decoder. Hope this helps.