wagonbasher

Only just seen this thread. If you want to know what constitutes a big layout ask an exhibition manager. They are most likely to be the ones that cost the most with the biggest vans and numerous operators to accommodate and feed. When the exhibition team create the floor plan with that big drawing of the exhibition hall and tack on layout shaped bits of paper, they will start with these big layouts, they usually want them to be prominent and their size command the shape of the island(s) everything else can fit around them. Sweeping generalisms there, I know. Andy

Its not been hijacked, this is what we want to see.. Andy

An excellent use of perspective in the back scene. one point I like here is that the tramway is clearly a tram laid on a roadway (well having come off some reserved track), Tram layouts (and I include the one I was involved with) can be roads built around tram tracks. The same exists in railway modelling, many modelers design the track plan and then add the scenery, contours etc to suite the railway. In reality, the land was there first and the track should ideally be planned to suite a landscape. When I look on the town scene on the Stafford Tram layout (page 1 of this thread) I can see we were being governed by the radius of the set track turnouts. Yes Richard remembers us try to see just how tight a turn a poor little 4 wheeler could manage but a 90 degrees bend into a street was not possible. We never even thought about stuff like that. Andy

London centric...... Croyden centric it seams. I knew you would have the inside story. Andy

Thank you FB..l. Face book obvs. Need to swot up. shame about the London located festival maybe the high London cost prohibited the ability to pay expenses. Running the layout at your own cost is going to limit what you can run and fir how long Andy

Like you, I am not purley a Tram modeller. Most of my activities over the last 20 years have been railways. Feeling really stupid... Fd? I'm I missing something. intrested in the Riply Road event if we are ever allowed out Andy

My re-interest (if there is a word) in model trams coincided with the final 'Festival of model tramways'. Reading between the lines the organisers wanted a London venue or nothing. Is there a desire to show tram layouts, are they out there. I posted a thread a couple of years ago, saying whats out there, tell me about your layouts. 7 replies most were Colin. Not much watching RMweb. In fairness however this is a model railway forum so I understand. Is there wealth of layouts out there or is just a few of us? I include myself in this seamingly elite group Seriously was the tramway festival on its knees with lack of interest or were the London centric (not a criticism you are where you are) organisers not able to organise an event outside of London ( I know they tried). Andy

Hi Tel We had some good times with that layout didn't we. I am still picking at my Black Country steam tram project. Lack of time is the enemy. I'm sure I have some more photos somewhere, there is the suburban reserved track section. The oddest gig we did with the tram layout was 1987 St Paul's Church in Birmingham. we had to stand in the pews... It was something to do with a Bolton Watt anniversary, Birmingham's festival of steam. I took photos of the church and the pipe organ but not the tram layout. Back in the days of film cameras a snap came with a financial commitment and I could look at the tram layout twice a week... Andy

I can't answer your questions, I am out of my depth but keen to play the game. in the first B&W shot there is no Piltcher, no distinctive wrap over roof. I also don't believe in here is one preserved either. Suspect that's it with its nose poking out of the single road shed. Kit manufacturers i have no idea. I started at BEC and came forward. Given your comments about you role and timing with BEC they are not as old as I had assumed so I doubt I know any of these. i will see if I can spot the preserved tram. Andy

I knew new you would have some, so I xcuse my ignorance what was tramlink. Shop, manufacturer, both. What period are you talking. Edit. I'm an idiot, I will leave my stupid question there. I know what Croydens tramlink is. So what was the shop? I am surprised that at the cutting edge of rapid transit they would want anything to do with a dusty old tram less tramway model. And I can see what period this was. Andy

Thank you for joining in. Hopefully we can flush some others out. I like the Leeds system, We ran some horsefields on the layout, I might still have them? 180 at Crich can still halt me in my tracks. In about 1982. I was visiting bus garages in Leeds spotting buses and in the back of the depot stood an old lorry. I'm sure I took a photo (slides, that would take some finding) and later realised that the same vehicle was in a book about Leeds trams and it was the overhead access vehicle. I wish i had more time to wade through my old stuff. Andy

As promised, the layout never had a name, it was just the stafford Railway Circles Tram Layout: I still see Dave around town, he has no interest in trams buses or railways, he did't then, but he did have a car. This is the first part of the layout built, depot and power station and terminus. We were exhibiting at a bus rally in Hanley Clough street depot (now gone). A closer look at the depot, I would say this was 1987 Wolverhampton exhibition. I still have the bus blind. I think it is the lower part of a two roller blind from either a Midland Red S22 or S23. Wolves again, the town scene had a lot of crazy tight bends. The attentive operator is my wife Jane, putting up with my hobby then as she does now. The town scene and Jane from the opposite angle. Many of the buildings were based on ones in Stafford. The track was just Peco flexi track with set points. A younger me in a pre Stafford Railway Circle Exhibition picture in the Stafford Newsletter. Newspaper photographers always wanted you to be in the scene, preferably doing something. "Can you touch the tram / train?", No. the whole point is that we don't touch them!!. Anyway, this little street section linked the depot and the town. It is interlaced track through the arch. There were loose plastic cobbled inserts that fitted between the blades of the turnouts, not sure why that one is missing ? I am sure I have more pictures somewhere, great times. Andy

I found tonight some photos of a tram layout I was involved with in the early to mid 1980's The layout was supported by the Stafford Railway Circle of which I was a very active member at this time. I remember this period very well, I was a young committee member, the club was skint ( a very different club than today with its own clubroom and very significant show in the 'normal' annual exhibition circuit) and I was courting (showing my age) my future and still enduring wife Jane. it didn't seem to matter that we ran Leeds and London trams together, or that the wolverhampton was standard gauge. The layout featured overhead wires but the trolley poles remained flat on the roofes of the trams. All Bec kits, OMG the speeds we ran them at, I cringe at the thought. Still great fun. We had some guidance from a modern image modeller called Don Jones. He modelled in his big shed and garden railway new street station and Rugeley power station with cooling towers the size of dustbins (old fashioned type). He showed us how to model buildings with Stanley knives and 1/8 ply. All very crude compared with the stuff I model today but effective for an overall scene which I guess we were trying to achieve. Eithervway that experience of scratch building was the foundation stone of future layouts involving myself and other club members including new haden colliery and Black Country blues. i will scan them and post them tomorrow. They come from a time when anything seemed possible. Please show me yours, what old photos do you have of your old tram layouts. Andy

I bent and snapped some more parts today and release that I was / am subconsciously placing the brass cut mark a little deeper than the edge of the steel, only by 1/2mm or something but I am obviously compensating for the little radius. It still works fine and I did some 10 thou this morning, that snaps very easily. I don't know about scale on the steel, there is no sign of anything coming off, but then I don't know what kind of steel it is. Andy

OK They are quite small radius but I take your point. Some of the steel bars in B&Q were more rounded than these. Without a milling machine I don't think there is a way of squarely taking out the small rounded corners. So far I have used them to score and snap sheet brass, I am scratch building so no etches involved. There is no indication of bending before snapping, but a knife cut is thinner than a half etch. I've used it on 16 thou sheet, maybe at a thinner gauge it might bend round the radius before snapping. I have also tried just bending the score lines to about 20 degrees as that suites parts of the prototype, again very crisp angle, you couldn't bend much more without removing more material on the inside of the bend. It cost me less than a tenner and was quite enjoyable to make, the nice thing about scratch building rather than using etched kits is that you can just do it again a different way. You haven't ruined part of a kit, you just made a piece of brass for the scraps box. If it doesn't suite some applications then I will use something else. By the way, I'm not knocking etched kits, trust me if there was someone making etched kits of steam trams I wouldn't be making one from scratch. Andy

as promised

I still owe you some photos, but to close off the bending bars. so, it turns out it was 14mm x 14mm steel bar from B&Q at £7.30. I trimmed off the ends, the manufacturers cutting process had distorted the ends a little. Then cut the bar in half. I clamped the two bars together one on top of the other between two pieces of stripwood. With a pillar drill I drilled down though both Bars, gradually increasing the bore to 5mm. I tapped the bottom bar with a M6 tap and then opened out the hole in the top bar to 6mm. I made sure that the ends of the bars and all of the holes were free of burrs. I bought some 25mm M6 bolts ( I think they call them cap heads) sort of raised head, knurled with a hex key hole. They cost £1.50 from Amazon (free delivery). So I think the bend capacity is about 14 inches. I don't think that is long enough for a 7mm coach side but I'm not making any of them... i have practised and what what I am pleased about is that the sort of hex shape at the front of the tram can be bent along a score line rather than formed with separate pieces. You couldn't do that with a grater angle but it will work for the tram photos to follow. Andy

Tonight I tried my first score and snap. I used a Stanley knife (maybe a bit heavy but its that or the scalpel today. It worked ok. I was only squaring up the brass sheet. Bending bars appear to be ideal for this, following another thread I bought some 12mm x 12 mm bar from B&Q to make my own bars [£7.30] not all of their bar has defined edges. I will try to drill down and tap the lower bar, failing that, two big clamps. maybe some photos at the weekend. Andt

Im not completely buying into the silhouette cutter, finding the laminating a bit hit and alignment and some warping. Chosen for now to try brass for the body. I have pended a thread on kitbuilding and scratcbuiding on rmweb to harvest the knowledge pool. will post some pics soon Andy

So... Almost 2 weeks since my first post, some advise, some books and some practice and I have some observations. my primary plan doesn't quite match photographs I have of a Kitson standard 4 window steam tram to f my period. Not a problem I have identified and understand the weaknesses. scribing wth my scribing block is great but probably unnecessary as a square does most the work. the engineers scribe is a bull in a China shop, I resorted to my scalpel quite quickly, Simon Boltons book also suggests a craft knife. the Blue sharpie helps ID the cut lines but it does com off on your hands and after some work on my piece I had to rescribe a section as the sharpie had rubbed off. Not sure how the Dykem (engineers blue) would compare. Piecing saw massive learning curve. Used it very occasionally before. My first run this time this time was a disaster. Guy Williams said if it won't run true churck the blade. I did and things were better, not sure if it was the blade or experience. He also said angle the saw forward to cut slightly diagonally to the brass ( Straight cuts only). More teeth on the brass. What a ritual replacing the blade is.... in saying that I tried to whip the triangular corners off the footplate off with junior hacksaw. What a brutish approach, like putting track pins in with a lump hammer. Once I had cut a few pieces, the piecing saw is pleasurable, steady easy cutting, maybe half a mm off the scribe line, with my glasses on. Amazing news that I can cut straight lines with a knife, news about bending bars to help snap the knife fracture lines. Filing is best done with the piece supported on a block, cutting down only to the scribed line dont hit the punch too hard, it will distort the brass ohhh, if you need glasses, wear them....... In the past I had at times struggled with kits to make them as per the many facturers way. Whatever I do here is my way (with advise from you) right or wrong. commentary welcome Andy

A quick summary. Sharpie seams to work ok. marking out is hard. I like the way I can paint over mistakes with the sharpie and the mark disappears (well, I know its still there).. The Guy Williams book was as described by Rangers and so that is on its way. I have also ordered a copy of the Simon Bolton book scratch building locomotives. I might cut something later. Thank you for your collective help so far. Andy

A block of wood... I can do that. Andy

A good call, I do have some squares and solder, Is the blue sharpie to colour the metal so I can see my scribes rather than using it to make marks. Im also wondering what folk use to hold panels at 90 deg to each other, the luxury of a half etch fold will not be available to me. Andy

Thank you for that, I do have some shots. I visited last year and learnt a lot. Steam tram locomotives almost always ran firebox first with triangles at the terminus rather than run around loops. This means that almost all photographs are from the firebox end.. Like, I had assumed there were doors at either end but at the smoke box end there is just a hatch to allow that ash to be cleared from the smoke box. There are access hatches / panels everywhere, I see you have a shot under the ladies skirt... Andy

I wonder if our american friend recognises Blu tak, produced by Bostik in Leicester. There will be other brands. I worked for Evostik / Bostik for 23 years. When the two companies merged clearly Blu tak was Bostiks cash cow. A collegue in the Bostik marketing team said, "if the public realise it's reusable, we are finished", where does it go? I saw a complaint once. Someone was objecting to Bostik's claim that blue tak has 1000's of uses. His view was sticking one thing to another was one use and he was struggling to find anymore. Andy