wagonbasher

With what little modelling time I have available I have been nibbling away at an unusual project, 7mm narrows gauge steam trams in the black country circa 1885 -1895. There are no kits, no track, certainly nothing ready to run and not a lot of material available. Track work I have figured and tested, buildings I am always comfortable with, scratch built buildings. It is rolling stock I need to invest my time in. This sort of thing: That is a Birmingham and Aston 4 window Kitson with its crude trailer, not the exact prototype for me but they were reasonably standard. I have not scratch built something in brass before, my hope is that I tell you what I am doing whilst inviting those who know more than me to tell me what I am doing wrong, how I could do it easier, what tool I am missing. My source documents are some general arrangement plans, Some key dimensions Photos of the only preserved stuffed and mounted Kitson in the country and access to it if needs be (in a museum in Hull) Some prototype photographs The chassis, wheels, motor and gearbox are built. I have a cosmetic boiler and firebox in plastic. So I intend to start the body. These are the tools and materials I have. Brass sheet, 16 thou, 10 thou and 5 thou. lots of brass strip, will need more. Soldering Iron (Obvs) Piercing saw and blades A scribe and steel rules I have a scribing block M&W 9" Hacksaw Minidrill ect I expect to start cutting out the floor of the cab. with hole for the motor and gearbox as well as some secured nuts in order to attach the chassis. The walls of the cab will project up off the floor (well outside of the floor) and the skirts that hide the wheels and motion will hang down from it, slightly inset. I will make the floor with the 16 thou (0.4mm). Any immediate thoughts team? Andy

You could use the discarded stone 'sleeper' blocks as part of an embankment / cutting side like these. I believe they are ex LNWR and form part of the approach to 'Bagnall's bridge (castle street / railway street) in Stafford Andy

Mark, only just read this. I had no idea you had been asked to not take your new layout. If there is anyway I can not help, let me know. All. Looking good, will the paint be dry in time. Andy

Not my scale, not my gauge but thevBlack beetle range appears to be available from 'motor bogies' thevwebsite has current references dont know anymore Andy

Hi Tony, apologies if you have covered this already but I see that you refer to the model as a diorama, I presume the trams move as your u are wing up. If we look at the layout will it be open on one side in the way we can see it in the photos you have posted. Does the traverser need to work. Andy

Well, its not a year since my last post but its getting near. Have I moved the project on loads? No Have I done nothing? No I have added to the back to back houses, Messed about painting some very smart Andrew Stadden figures (also seen the range of 'ragged Victorians' in the Modelu range - Fantastic But recently I have turned my attention to locomotion. The Kitson needs a chassis and a motor. Chassis cut and drilled to accommodate spacers (I described these earlier in this thread). So axle below the chimney is fixed, sliding hornblocks on the rear axle for compensation (allowing the rear axle to rock, keeping all wheels on the rail however dodgy ny track building is. Motor and gear box from High Level. Fantastic products, easy to make with really good instructions. This is a 110 / 1 box with a relatively slow revving motor. With the little wheels, the maximum scale speed I can achieve flat out is just under 10MPH which is all they were allowed to do. This shot show the two together, Note that I have remade the chassis spacers, Even when fully tightened up the tubes still allowed the chassis to twist so they had to go. In saying that they did make it easy to fit and cut the new spacers as the chassis spacing was already set. Note the bar over the compensated axle, it is this that the floating axle rocks (sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, compensation is very understood in the world of finescale railways not sure it is seen much in tramway modelling). Next with coupling rods fitted, it runs well, I have also added mounts for the pick ups. Finally I have made a start on the boiler to hid that motor. That's all for now, I'll try not to leave it so long next time Andy

Hi Tony i worry that you don't have enough copper clad there. i know it won't be seen and I know to not a railway... just thinking about strength and stability, including expansion in the warm weather. Can you or others put put my mind at rest worried of Stafford Andy

You could try modelling your own. if you can find a figure with the head and upper body in the pose you like preferably from this collection since we are on the modlu thread, you could crudely carve down his bottom and thighs and then more carefully shape his lower legs with a scalpel or files. You can use self adhesive aluminium tape to make the kilt. You can buy if from most diy shops (when they open). It is just thick self adhesive foil. A roll will last you your modelling life. Once you have had a few goes and got one you like, you can turn the figure upside down and carefully fill the kilt with a bit of epoxy otherwise it will remain just a bit of tape that can be squashed. If you managed to carve some shapely calves (is that how you spell it) you can use a slither of the foil to create the tops of the highlanders socks. Layering up some carefully cut shapes of foil will probably Make the sporran. Andy edited some typos

I've got all his albums...... Andy

At a cheesy antiques fair at the weekend I bought a book, a photographic study, West Bromwich, people and places. It had a tram on the front so couldn't resist. Lots of pictures of pubs through the decades. I stopped dead when I found the 'eight locks' pub. Instant recognition. It Bcb's very own chain makers pub. Apparently singer and songwriter Jack Judge used to perform there. He is the guy who wrote 'it's a long way to Tipperary'. I had always assumed the writer would have Irish origins, maybe jack was? Andy

This is a link to OS maps (National Library of Scotland, I know... I don't get it). This is circa 1922 There are no newer maps of this location on this site. You can see the layout of the exchange sidings at Penkridge (adjacent to the mainline) the sidings at the canal wharf and on the adjacent map (Huntingdon) you can see the colliery layout... On this map there is a later version circa 1938 https://maps.nls.uk/view/102347354 Andy

Hi. Where can I get the motorbgearbox combo. Do you know what the ratio is. andy

Looking forward to it. Come and talk to us about prototype buildings modelled from scratch, we are modelling in 7mm but happy to talk any scale. Come and see our latest projects and ones we've made earlier. andy

Thank you Colin, excellent knowledge. I walked what I could of the rural section in the mid eightie, I think.... I didn't see any track then. There were rails in the depot yard in Amblecote at that time, there long gone now although the depot building is still there. It is the Stourbridge laser quest now and sits the other side to a Chinese restaurant that was once the fish inn where trams would depart for kinver. Anyway, the inclusion of old depot data returns the hyjacked thread to its true purpose andy

Kinnear clarks book Tramways, their construction and working of 1894 has an image over a couple of pages showing 50 different rolled steel rail sections. A couple of those are centre groove. There must be 150 pages dedicated to current thinking an track construction. Remember this would predominantly cover rails for horse and steam tram. i learnt recently that the rural sections of the kinver tramway used railway style rail but changed to tramway grooved rail when they came to the crossing loops, I imagine that is to enable them to utilise tramway points and crossings. i think it was the use of railway rail and the narrow 3' 6" gauge that meant the board of trade would only allow single deck operation, the tramways grooved rail providing a constant check rail and therefore stability. The tramway flanges being so much shallower than their railway counterparts. Andy

I am familiar with his work and I have used them in a number of scales, just checking that he is doing all things in all scales.. I have started a project modelling Black country steam trams in 7mm. So, very interested in Victorian figures As I have to scratch build the steam tram locomotives, the trailers, the track and the streets and all of the buildings I am very keen to have something I can just buy and paint... See the project at 'The Trams that Time Forgot' in 'Trams and tramway modelling' here on Rmweb.. Andy

I know the thread reads 4mm Edwardian figures, can I assume that these will also be available in 7mm.... do you Think? andy

I said that I would model on a number of fronts. Those that know me may have wondered what wagonbasher was doing messing with the steamy mass transit of passengers rather than freight. Well. There is always room for a bit of freight. All steam tram systems had PW wagons but more about those later... This project was patented and used for a while by the South Staffordshire Tramways, Local authorities muscled the idea out after a few years (two noisy too much) but for a while this was urban freight on the Black Country Streets. This is a road rail wagon. The goods would be picked up from the 'supplier' by this horse and cart. Four equal 3 foot diameter wheels, with what looks like removable sides. The 'Oss' takes the wagon to the tramway... No provision for wagon driver looking at the drawing so presumably the Oss and wagon are lead. Once the wagon reaches the tramway, a steam tram locomotive or the Oss traction position the wagon over the rails and a second set of wheels, road wheels are lowered down onto the rails using a windlass on the wagon. As the rail wheels are lowered onto the rails taking the weight of the wagon they lift the road wheels off the floor. The steering turntable is locked. A wagon on rails is easier and quicker to pull for the horse, heavier weights, less lumps and bumps from unmade roads. Once close to the destination the road wheels are lowered back down, the rail wheels lifting up and the steering turntable unlocked. Then the Oss or a different OSS takes the wagon away from the tramway to the customer. Images from the Kinnear Clarke book from 1894 Its not clear what happens to the 'shafts' in transit on the rails as there is nothing on the drawing, I suspect that they would be hinged (they are hinged anyway) upright and strapped in place Andy Duncan has a good range of 7mm horses, carts, wagons, traction engines etc in both white metal and brass. This will form the basis of the road rail wagon model: I only need the deck, the wheels and the under frame. I can get 'HO' / TT wagon wheels at 8mm (just over a foot in 7mm) diameter from 'Branchlines', they are the Black beetle range of wheels (just wheels, not Black beetle bogies). I will need to replace the axles to suite the 24.5mm gauge. Order for wheels being placed this weekend. Andy

It does look strange without a trolley pole....... Andy

An an interesting talk tonight. I hadnt realised that that the group.. The group restoring the sandfield pumping station in Lichfield were just having a monthly meeting with a 1 hour talk at the end. i sat very politely and quietly as they went through their projects health and safety and the new rewiring. very interesting and when I looked it up at home, what an amazing building. I will take a chance to see the building as the project develops. Staffordshire and the Black Country trams are a big topic for an hour and it was a romp around staffordshires tram systems with crowd pleasing anecdotes thrown in. a good night. andy

I see the building in the last photo is still there today. It looks like a pub maybe a sign behind the gas lamp. Odd that the Sun shades / canopies are completely coving the window. The building is now the offices of a social care company. It is on the junction of church street and high street. Andy

A nice day out at the 'barn'. Look, as if by magic without the use of hands or a trolley pole it moves. I presume it runs off batteries? Did you spot the Midland Railway crest on the side? As for the other photographs they are clearly taken by you in your local area with some kind of sepia filter or app. Looks nice, did the weather hold. I am going to the talk tonight that Richard posted on this thread a few days ago. It is on Staffordshire trams, the B&A should just qualify. Andy

Ok, thank you, I might get the chance later today. Now that BCb has moved out I am trying to finish my garage extension. I was part though plaster boarding etc all those years ago when BCB came along. my new trams need a home. Andy

Oh... I thought I had replied to that question, here goes again. the laser cut windows are very accurate, in 7mm I think the depth of the frames is good. Probably a bit heavy in 4mm. Thet are cut from wood so I reserve absolute approval until I paint some but at £0.49 a window I think that's pretty good. limited range, a bit more industrial, I guess the range matches the building kits. andy

Building development Last week at Doncaster I bought some laser cut windows from Lcut Creative. You will see below that I have two style's of sash window. Just blue tacked in place. Marking up the next three houses for cutting out the windows doors and two entires running front to back into the yard. The fisrt of the upstairs shop windows The overall plan. Each scene will be on its own removable board, to the left I am planning a property with stabling and a 'nail shop'. Andy