mikeh

Think this pic first appeared on Railchat a couple of years back. the episode in question.... Try doing that at an exhibition.... Regards Mike

A couple of Tyseley's finest 08601 "Spectre" October 1987 08404 "Phantom" June 1986 Regards Mike

Keeping on the BC topic, my favourite graffiti was on a toilet wall during a pub crawl round Netherton or Dudley in the 70s which read "You don't buy beer - you only rent it" Been part of my life's philosophy ever since.... Mike

What you really need is one of these Cheers!

Eric is correct - it was Rugby DED in those days, The Type 1s went for fuel and were not unknown on local trippers between workings. There were also regular ferry turns from Nuneaton to fuel locos there until the DED closed in Jan 1969 Regards Mike

Hi Andy I think the spur at Princes End was actually built, certainly the formation was, but there is some doubt if it ever opened. In 1921 part of the formation was used for Tranters Siding which served Tranters Boiler Works and remained in situ until 1967. The OWW line stayed open until April 1968 to serve the South Staffs Wagon works but closed once a connection was laid in to the Stour Valley at Bloomfield Jn. There was a proposal in 1969 to re-open it between Tipton and Dudley with a chord from the Stour at Bloomfield, but this came to nothing. One other point regarding your revised map, surely the connection to serve the 'Shaft should face Darlaston? Regards Mike

Mishtake indeed Phil - Northfleet was Blue Circle and everybody knows that Bloomfield belonged to their deadly rivals - Tunnel Cement..... More likely Gateshead men road learning in readiness for diagramming Class 55s on the Lackenby steel?? Regards Mike

Thinking about that, perhaps supply problems at Lackenby meant smaller loads from there, hence the Scunthorpe trains taking up the slack. Reduced loads from Lackenby could mean that train being diagrammed a TE 37, and the Scunthorpe running more often than booked? Perhaps Andy could give us his view on the traincrew diagramming involved. We think at that time not many Bescot men knew 37s but possibly Derby men did? Or would Masboro or Barrow Hill men work through? Regards Mike

Sorry Andy, hadn't seen this when I posted the the last reply - the prejudices are meant to be tounge in cheek (as are any spelling mistakes....) The Birmingham Division was a Sulzer Type 2 stronghold and the 31s were not well lliked when they displaced them. I am sure Phil would back me up on that with his professional experience. I have tried to look at the train working from a Black Country perspective but your input from the Eastern Region end would be more than welcome. Please take it from me that a trip to the loft would not be wasted. BC Blues aside I for one would be very interested in real diagrams involving trains to the Midlands Regards Mike

Hi Mark If we take the Lackenby as the principal flow loading to up to a 1000 tonnes then a Type 4 or possibly 2 x Type 3s, but thinking about it does the siding layout easily accomodate a pair of engines shunting the train (or the fiddle yard from that point of view?). Also bearing in mind a 1000 tonnes has at least one too many noughts for a 31, and we have Toton 20s on the Spring Vale limestone, I would perhaps go for an IM 47 on the Scunthorpe and either a TE 47 or stick with the YK 40 on the Lackenby. I am sure even the hallowed halls of the York Diagramming Office could be infiltrated by a little bit of modellers licence! Or of course we could switch the train to Margam and arrange for a pool of 4 Hymeks to be reinstated and allocated to Canton to provide a pair to work the train (Wocester men via Galton and Bescot) - only kidding! Mike

Dear Mr Pendant... Some points to consider... Pair of 31s? No self respecting LMR man would be seen dead on one in 1975, let alone two! OK, we have one on the coke to Spring Vale but coke isn't very heavy and there was no shunting to do at Spring Vale.... If we can't have 20s straying that far from Frodingham it would have to be a Duff. Or you could take the view that none of it is real anyway....? 40s did work to the Midlands from the ER certainly in the late 60/early 70s on the Tees Yard-Great Bridge. Bescot men worked them from Burton. We do have a timewarp capability - or Mark needs more Duffs! Seriously what I tried to do was blend the layout fiction with some strands of reality but also try and add some variety (along with copious amounts of Sulzer Type 2s of course). All input welcome but Mark and the team must of course have the final say. Regards Mike

I have one of those 51L unfitted hoppers in my kit cupboard but havn't summoned up the courage to build it yet. Looks very good but a bit pricey for a rake of 20! Regards Mike

Hi Andy Re the iron ore, take your point about the HJO/Vs but MSO/Vs are easier to acquire. There was a picture of Naptha in 45t tanks in Modern Railways about the time the plant opened. As far as I remember they were standard Class A. By 1975 they would be fairly non-descript I would guess. Regarding the ballasts Phil, the booked power for trippers was the minimum required, no reason why the engine arranger shouldn't turn out anything off the holding sidings on the day.... Regards Mike

Hi Stubby Headcodes: 1st digit = Class of train, Second letter = based on Region or District. Inter-regional trains would be E = Eastern, M = London Midland, etc Trains within the LMR used B = Bletchley/Northampton/Rugby Districts, G = Birmingham District, P = Derby District, F = Leicester/Wellinborough Distrcts etc Specials within the LMR at that time = L, Inter-regional = Z Local trips within the Division = T Third & fourth digits the train or trip number. Time: = departure time from origin Days: SX = Saturdays excepted, SO = Saturdays only, MX = Mondays excepted, TThO = Tuesday & Thursday only etc. Q as you say is as required. Y = runs to destination as required The timetable applies only to the BR lines. As the Branch is worked by private engines the working would be a bit more informal, depending on traffic available and the loading of the engine. Thats not to say a timetable could not be established, just that I didn't take it as part of the remit.... It would however be a good thing to have some sort of siding allocation plan, so scrap gets left in number 2 road or some such? Hope that helps? Regards Mike

Having discussed a working timetable with Mark, I have produced a simplifier document showing arrivals and departures for Trafalgar Sidings plus passing traffic on the "main line". This is based on the October 1975 Conditional and Mandatory Working Timetables (WTT) plus the Birmingham Division Local Trip book for the same period. We have assumed that the line took most of the traffic that would otherwise have passed via Wednesbury and Princes End, feeding Spring Vale Sidings (for Bilston Steelworks) and other terminals such as Oldbury and Wolverhampton Steel Terminals, Albion Gulf Oil and Tipton Gas. There has been a slight warping of time as Tipton Gas traffic finshed around 1974 and Oldbury closed during 1975. Traffic to Bilston had also started to run down by 1975 but still goes strong for our purposes. The only total fabrication is a cement terminal at Bloomfield Junction, on the site of the Tipton Five Ways Goods, served from Tring (Pitstone Cement Works). Local trip workings are based on those booked in October 1975 with the exception of "Target 31" which serves Trafalgar Sidings - this was "spare" in 1975. T25 to Bloomfield Jn served the South Staffs Wagon Works so could convey all sorts of wagons, mainly tanks for repair. This ran from Bescot via Wednesfield Road in the morning but has been re-routed to go via Trafalgar Sidings both ways. The sidings themselves receive steel billet from Lackenby and or Scunthorpe plus fuel oil from Stanlow. Outwards traffic is finished steel section and scrap moved by trip workings plus the empty steel and oil tanks. Locomotive workings are shown and are the booked traction as far as possible with a bit of added interest. The diagram details are pure fabrication to show what each engine worked next but shouldn't be too far away from reality. A copy of the draft timetable follows. Comments and questions welcomed! Regards Mike

Hi Mark I see Phil has pre-empted some of the questions in the reply I have just sent to your PM BAAs could carry a variety of steel loads, not just coil so slabs or billets are possible. In 1975 they would certainly be a trainload operation as AB wagon load was still pretty rare. Would have to check if the Lackenby-Wolves was air or vac at that time, otherwiise might be a struggle to use them. When you have thought about what I have proposed in the PM perhaps we can post a summary on here? Regards Mike PS - are you planning to fit DCC controlled headcode blinds? Just kidding....

These were shown in the Sectional Appendix for most locations. And of course prior to 1976 most diesels displayed the reporting number in the headcode panel on the front of the engine which gave a good clue! Regards MikeH

I'll try and get something knocked up by the weekend for 1975 then Regards Mike

Hi ArthurI think Phil is getting confused with the Pargate/Treeton flow I mentioned above. It also ran from Beighton and or Tinsley at different times. 8Z29 would be a clue as Avenue was on the LMR.... Regards Mike

Nearest the 128s got in the 70s was 4V02 1058 SO Curzon St-Worcs SH 4V02 1155 SX Curzon St-Worcs SH 6M17 1312 SO Worc SH-Curzon St 1431 6M17 1412 SX Worc SH-Curzon St 1527 Went via Galton & Kiddy ISTR Can't really see a plausible reason one would go down your railway unfortunately Regards Mike

Mark Do you have a definitive year for the layout yet? I would be interested in producing a WTT for the line if it would help? Early to mid 70s would be busier than later as the rundown of the Bilston steelworks had a big impact on traffi and ulimately lead to closure. In 1973/74 Spring Vale had the following traffic Limestone from Derby St Marys (from Wirksworth), Coke from Treeton or Parkgate (Y service) Iron Ore from Wellingborough Coal from Toton (run down to a Q path - finished by October) Plus Bescot Targets 27, 32, 23 & 29 SX and 34 and 22 (twice) SO By being a bit elastic with reality we could add a few other flows such as Naptha to Tipton Gas,(ceased by 75), pig iron Dagenham Dock-Oldbury (finished 74), tubes Corby-Oldbury (finished 75) and run more traffic to New Depot - there was also Fawley to New Depot for a short while with oil for Esso at Priestfield.around 69/70 (booked a 25 from Banbury though!). South Staffs Wagon at Bloomfield would be a good excuse to run any type of tank wagon, PCA/PDAs even carflats for repair. - the trip from Bescot arrived 0830 dep 0905 in the mid 70s. Five Ways yard at Bloomfield closed in 1968 but could well have been used for a Tunnel Cement terminal - block train from Tring MWFO?? Could probably come up with a few more if thats not enough to be going on with?? Regards Mike

M55998 was at Ryecroft until March 67, then moved to Chester, to Newton Heath 12/68 then back to Chester 10/71 until withdrawn 10/73 In 1964 the Ryecroft diagram was: 3G25 0210 MX Ryecroft MPD-Walsall 0213 C7 3G25 0302 MX Walsall-Bham NS 0322 C7 1G80 0400 MX Bham NS-Walsall 0422 A4 News 3G17 0530 MX Walsall-Wvh HL 0545 C7 3G15 0610 MX Wvh HL-Walsall 0616 C7 3G09 0755 EWD Dudley-Wvh HL 0842 C7 3G01 0857 EWD Wvh HL-BhamNS 0928 C1 3B03 1025 EWD Bham NS-Rugby Mid 1135 C1 (1132 SO) 3G15 1239 EWD Rugby Mid-Coventry 1314 C1 3G10 1332 EWD Coventry-Bham NS 1408 C1 (1411 SO) 3G11 1420 EWD BhamNS-Wvh HL 1520 C1 3G69 1550 SO Wvh HL-Ryecroft MPD 1607 C7 3G14 1645 SX Wvh HL-Tipton Owen St 1653 C1 3G14 1808 SX Tiptn O S-Walsall 1826 C2 3G28 1905 SX Walsall-Cannock 1918 C8 3G28 1932 SX Cannock-Walsall 1945 C8 3G18 2005 SX Walsall-Wvh HL 2020 C7 3G12 2030 SX Wvh HL-Walsall 2045 C7 3G12 2120 SX Walsall-Bham NS 2142 C4 3G69 2204 SX BhamNS-Ryecroft MPD 2234 C7 (C8 etc being the headcode) In the 71/72 WTT a Chester 129 worked: 4G29 0900 EWD Salop-Wvh HL 0952 4D29 1105 EWD Wvh HL-Chester 4H29 1422 SX Chesetr-Wvh PCD 1719 4D29 1750 SX Wvh PCD-Chester 4G29 1422 SO Chester-Wvh HL 1650 4D29 1805 SO Wvh HL-Chester Regards Mike

Unfortunately not - Cashmores was on the South Staffs.....

While considering the local traffic flows for Mark's operations thread it occured to me to suggest a slight re-writing of Andy's history here. Instead of diverting the Darlaston Loop to meet the P & O line I would have thought the new line would leave the Loop at Woods Bank Jn and join the P & O at Gospel Oak Jn. The loop would still continue to Wednesbury enabling the route to still carry Patent Shaft traffic. Instead of being down graded, the loop was upgraded to carry the additional traffic to Trafalgar Sidings and the heavy traffic from Bescot to Spring Vale and the Stour Valley. The junction at Gospel Oak would just face Tipton as the Wednesbury curve would not really be of much operational use. This would justify I larger range of traffic passing through I would think. Just a thought? Regards Mike

Phil alerted me to this a short while ago and it's too late to write much tonight but I would point out the only signalling on the Darlaston loop proper were the homes protecting the crossing at Fallings Heath. There were stop boards at Patent Shaft and Fallings Heath and permission of the Shunter in charge was needed to pass those. The loop served, from the James Bridge end, F.H. Lloyds steelworks, E.C. & J Keay's Siding (Keays made the steelwork for Snow Hill station), various GKN Sidings (Atlas, Alma, Britannia, Bonas and Britannia New Sidings), Darlaston Steel & Iron (a separate branch serving Bradley & Foster (pig iron) and Charles Richards & Co (nuts & bolts), Charles Siding (Chas. B . Pugh - coal & scrap), Old Park Works - Metro Cammell, Central Wagon Co. - wagon works, Patent Shaft Steelworks, Prothero Tube Works and Dunns scrapyrd plus various others over the years. One note from the S.A. that might be of interest Trains working at Messrs Keay’s and Guest Keen & Knettlefold’s Atlas and Alma Sidings or the Darlaston Steel and Iron Company’s Sidings and using either of the running lines for shunting purposes, were required to have either a brake van or the engine at the Darlaston end of the wagons. If a brake van, the brake was to be secured by a chain, and in addition a sufficient number of wagon brakes were to be pinned down and sprags used, to ensure control of the wagons. The Driver and Guard were instructed to confer on the number of wagon brakes to be pinned down between Charles’s Siding and Darlaston Junction. The loop was severed at the Darlaston Jn end in November 1964 and thence worked only from the Wednesbury end. It was designated a siding in 1966 and cut back to just the Patent Shaft in 1968 until closure in 1979. Of course that only relates to the real world.... Other quick thoughts before I fall asleep - the oil siding for the Patent Shaft was off the GW at Wednesbury Central at the old Monwaty Works siding. Traffic came friom Lllandarcy or Imminghjam. Oil to Ocker Hill was worked as specials as required from Bromford Bridge or occasionally before closure from Fawley. Coke to Spring Vale came from Corby or in the 70s from Parkgate, Treeton or Beighton, the latter with a Tinsley 31 or 45 as the usual power. Will think more tomorrow Regards Mike