justin

Thanks Tony. I can't tell which slots they are, but 41154 only had tender 3563 prior to November 1946 so I really need pictures before this date Justin

While doing some research into the tenders of locomotives bought by Woodham Bros at Barry I have come across a bit of a mystery LMS Crab 2-6-0 arrived with a Fowler 3500 gallon tender which has an ex Midland Railway chassis with long frame cut outs on the side and an additional cut out in front of the leading axle. Pictures below show it when at Barry and later stored at Binbrook (it has, as far as we can tell, been subsequently scrapped) The last tender allocated to 42859 on the loco and tender record cards at the NRM is a Fowler 3500 gallon no. 3563 built in 1925 by North British Locomotive Co. It was allocated to LMS compound no. 1154 for most of the time up to November 1946 (it was with other locos from 29/8/1927-January 1928 and had two other one week spells with other locos in 1930). I would expect the tender to be all new construction and the record card does not list it as reusing old frames. John Jennison’s article on LMS 3500 gallon tenders in LMS Review No. 1 doesn’t list it as having old frames and LMS Locomotive Profiles No.13 The Standard Compounds published by Wild Swan also lists loco 1154 as having a tender with short slots in the frames. The obvious solution is an unrecorded tender swap in the latter days of steam but the following photos refute this. 42859 Saltney Jct 16.6.1964. Long frame slots visible Enlargement of the tender numberplate from the photo above which appears to read 3563 42859 Bletchley 6.12.1959. Tender 3563 was transferred to 42859 in March 1959 and the photo clearly shows the long frame slots. From my own research I regard the records as pretty accurate up to 1961 so I think we can be sure this is 3563. Finally a link to Rail Online which shows Crab 42892 at Willesden in June 1954. This loco was coupled to 3563 from November 1946 to March 1959 and the photo again shows long frame slots. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1027580583/h84a3c419#h84a3c419 Does anyone know of pictures of Compound 1154 that clearly shows the tender, I would be interested to try and establish whether it always had long slots or when they appeared. The most likely explanation is a numberplate or tank swap at some stage. Can anyone point me in the direction of information on the overhaul of tenders at Derby, Crewe and Horwich. Was the swapping of tanks (which carried the numberplate) and chassis’s commonplace or exceptional? Justin

Roof details (of E9124E rather than E9123E) Click on photo for link to Flickr

Coach on the right is probably E9122E (Click on photo for link to Flickr)

Thanks Simon. I'll have to look in a copy in due course Justin

I'm looking for photos of these locos at Woodham Bros, Barry. In particular any photo between 1970-April 1974 for 5967 and any photo from 1970-May 1976 of 7903. As it is the tenders I'm interested in I really need to be able to see this (or at least confirm the loco had one from the photo). I have extensively trawled the internet and I don't think there are any out there online at present. If anyone has a picture of 5029 Nunney Castle during its transfer from Barry-Didcot by rail that would also be of interest.

Christopher Magner in his self published spiral bound book states that 'from 1st January 1981 there was a ban on locomotives using the line from Craven Arms-Pantyffynnon except for class 03'. The reason given was to save on maintenance costs by reducing wear and tear on track and structures. As we were in a substantial economic recession at the time this certainly makes sense. He goes on to say that class 37's did continue to appear in the early part of the year but as the year wore on it was just the 03's that were used with them being specifically diagrammed for the Llandeilo Jct-Llandovery freight service from the beginning of March. The ban was partially lifted from June 1983. The book is titled Heart of Wales Line 150 has 120 pages and was published in 2019. Copies may still be available from the author.

Penlan. Thanks for that help. I'm having a proper go at completing it having started 3 years ago. Hopefully when finished it will be LMS 6619, which was a regular on the Carmarthen-Llandilo line.

I'm building an Alan Gibson kit of the LNWR 5'6" 2-4-2T. In the instructions the position of the hand wheel centre is given as 3 foot from the cab floor and 1'9" in from the right hand cab sheet (the hand wheel is mounted on the front of the coal bunker/rear tank). The Crewe drawing in Talbot's book 'An illustrated History of LNWR Locomotives' shows it 3 foot from the floor and about 2'7" in from the right hand cab sheet. While I suspect the Crewe drawing is correct, in this position the hand wheel seems to almost obstruct the door to the bunker. Can anyone confirm from other sources the handbrake position. (NB Crewe drawings for the LNWR Coal Tank show the hand brake 1'9" in from the right hand cab sheet) I am also puzzled by how much of the rear bunker was water space and how much was for coal. The drawings suggest a U shaped water space with coal in the middle and on top of the U shaped tank. However the only access to the coal seems to be doors that are about 3'9" above the cab floor. Did the LNWR really expect their fireman to lean through the door to dig coal out of the bottom or have I misinterpreted the drawing? Pictures of the rear inside of the cab of LNWR tanks seem very scarce and I have seen no pictures showing the inside of the bunker when empty.

A revised copy is due out at the end of July 2020 so probably best to wait for that http://www.crecy.co.uk/products_new.php?page=2

Archive magazine issue 41 published by Lightmoor Press has a 25 page article on Coed Ely including drawings and photos. The first class 03 arrived in 1970 (on hire), the two regularly used there arrived in 1971 and 1974. The last steam loco was scrapped in 1970.

Looking through my photos I came across a very poor photo of unit 220007 formed 60407, 60885 (a class 221 MS), 60707, 60307 in September 2014. How common were/are swaps between the two classes? They are obviously compatible but this is the only time I have actually seen it.

My Dad remembers cattle being prepared for loading at Llandilo on the Central Wales Line in the 1930’s and 40’s. The livestock market was at the top of Blende Road, a 5 minute walk from the station. The cattle would be herded down the road and when arriving at the station all the station staff would turn out to direct the animals to the cattle pens which were at the north end of the goods yard. It was not unknown for animals to have to be chased off the mainline while this happened. The cattle were then kept in the pens overnight before being despatched the following day by rail.

Second batch of images from Ivatt book

Attached is information from the LMS General Appendix 1931 and Railway Management by E B Ivatts from 1885. The latter is obviously a very different era to that which many of us model and study but it does give quite an insight into how somebody saw livestock handling on the railways. Some of the things he mentions such as lime washing wagons were subsequently changed. Due to the size of the files I will use more than one post.

The wheels at Bescot could just have been from another class 08.

I am trying to trace TOPS numbers allocated to the tenders of preserved steam locomotives that were/are passed for mainline running. So far I have traced two; 98999 LNER Corridor tender no 5332 (this was Flying Scotsman's extra tender and more recently ran with 60019 Bittern) The TOPS number for this I think dates from its use with 60019 where it is an independent vehicle in its own right with conventional buffing gear at both ends 38709 This is carried on Bulleid 5500 gallon tender no 3339 which has been coupled to 34016 Bodmin. The number is carried on the conventional oval yellow plate issued by RESCO when they were responsible for mainline certification of steam locos. Bulleid 6000 gallon tender no 3348 also had one of these plates (from its time with 35005 Canadian Pacific) but I don't know what number it carries. You can see the plate on the frame in this link http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=267 So can anyone provide a list of these TOPS numbers for tenders and are tenders with the current mainline certified locos given TOPS numbers?

RCTS History of the BR Standards Volume 3 states: 'Those sent to Old Oak Common were immediately laid aside in store, although limited use was made of 80070/98, 80131 on Paddington ECS duties before all six were transferred to Shrewsbury and Croes Newydd by November 1962' (page 57)

Without wishing to drag my own post too far off topic quite a lot of the Bulleid pacifics that went to Woodhams lost their tenders in 1969. This included 34072. The tenders went to Duports steel works at Briton Ferry and Llanelli where the chassis were used as ingot carriers. As a result a number of new tenders have been built, including four by Southern Locomotives Ltd. There has also been a lot of movement between locomotives with tenders being hired to different loco owners at various times. Probably the most swapped Bulleid tender in presevation is chassis 3119 (which until recently was fitted with the 5100 gallon tank from tender 3130) which has run with several locos and is owned by the group who have 34039 Boscastle.

Unfortunately there is nothing on the website about the recent moves of tenders

Can anyone confirm exactly which tenders SR Battle of Britain No. 34072 257 Squadron has run with since it returned to use in 2018. I think it ran with the tender intended for 34028 to start with and now has the tender that was behind 34053. Both tenders are Bulleid 5500 gallon built by Southern Locomotives Ltd. They have numbered the tender normally with 34028 as no. 000 and that normally with 34053 no.002 but I don't think they actually carry the numbers.

Definitely Swindon Works. The tender is standing at the rear of the Stock shed. The GWR, in common with some other railway companies had their own gas works at Swindon that supplied town gas to the railway works, station and the original railway village. No.3 gas holder is on the right and No. 4 gas holder is in the background. The gas works closed in 1959 but was not demolished immediately. No.5 gas holder in fact lasted until 2012 having passed to the gas board and its privatised successor. There is an article in Railway Archive No.23 about the gas works. Regarding the tender I agree with others that this is the mock up standard gauge tender built to go with North Star for the GWR centenary celebrations. Justin

Hadn't thought to look at Mike Morant's pages. I agree it is a fantastic resource. 44422 had previously a light intermediate repair at Derby in November 1960 returning to traffic on 8.12.1960. Given the location and appearence I would be fairly confident the photo Mike has shows it on a running in turn after repair at Horwich in June 1963. As the vents are now behind the coal space perhaps they were moved at Horwich. An undocumented tender swap remains a possibility though the Western Region seemed to maintain their records until about September 1964 (there is a WR record card for 44422 at the National archive). Information on the LMR cards at the NRM is very patchy after 1960-61.

As originally designed the LMS Fowler 3500 gallon flush riveted tenders had the air vents situated in the coal space. This caused problems with dirt and coal dust getting into the tanks and tenders built from April 1932 (which also had snap head riveted tanks) had the vents at the back outside the coal space. A program was then started to move the vents on the flush riveted tanks to the rear outside the coal space but not all tenders were dealt with. The question is when did BR stop doing this? My question particularly relates to 4F no 44422. According to the LMR loco record card this received tender 3918 on 31.12.1960 (The WR engine record card records it as 3198 on 4.11.1960, the date is probably right but I think the numbers are in the wrong order as tender 3198 didn't have a water scoop and therefore shouldn't have had air vents either). A photo on Flickr of 44422 at Templecombe on 21.6.1961 shows the vents firmly in the coal space. However by the time the loco reached Woodham Bros at Barry the vents were sited behind the coal space. The last date on the WR loco record card is 28.2.1964 and there is no mention of a tender change up to this date. The loco had a heavy general repair at Horwich between April and June 1963 but this seems a bit late for BR to be messing around moving tank vents. The other alternative is an undocumented tender swap after February 1964. I have seen a photo showing the vents behind the coal space on 44422's tender in July 1964. Has anyone got photos of 44422 immediately after it left Horwich in June 1963 as this might help.

The tender currently with 48305 comprises a MR Johnston underframe that originally had a standard 3500 gallon tank (often called a Fowler tank by us enthusiasts) but now fitted with a Stanier 3500 gallon tank. The chassis and its original tank were last in departmental use at Ferme Park as a sludge carrier numbered ADM1629. Picture of it on Flickr ADM1629 was purchased by Roger Hibbert, owner of 48305 and he scrapped the tank. The Stanier 3500 gallon tank came from tender 4625. This was attached to 45593 in BR days, picture on Flickr here At the very end of their lives Jubilees 45562 and 45593 swapped tenders so that 45593 had a Stanier 4000 gallon tender (which it is now preserved with) and 45562 had tender 4625. However this was not the end of the story, 45562 was taken to the Standard Gauge Steam Trust at Tyseley for spares to be removed and the Stanier 3500 gallon tender was also retained at Tyseley. It remained there for many years until the whole tender was sold to John Bunch on the Mid Hants Railway. At the MHR the tank was removed and the chassis had a new BR1G style tank fitted, this combination now runs with Standard 5 no. 73096. The Stanier tank from 4625 was then sold on to Roger Hibbert who fitted it to the frames of ADM1629. The current number, 4648, carried by the tender is a whim of its owner and doesn't reflect the tenders true identity. As an aside the Stanier 4000 gallon tender that arrived with 48305 at Woodhams, Barry was originally sold with Std 4 4-6-0 no 75079. It was later sold again and is currently being restored for use with 8F 48173.