pauliebanger

Iain, The MX615 is described in the September Newsletter - surely you have subscribed? Here the link to the English Language version: http://www.zimo.at/web2010/newsletters/ZIMO_Newsletter_2021_September_EN.pdf Best regards, Paul

Thanks David, Happy to help with sounds and with explanations. Best regards, Paul

Hi David, I record at 96kHz and 32 bit float, double the frequencies and bit rates of those stipulated for DVD quality sound. I process/edit at the same frequency and rate. During the above stages, I use Shure monitor earphones or Sennheiser monitor headphones. When the project is at a workable stage, I load it to a decoder and play it in the model through whatever speaker is usually fitted without modification of the model, or for manufacturers' r-t-r projects, I normally have an EP version of the model which allows testing and optimisation (with the manufacturers' selected speakers) well before the model comes to market. In this way I can listen to sounds played by the same equipment as the end user will experience. I can then, by an iterative process, optimise the project's sounds for the most likely speakers for each model Best regards, Paul

David, Great that you have sound projects that work for you. You mentioned earlier that you had a couple of steam locos which do not accelerate in the way you wish them to. I suggested that you reduce CV3 to a low value to overcome their sluggishness. Have you had a chance to try this? Did it help? Best regards, Paul

Agreed. A 4ohms and an 8 ohms in parallel is a potential disaster in the making. IF, you keep the volume level low, you could probably get away with doing so, but it would be so easy to forget and to turn the wick up some time in the future which will definitely cause damage. The 699 has a 10W amplifier so danger is lurking! You could use these speakers in series, giving 12ohms total, which would be safe. There will be a small reduction in maximum sound level attainable, but at 10W, you will probably not usually be running sound at maximum, so that's kind of irrelevant. Best regards, Paul

Hi David, Yes, the non standardised way that sound and functions are assigned to F Keys is a possible area of concern. This has been discussed here and in person before. I'm sorry to say that there's not a great appetite due to the difficulties of making such a thing possible. A couple of well known (in their fields) ZIMO sound providers some years ago devised a plan which still exists, to create a standardised way to assign K keys (on ZIMO). Once they had set out their scheme others were invited to follow it. May be some did, but I felt it was too restrictive, especially in not allowing for future developments and the introduction of new features. That's just within the ZIMO family. Now imagine trying to align ESU, D&H, TTS, ZIMO and the US contingent, some of which will not allow 3rd parties to create projects for their decoders. What if ESU were to have a feature on F key X, which was not available on ZIMO? Should a ZIMO functions list just have a 'F Key X not used' entry? Waste the opportunity to use the key for something else? Who would decide? What if F Key Y (on any decoder type) was designated to control a sound which was not actually produced on a particular real loco type? Just leave it blank? Welcome the spare F key to add something else? What if a new control feature became available like, say, Speed Lock or Manual Braking after the standard F key assignments had been agreed? How could they be incorporated and assigned an F key in a useful range given the nature of the feature? When I designed the Manual Brake feature for ZIMO, I also gave a lot of thought about which key to assign the new feature to. I knew that many European DCC controllers would allow users to select either 'Latching' or Momentary' action on any F key. I also knew that most if not all US designed systems locked users into mostly Latching mode, with one, FKey 2, either set as Momentary or could be changed to this from default Latching. In my view, and it was a judgement call, I felt that because of the dynamic nature of the feature, it was more important for the brake control to be assigned to an F key with Momentary action than a horn or whistle. (these are just sounds but Brake key has a function which controls the loco speed). So, as the most widely available Momentry F key is F key 2, that is for me the only logical assignment. But, change the value in CV309 to suit the F key of your choice, and that becomes the new Brake Key for you. There will be different views on this question, of course, but here's mine. The freedom and flexibility available when F key assignments are not set in stone allows the potential for future development and straightforward inclusion of 'new' sounds. With ZIMO, there are a number of ways users can relatively easily re-assign sounds and functions to alternative F keys to suit their individual needs (or to match other sound projects), including their own version of standardisation across their own fleets. Best of both worlds in my view. Best regards, Paul

Hi David, Sorry about the multiple posts, but I want to provide as clear as possible response to your concerns. I also realise that there have been and will be a number of references to 'my sound projects'. The reason I use these for illustration is that I can write accurately about what know is possible. Operating with little simulated inertia or momentum (CVs 3 and 4 respectively), as would be the case on pure DC analogue (some PWM DC contollers can simulate these effects too). is a legitimate and valid way to run your locos. For sound locos, though, there are some advantages of operating with at least modest values in each. The major one being that the sounds playing can be more easily matched to the movement. If, for instance, (try this and you'll see) you were to set CV4 = 0 in a diesel electric sound project, then from high speed quickly reduce the throttle to zero, the model will stop almost instantly but the engine sounds may well still be spooling down. Sound project creators have worked hard to reduce or eliminate this effect with varying success. It's highly dependent upon how the real loco's engine spools down. Drive lock, or the ZIMO equivalent Speed Lock, may be a useful feature for some people. You suggest that this is the way to go. Drive or Speed Lock requires the operator to give up throttle control entirely so that the engine sounds can be manually adjusted. That does not sit well with the need to be in absolute control of the acceleration and deceleration via the throttle in my view. That the feature works is not in any doubt (Speed Lock is in almost all of my projects) but whether it's the best way in absolute terms is moot. Please don't misunderstand my position on this. I'm not against any any feature which enhances the experience for the operator (or audience), but similar effects (disconnection between speed and engine sounds which someone suggested earlier was impossible) can be achieved without giving up control of the road speed to enable it. Although I do include it in my projects, I don't use the feature as it seems counter intuitive to me (that's my personal opinion only). Interesting to note that the new Bachmann Class 47 which uses an ESU decoder does not have drive lock featured in the functions list, but there are a couple of unused F keys so it may be possible to add later. To see what can be achieved by other means, turn up any YouTube video of SLW sound fitted Class 24 which has one of my ZIMO sound projects as the factory fitted sound option and you will see the sort of thing you seek - engine at middling or high power when moving off, engine low power or idling when cruising, even at high speed, or when slowing down. These effects, controlled by the way the throttle is used, have been around on ZIMO for far longer than Drive Lock or Speed Lock features. Best regards, Paul

Hi David, I'm assuming that as you like to have sounds which match the movement, your steamers don't have TTS sound decoders, amd I correct?. TTS are a bit light on the number of CV supported, so may not respond to my suggestions. (I don't know for sure either way). Whilst the reaction to throttle increases may have been set up that way by default, there's no reason that I can think of why you should have to put up with this if it's not to your liking. Change the value in CV3 to something lower, until you get the reaction you require. Give this a go and let us know how you get on. Shunt mode is for close working at high precision, the clue is in the name. it can be a usful feature, but it is, as you comment, a poor compromise 'work around' to achieve what you need. These sort of suggestions probably arise from others who have insufficient knowledge/understanding/experience of how to make the correct CV adjustments required. From my previous response, you will see that there are a lot more ways to vary throttle response in some sound projects. Not all sound projects, even for the same decoder type, are created equal. Caveat emptor. Best regards, Paul

Hello David, This discussion is moving further away from the original question - sound or not - but it's an opprotunity to clear up some misconceptions so here goes. Thanks for explaining some of your concerns. I'll try to address them comprehensively, with factual info, not opinion (unless I identify it as such). I'll also try to be as construcive as possible. But you must realise that the wide range of control potential of DCC is one of it's greatest attributes - what's good for one may not be good for another - but the action of DCC decoders can be easily adjusted to suit either. No one needs to make a decision based soley on how a project works 'out of the box' (though I agree it's nice if you own preferences are met instantly) provided it can be easily tailored by the end user with a competent DCC system. Your first words were, 'Perhaps it's choice'. I think choice is very important, especially when the costs are what they are. A range of operational choices is the very essence of what I try to include in my projects. Unfortunately, offering a high degree of choice is sometimes viewed as being complicated. I'll take each topic at a time for clarity. Manual Braking The type of control you prefer is similar to DC analogue, a typical model train operational style. There's nothing wrong with that, stick with what you like and works for you. After all DC analogue itself works as well now as it always did. But what you see as a binary choice between projects with manual braking or without is not so in reality. Although I have included manual braking in all my projects for 5 or 6 years since I developed this feature for ZIMO, this reflects what the majority feedback I get tells me end users prefer. Many say that if the project does not have manual braking, they will not chose that project. A year or so later, ESU introduced manual braking - you'll find it on Biff's projects as well as many others. So, it's possible to realistically simulate braking other than just turning off the power (analogue) or turning off power to the motor (DCC) with the throttle control. But, that does not preclude any user who prefers not to use a manual brake control (on any decoder type) from operating the same project in a traditional analogue style, either at all times or only when at an exhibition to provide some uniformity of reaction in this respect. All that's required is to reduce CV4 to either nil or a very low number. This is very basic DCC stuff, nothing to do with sound specifically. The brake key's action will become insignificant and the model will react instantly to throttle movements. In the same way, reducing CV3 will allow 'instant' acceleration if that's what you want. DCC allows any user to change how their models react, and helps with smoothing out acceleration and deceleration without needing constant input from the operator. But, your understanding/description of how the manual brake key operates on ZIMO is not entirely accurate; there's no requirement to operate the brake key repeatedly to increase brake force. I described earlier the progressive nature of the ZIMO manual brake feature. The longer the key is engaged, the greater the braking force applied. This is not a linear releationship, twice the duration will give 4 times the braking force. and so on. Acceleration. My ZIMO projects have, by default, CV3 value around 40 or 50 (ESU equivalents are quite different) which represents the 'heavy train' mode that is the default state. So, moderate throttle openings will produce the gradual speed increase usually evident with real life loaded trains. Of course, the user has full control over this, provided in several different ways in my projects. 1. Reduce CV3 to low values - effective but not convenient on the move. 2. Engage the 'Light Engine mode'. This not only effectively changes CV3 and CV4 to lower values (temporarilly, whilst this mode is engaged) but is usually accompanied in my sound projects with a different set of engine sounds to represent a less stressed loco - easy to use as it is an F key and the feature can be toggled on and off veru=y conveniently to suit the conditions/needs. 3. Open the throttle rapidly. If this feature is enabled in the project (and can easily be enabled by any user at any time if not) gentle increases in throttle will cause the model to accelerate exactly in accordance with CV3 values. Fling the throttle open fully in one sweep and the decoder automatically over-rides the setting in CV3, producing initial acceleration rates around three times that which would result from the current CV3 setting alone. The rates will converge as the requested speed is approached. I believe this is a unique ZIMO feature, but happy to be corrected. This is the most convenient way to vary how an individual model accelerates - controlled only by the way the throttle is operated. 4. Shunt mode. Any F key can be set up to either reduce road speed by half (for the same throttle setting) or reduce CVs 3 and 4 by a user selectable degree, or indeed both of these effects onto a single F key. (the usual default mode in my projects). Now, some may see this as confusing overkill, but the point is, it provides a very high degree of choice to the operator. If there was only a single way of operating it would definitely simplify things, but in my experience any commodity which claims to be 'one size fits all' usually translates to 'fits no one particularly well'. So, for an immersive interaction with one loco, use any of the above in any combination - they've been designed to work seamlessly together. Does this require more attention? Probably. If all that's required is a trainset style experience/reaction to the throttle, that's equally valid and equally possible. My personal perspective is that I don't want to operate my models as models, but as close as possible to what happens on real locos, with the decoder doing the heavy lifting with regard to dynamically adjusting motor control to match the physics of 70 ton plus machines, whilst I operate controls which although in a physically different form are available on the real thing . The decoder has no mind of it's own, so certain criteria have to be specified initially or be changed during operations but that's how each can be 'tuned' to the formation, layout and user's driving style. I'll come back to the other points in a later post. Best regards, Paul

I don't take this to heart in any way. All are entitled to their own views. I may not agree with them, but I respect other's perspectives. (Mostly) I also hope you don't take my response in the wrong way. A personal preference one way or another is fine. What I take exception to is when people construct arguments based upon half truths, outdated facts and misinformation to try to persuade others of the supriority of their position. That comment is not aimed at anyone in particular, just stating my position. You say you don't like doors opening. OK. no argument. Do your own thing. There's no mileage in trying to persuade you otherwise. But it's worth remembering that most sounds are optional - the user decides what should play. Bit like a TV - you might not like the same programs as I do, or played at the same volume, but then each can decide what suits with the press of a button or two. Or one could do without a TV altogther. Like the sound of engines working but don't like doors, or coal shovelling, or station announcements or sausages frying? Fine, don't turn them on. There's no coertion. Or are you really saying 'I don't want other people to be able to play those sounds in my presence because I don't like to hear them'? That's a whole other, darker, discussion. It's fair to say that I think about the needs of those who like sounds over those who do not since that's the principal focus of my modelling hobby. I don't see a problem in that any more than another person extolling the virtues of 3D printing or card based modelling. There are many aspects to this hobby, and room for all. One creates a thing. Some find it interesting and useful, others are less enthusiastic while some are decidedly against. That's the nature of it. Having stated the things you don't want to hear in a sound project, you kindly mention the things you would like to hear. Almost as if these are not currently available. Speed-related Flange Squeal is featured in all my current sound projects, usually F9. (manually selectable so that those who don't like the sound of flange squeal can avoid it, LOL). F9 engaged when standing - no flange squeal. engaged when moving slowly - low speed graunch, whilst at higher speeds - more high pitched sounds. loco comes to a halt whilst sounds playing - flange sound stops. Banging of loose coupled wagons? Thanks, another chance to illuminate a special feature in my sound projects and something of which you may approve. Enable 'auto wagon buffering'. Typically F13, but depends on application. Any user who can't abide this level of operational immersivity - no problem, don't turn it on. This is what happens depending upon your driving style: No movement, no buffering sounds. Gentle acceleration, no buffering sounds. Aggressive acceleration (rough handling) wagons buffer and three link couplings rattle automatically. Decoder judges your driving each time you accelerate and selects the appropriate play/not play response. Similarly, on gentle deceleration, no rattling Brake harshly - wagons rattle On stopping, further 'closing up' The Minerva Peckett model was based upon a real dock loco. The project I created for that model had the sound of Gulls on one of the upper, rarely use F keys. Projects I've created for NG operators have included Engish country birdsong, dogs barking, horses, sheep and cattle making their own contributions. A couple of days ago, to fit with the theme correctly tied to the loco in question, I agreed to add a double barrel shotgun. These are not suitable for or desired by the average modeller, but if it can be recorded, and there's sufficient free memory available after all the essential sounds have been compiled why not add them, provided there's the abilty to use or not use them? It's just a bit of fun. (I draw the line at including profanities as I have no control over who may get to hear them). Anyway, time for bed - I've got my booster jab booked for tomorrow morning. Best regards, Paul

David, I agree with most of what you have said but I'm interested in exploring the issues you raise in these two paragraphs. No DCC decoder, sound or not, should force the equivalent of 2.5 miles to come to a halt, and I'm pretty sure that no such thing exists as support for CV4 is pretty universal. This is most likely due to User Error. If CV4 (momentum or deceleration) is set at a low value, commonly half of the value in CV3, then modest distances are required. If you turn off CV4, with a value of zero, the model will stop like a DC trainset (i.e.more or less instantly). So I'm afraid that what you describe is a poorly set up decoder, unless that's what the owner intended, which can be sorted out in a few seconds. In more recent times, some fully programmable decoders have been equipped with an option to incorporate a manual brake key. This changes the picture, since the operator now has both an acceleration and a deceleration control. This means that high values in CV4 can be set, allowing the simulation of coasting for long durations if required. But it is still possible to stop the model reliably where needed by engaging the manual brake control*. Or to reduce speed quickly to a lower speed, say for a speed restricted portion of a layout. *on ZIMO decoders, the braking force is exponentially proportional to the duration for which the manual brake is applied, which makes it progressive and a very good simulation of the real thing. Of course, the brake efficiency can be adjusted to suit the operators needs. When released, the model will continue at the new lower speed, still responding to the value in CV4 as appropriate. As you say, over to the user to know how real locos/trains operate and what functionality the decoder is capable of delivering. A couple of 'next generation' features you mention have been with us for some time already. Bachmann's r-t-r sound fitted Class 158 has several different door opening features. If the model is standing without engine sounds playing, activating F key 18 will play the 'doors opening' sound, deactivating causes the 'doors closing' sound. The latter is not accompanied by the sound of the Hustle Alarm. (Driver entering before starting up?) If the model's engine sounds have been started, F key 8 controls the doors operations, In this case, the sound of the doors is played, but is accompanied in the correct order by illumination or extinguishing of the door interlock lights and sounding of the Hustle Alarm. Furthermore, these door sounds cannot be operated if the model is already in motion. As on real 158s. If the doors are 'open' , it is impossible to drive the model until the doors have been closed and 'locked' as signified by the interlock light turning off. Again, 158's can't drive off with doors not closed. That all seems pretty good, to me and demonstrates the advantages of DCC and how they can be exploited. Firebox flicker wiith sound of coal shovelling. Been around for many years in my steam projects. Better still if you get firebox flicker when standing and firehole doors are 'opened', (whether or not shovelling sound plays) which changes from flickering to pulsing brighter in sync with the chuffs (each exhaust event, or chuff, momentarliy draws the fire hotter) if the loco moves. Wink! Mostly, what can be achieved is limited by the imagination and skill of the sound project's creator. Best regards, Paul

Simon, I greatly value the insights you have given me, and the assistance you have facilitated. I will always defer to your knowledge and experience of diesel locomotives - it's fair to say that my DE projects have been enhanced by what I gained from you. However, there are some points I need to address regarding sound projects and their capabilities. Starting off: Fortunately, modellers do not need to worry about wear and tear to the same extent as owners of vintage machines, thus giving us a greater license. My ZIMO diesel electric sound projects provide for a number of different 'take offs', using a variety of control techniques to achieve them. They all have options for gentle or spirited departures, not only with the engine sounds but also real-time variable inertia and momentum. I know Bif's and other providers have similar features. This will enable any user to select the most appropriate 'take off' There’s no reason why a ‘Light Engine’ Pannier should chuff in the same way as when pulling a heavy train. Look to the operator. What should happen is: engage ‘Light Engine’ mode (F key) and select the appropriate ‘reverser’ position, before setting off. The volume, timbre, duration and rate of exhaust beats will indeed change in real time. Select a different ‘reverser’ position and the change with begin immediately, though I usually design my projects to gently cross-fade to the new set to prevent jarring changes. If Speed Lock is set up on ZIMO decoders, when activated with the appropriate F key, the speed remains temporarily constant and the ‘regulator’ now becomes a way to select loud or soft chuffs. But as well as these straightforward manual controls provided to influence the basic project , ZIMO decoders can be set up to respond automatically and in real time to changes in load. I’m pretty sure ESU and Tsunami have something similar. With ZIMO, any user can set this up with any sound project with a competent DCC controller. Here’s how: Determine ‘Norms’ for that specific model on straight and level track. CV302 = 75 (forwards) or CV302 = 76 (rearwards). An automatic test run is performed (5m required) and the norms are stored in decoder memory. Then using CVs 275 to 280 the volume changes, thresholds and other parameters can be set. When moving, the decoder monitors changes in EMF (compared to the norms) and makes load dependent sound changes, in the light of controlling parameters in these CVs. It should be obvious why this cannot be done by the sound provider or manufacturer as each model must have their specific norms. So, load dependent sound changes are possible, but it requires a bit of commitment from the user to activate. Sound decoders and the projects which run on them are far more complex (and capable) than many users realise. The features in any given project will be the result of the creator’s knowledge of the real life subject and of the abilities of the decoder software. As I’ve said before, not all sound projects are created equal. I’ve had some shockers sent to me for re-blowing. It’s a very common to hear ‘it can’t do that’ when the reality is often ‘I don’t know how to make it do that’. Please, everyone. Read the User Notes. Best regards, Paul

Excuse me. I was paraphrasing the views of the original poster I quoted, not that I think they are OK. I expressed no opinion either way. Extracting and quoting a single line out of context and boldening the text distorts my point somewhat. Actually, I agree that the current speakers have limitations. I recognise this as well as the next man. I've heard many of my carefully crafted projects strangled at the point of delivery - the speaker installation -but that's beyond my control The difference is they way we weigh any such limitations. My persional view is that the difference between sound or no sound at all is profound enough for me to chose sound every time. If perfection was possible, I would of course chose that. I just don't believe that simply because perfection is not possible, I should do without sound completely. You have expressed a different opinion, with which I will not argue. Best regards, Paul

Here we go again. We'll get the usual contributors ,on either side of this argument, mostly expressing opinions dressed up as facts. Paraphrasing the points made in the above post. Some operators do not read the instructions sufficiently to know the simple steps (for ZIMO decoders, that's by using F keys - the clue is in the Functions List) required to reduce sound levels. This results in discomfort for some individuals. This causes disenchantment for some people. Sounds and speakers are OK, or at least cause no issue. I think you've made a very good case for running with sound attenuated to comfortable levels, and probably best if the sound in the 'not in use' models is either turned off or temporarily muted (by F key use). I agree. My observations in no particular order: Did you help your friend by explaining/demonstrating how to adjust volume? When criticising default sound levels, please remember that whilst DCC users have the simple option of attenuating the volume, DC users cannot so easilly turn volume up if they find it too low by default. Manufactures and sound providers have wider considerations than the narrow view each of us take for ourselves. Compromise is required. Sound projects are best considered as starting points, ripe for customisation and optimisation for an individuals' or layouts' requirements. For DCC users there are many parameters which can be adjusted to suit individual needs/taste. (Two people may buy the same piece of recorded music but may listen to it in entirely different ways). Engine restarts after stalling. Well, some may say that if everthing is in order, there's no reason for stalling. I know that's not the reality for many, but it's possible to set up the decoder to carry on from where it left off i. e . to not restart each time. In my case, I fit stay alive capacitors which virtually eliminate stalling and consequential engine restarts, so that's a non-issue. Others will disagree with my choice, no problem. Real loco yards are often very noisey, (when you are in them) and it's not possible to turn them down. I usually come away with a headache and ringing in my ears, so perhaps the model is not so far removed from reality by this measure. If you are for or against sound, enjoy your modelling. Best regards, Paul

Every often cited and false trope in one post. The second sentence is risible. Like sound locos or not - personal choice, no problem. No need to explain one's own choice either. But making outlandish claims in support of a fixed view will always need to be called out for what they are. Sibelius, (I have that software package), musicians, chuff generators all required for steam locos? Maybe you know of such a system? Interesting that you think that synthesising chuffs is preferable to recording the real thing. To me, this just demonstrates your lack of knowledge about how the exhaust beat, (chuff) sounds are generated in a sound project. With TTS sound decoders, the type installed in the Hornby model you refered to (was it a West Country or a Merchant Navy?) individual chuffs are, by design, not synchronised with wheel rotation, so, as is well known TTS decoders cannot sync chuffs to wheel rotation as the speed varies. These decoders are a special case, is indicative as to their budget price, and why many avoid this type for steam locos. (On the other hand, many users are happy with the price/quality compromise, so not my place to judge). The usual method top draw brands use is to have a number of recorded samples of chuff sounds recorded live from real locos of the class depicted store in the decoder's memory. Some will be recorded at low speed some from higher speed, some will be from light engine movements some will be when hauling a train, and in my ZIMO sound projects for ZIMO decoders, I also record chuffs at different cut-offs or reverser positions. When operating, and in real time, the decoder constantly monitors road speed, direction, current draw, 'regulator' position, 'reverser' position, acceleration rate, deceleration rate, manual brake control status and more. Using these, the decoder selects the most appropriate chuff sample (or coasting sound) to play, and at the rate appropriate to the wheel rotation. Obviously, if the model's wheels actually lose traction and accereate violently, the decoder will adjust the chuffs selected (much shorter at high speed) and play yhem at the appropriate rate. I totally refute your different claim on this point. The perception of the quality of sound is an individual thing, there's no doubt. It's even fair to say that a specific sound project may not cover all the the nuances of the real thing, though of course even the real thing can sound different in the hands of a different crew, and almost certainly different from another specimen of the same class. But claiming that sound projects react in the way you describe to support your view that control is poor is a straw man argument. I've no idea what you you've been listening to, or how long ago you formed this blinkered view, but a good sound project will be matched as closely as possible to the physics of the real thing. D-E locos sounding like D-M? Popycock. It's perfectly possible to pull away wth the engine at 'full power', automatically spooling down when acceration ceases, or when a field divert kicks in. In the same way bowling along at full speed with the engine at 'idle' or 'cruising' power is routine. Of course, the way a user sets up and operates a sound fitted model (including volume level) is mainly beyond the control of the manufacturer. Best regards, Paul

Fred, Thank you for creating this interesting document and for posting the link here. Best regards, Paul

Hi Steve, That's me in a difficult position. LOL. I'm a committed ZIMO sound decoder user (and sound project provider). I've tested many alternative solutions, none of which have been able to persuade me to change. In view of personal experience, I cannot endorse any of them. Your opinion may well differ - that's fine by me. There are a number of 'layout' based sound systems from the primitive 'sound in a box' type systems to ultra complex like the loco tracking sound system within JMRI (free software, most know it for Decoder Pro). There are some on-board solutions such as MyLoco Sound https://mylocosound.com/ and Train-Tech http://train-tech.com/ which might fit your needs Best regards, Paul

When starting from scratch with DC locos, the usual and most convenient way is to fit a sound decoder. This provides for motor and function (e.g.lighting) control plus the sound in one self contained package. The least expensive sound decoder option is Hornby TTS, generally regarded as good sounds for diesel locos (potential sound problems with Steam, but not for your stable). Not the finest motor control available, but satisfactory results are possible. (This will depend upon what you consider to be an acceptable standard. The available range of sounds does not currently cover all the models in your list. There is no upgrade path with TTS, it is what it is when you buy it and remains so for as long as it lasts. Cost of TTS with speaker is in the order of £40. Unfortunately, TTS will not operate as a sound decoder on DC analogue. There is a small range of, mainly steam, UK sound projects on D&H decoders from Locoman. Cost around £95. These can be reprogrammed with new sounds (using the correct equipment). The two fully updateable sound decoder brands with comprehesive ranges of most loco types are ESU Loksound and ZIMO. These, with your choice of loco sound, will cost between £99 and £125 depending on the brand chosen and in some cases the sound project loaded. These can be configured to operate with sound on DC analogue (normally the default setting). The decoder can identify the power source type (DC or DCC) and reacts accordingly. With no separate function buttons of a typical DC controller, you will not have access to manually controlled functions (lights, manual working brakes) or sounds (Horns, coupling, vocals etc) but all automatic sounds and any randomly generated sounds within the sound project will play in the same way as on DCC. With ZIMO decoders, if you fit a Stay Alive capacitor pack it will also operate on DC analogue - other brands specifically exclude this option according to their operating manuals/technical advice. Whether stay alive pack for more reliable running is important to you, only you can decide. Most of your models should operate without them if (along with your trackwork) they are properly cleaned and maintained. However, I suggest you consider in more detail the options which open up with DCC over DC if you specifically intend to run sound fitted models. Sound on DC is OK if you add one or two sound fitted locos to run alongside your non-sound DC models, but it's not ideal if you intend to have a large fleet of sound equipped locos in my view. That's entirely your decision, of course. If you hold fast to DC analogue, you will be paying a lot of money to equip all your models with sound, yet not gaining all the control features which would be available on DCC. If your layout is properly wired for DC it will operate on DCC too, with little or no modification. (that's generalised - there's no point in getting into pedantic mode at this stage of your decision making). An upgradable DCC system can be bought new for less than £200, and is normally a one-off purchase to opertae all your models now and in the future. This is modest in comparison with the overall costs to sound fit your entire fleet. Of course, DCC would open the door for TTS sound, which would considerably reduce your overall costs to equip your current fleet, with reduced costs over the 'full fat' ESU and ZIMO offerings for subsequent purchases. There's no need to rush to a decision so get as much info as possible. Have you considered the alternative ways of adding some sound to DC analogue which does not require a DCC decoder? Best regards, Paul

Shame it's not Breguet

Correct, that's why, when it runs, it now usually departs from Dduallt, below the Deviation. I should, of course, have said 'was built', as I was referencing the speed of the historical operation described by The Johnster in his post. My mistake. i would imagine that the continous gradient was actually 'lost' when the Tanygrisiau reservoir created for the powerstation blocked then flooded the existing line just below Baenau FFestiniog. The building of the Deveation, being the engineering solution selected to circumvent the obstruction, was a much later event. Best regards, Paul

I've had the privilege to ride the gravity train in recent times and in excellent weather, too, thankfully. Still uses a bugle as AWD but now the brake operators are concentrated towards the front of the formation. Given that the line is built with a continuous gradient down from Blaenau Ffestiniog, high speed would have been possible but the tight curves on much of the route would have been an inhibiting factor (I hope). The FR's modern day max speed is 20 mph. Whilst it certainly felt much faster being so close to the ground and to the sides of cutttings it would probably been around 20mph and that was fast enough for me! i could be more sure of the speed if I had timed the run over the known distance from Dduallt to Minffordd but I was so excited I almost forgot to press 'Record' on my equipment, let alone look at my watch. LOL. I agree, a motorised sound fitted gravity train would be cool, but sadly, rather too niche. (and before anyone says otherwise, there's plenty of noise to capture. It might not have motive power, on the way down, but the gravity train is far from silent). Best regards, Paul

Wednesday 3rd November 10.00am

DC only, no decoder, model will operate as you can expect on DC, plus some lighting will be functional of which some may be switched off manually with hardware micro switches. No sound other than that generated by the model and its movement. DCC non-sound decoder fitted, as above when running on DC (controlling voltages similar to that of sound decoders listed below) when on DCC additional functionality wil be available, such as manual braking (if included and activated) control of fans and so on. DCC sound decoder fitted: On DCC, the full DCC sound experience. I can't advise on this particular model's DC abiities, but since Bachmann now promote their models as 'sound fitted' instead of 'DCC sound' there will be as much functionality as possible made available to DC users. In general, you can expect as you gently increase voltage to get some lighting as standard (around 3-4V), some of which may be able to be switched off with hardware micro switches, followed by engine start-up, (circa 5v) the motor will not be energised at this point, so the engine sound will be at idle. Further increase in volts will cause the engine sound to ramp up and the model to move. The project may be set up to allow some other sounds (brake release, start horn) to play before the loco moves (so called start delay). After this the model will move and the engine sound swill transition up or down according to the project settings. Reduce volts to slow the model and the engine sounds will spool down. the movement and sounds and lights on thresholds will be at different (lower) voltage thresholds so it should be possible to reduce road speed to zero (volts around 5v) and have the loco standing with engine idling again. In addition, there will be automatically generated sounds - brake release sounds and brake squeal. There may also be some Randomy Generated sounds, compressor, fans (which may also trigger the fans to operate simultaneously) exhauster and maybe others. What you will not be able to control is any feature or sound which requires manual input, for the pretty obvious reason that on DC there's normally no access to operating buttons to do so. Whilst there will not be the full 'DCC experience' you will be likely to hear a large proportion of the sounds and the starting and slow speed contol will be as good as the corresponding DCC control. You'll need to make your own mind up regarding the relative values of each of the above options. Best regards, Paul

I was refering to gimmicky sounds, not essential functions, so there's no difference between us on this. However, depending upon whether the manufacturer provides physically separate wiring to each LED which needs to be separately controlled, assigning functions to F keys is just a question of mapping. If sounds are excluded from projects, it's currently impossible for any to be added by end users without a complete reblow. So, looking from someone elses perspective, it might be preferable to have sounds loaded and assigned for use 'out of the box'. Those who require accesss to alternative lighting arrays can easilly fix that with a bit of programming. Some sound projects are in circulation where there are sounds loaded to the decoder but not assigned/used in the 'default' sound project. e.g. My Class 08 for ZIMO and Legomanbiffo's Class 08 each have the option to select between wooden or metal doors, and choice of whistle or horn. There are much more economical ways to assign lighting functions to models than using one F key for each LED in an array. Subject to the model's wiring arrangements, it would be possible to arrange control of all 10 functions on the Hatton's Class 66 in any possible prototypical array using a single F key plus a single CV change. Granted that this may not be quite as convenient as having individual F keys, but it 'saves' 9 keys for other uses - maybe something others would prefer - and ensures that the correct lamps are illuminated. (user does not forget to switch one or other on or off). Whether prototypical lighting is more likely to add more realism than prototypical sounds will depend on an individual's point of view and the era modelled. In green diesel days, tail lighting was provided by oil lamps fitted to the lamp brackets (usually depicted on the models). The body mounted electric red lights were not to be used. Until comparatively recently, any lighting was used only in the case of poor visibility - fog, driving rain or snow, darkness . How many layouts representing earlier times are operated with the prototypical environmental conditions where the use of lights at all would be prototypical? I've no idea nor any evidence to support any assertion, so I will not do so. Turning cab lights on or off automatically is neat trick, available on ESU and ZIMO decoders, but it's not prototypical - it's modellers' licence for convenience. Whilst it's true that the forward cab light would not normally be illuminated when moving, in reality it would more often be extinguished well before the loco is moved, to allow the driver's eyes to adjust. Also, they were quite often left switched on when moving about on shed. On the other hand unless there's a particular need, the cab light would not be switched on each time the loco comes to a halt, for the same 'night vision' reasons. So, whilst a useful trick on a model, it's hard to see how this could be described as 'realistic'. Point is - there are lots of different viewpoints. Manufacturers take account of as many as possible for the model to be successful, but there's probably always going to be room for optimisation for individual users' needs. Fortunately, in a model world where most are happy to ignore the incorrectly sized and spaced sleepers holding rails of incorrect profile and height to form track far too narrow to be realistic, there's room for all viewpoints. LOL Best regards, Paul

I'm with Roy on this. Sound projects need to include options for all types of users. If you don't need door slams, don't use that feature. But we should not restrict the options for someone else for whom the sound is an integral part of 'getting into' a loco and driving it. As far as I can tell, all the important functions and main sounds like engine, brakes compressors and fans are included in most sound projects, other lesser or niche features and sounds are only then added subject to the amount of unused memory remaining and the number of F keys unused. There are quite a few projects extant for ESU and ZIMO decoders which already have multiple features* operated by a single F key. In these, the actual total of sounds/functions exceeds the number of physical F keys so that's not always a hard and fast limit. Rarely will the decoder or sound project restrict what can be achieved. *Usually, some other function or characteristic will automatically make the selection. I would be very surprised if any sound project creator would include what some may see as gimmicky features in preference to the essential components. But, although decoders are capable of much more in the way of lighting control than is usually presented, they are restricted to what the basic model design allows. It's also important to remember that the models' design must first and foremost operate satisfactorilly on analogue DC, so this is the base from which all is built. Creative DIY and after market solutions are available for those who wish to expand this, but usually this requires modification or replacement of the original PCBs. The number of such modified models probably indicates the degree of 'user dissatisfaction' with what the manufacturers provide. e.g. if you only wish for one Illuminated tail lamp on your SLW Class 24, slip a bit of opaque material inside the body to cover the 'not to be operated' LED. This simple solution is far easier than it would be to add a 'missing' LED for running in the more modern era. Best regards, Paul