"Not as described" getting worse?

[melmerby]

On 14/04/2021 at 15:48, melmerby said:

I've had a small delivery from an e-bay seller that was not the correct item. These are brand new items and the total including postage was £1.99.

I would hope that it was a simple mistake as it was the wrong voltage bridge rectifiers (too low).

(He sells the same thing in several different voltage ratings and the price relects the voltage selected.)

When I opened the package shortly after it had arrived at Monday lunchtime I noticed they were not the correct item, so I messaged the seller using e-bay's contact form, explaining that they were incorrect.

 

How long should I wait for a reply before escalating it officially?

OK

Seller has not replied after contacting him/her on Monday

What's the best procedure?

When I looked at the options for "wrong item sent" and wanting to return I'm expected to show that I have returned them.

I'm not going to do that until I know I'm going to get my postage back.

[RJS1977]

It's not just on eBay where things aren't described properly.

 

I recently bought a Really Useful Box which was advertised online as being 1200mm long, in which to store/transport Niederau.

 

When the box arrived, I measured it, and its external dimension was 1170mm, internal dimension 1140. Too short for Niederau, although ironically it would have fitted in the cardboard box the box came in!

 

I don't blame the vendor for this - RUB have given incorrect dimensions.

[adb968008]

On 13/01/2021 at 22:44, John M Upton said:

It is nice to actually have a description!!  There are too many now who simply use the default wording Ebay automatically stick in when listing is created or worst still (and a real bug bear of mine) the simple description 'Condition as photos'.  

Buyers are their own worst enemy on that one.

 

I used to but good descriptions, but then you’d get extreme nit pickers who say you didnt declare xyz and marge largesse demands.

 

its easier to say nowt and tell the buyer to look at the pictures, my problems went away as soon as I started that.

Edited April 17, 2021 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 19/01/2021 at 11:09, Crosland said:

Even a  brand new item in a shop may have been opened and handled, test run, tried for size, etc, etc,... It can still be sold as "brand new" with all warranties intact.

 

As always, it's complicated, and context is everything. What eBay say may differ to the outcome if tested in the courts.

 

i like how its defined on here myself, theres “New” and theres “Unused”... I think that separates it nicely.

 

I suspect ebay allows New, because their return policy is way stronger than legal requirements on warranties.. you can return anything for any reason at anytime, regardless what the seller says and they leave it up to you the buyer to be honest about the reason for its return and protect you from any come back from the seller, as long as you exactly follow their returns process and don't be sidetracked by the seller or try your own stunts.

Edited April 17, 2021 by adb968008

[robert17649]

On 14/01/2021 at 16:47, Hal Nail said:

 

As soon as something has been pre-owned the warranties, guarantees, right to return etc are lost to the next purchaser. That's what's key here, not how much its been fondled. I think the definition of brand new actually says the box hasn't been opened but I might be wrong on that.

That may be true in many cases but we purchased a Korean motor car when it was three years old and were surprised to find that the company concerned held to the five year warranty when it developed a problem. Its never gone wrong since(touching all the wood I can find) and we(me and SWMBO) will certainly buy another from that company.

[adb968008]

On 14/01/2021 at 16:47, Hal Nail said:

 

As soon as something has been pre-owned the warranties, guarantees, right to return etc are lost to the next purchaser. That's what's key here, not how much its been fondled. I think the definition of brand new actually says the box hasn't been opened but I might be wrong on that.

ebay defines it as...

 

Quote

New: A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in the original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in the retail shop. If the item comes straight from the manufacturer it may be delivered in non-retail packaging, such as an unprinted box or plastic bag.

Nothing about warranties, middle men etc.

 

don't forget ebay is a US company, retailers don't usually offer warranties, or refunds most things are sold as seen.. you have to goto the manufacturer in the event of issues.
The US is a more flat sales culture than the UK, they are less protective of middlemen, and assumes anyone can sell anything... hence where cowboys has a different meaning there to here. Despite our protestations, UK law is still closer to European protectionist measures.

 

Theres good and bad aspects to this in both US and UK law, we like to protect our shop keepers and maintain structure, which imho introduces artificial barriers that protects and increases prices. But flip side US law doesn't offer much consumer protection, especially when it comes to defects or changing your mind. Ebay offers both a flat selling structure to individuals, but protects consumers, but I think it lacks on intervention when it comes to issues relating to shipping, each time it tries, it seems to end badly.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by adb968008

[Ruffnut Thorston]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

OK

Seller has not replied after contacting him/her on Monday

What's the best procedure?

When I looked at the options for "wrong item sent" and wanting to return I'm expected to show that I have returned them.

I'm not going to do that until I know I'm going to get my postage back.

The best way of initiating a return in the case of a non communicating seller, is to use the eBay returns system.

 

You can start the process, and eBay then contact the seller, and require them to purchase a “label” for the return postage.

 

This would then be sent to the buyer by email.

 

The buyer does have to print out the “label”, and attach it to the repacked item to be returned.

 

Then, usually, the package needs to be taken to a post office for dispatch...

 

The “label” is a tracked postage method.

 

The eBay “label” is also cheaper than the postage price from a post office...

[Hal Nail]

33 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

ebay defines it as...

 

Nothing about warranties, middle men etc.

I've introduced a rabbit hole by mentioning warranties! That definition of new you quoted is very clear and my original point was a lot of things people have owned and then decided to sell on, do not meet it and shouldn't be listed as new however immaculate the vendor may think they are.

 

I wouldn't pay anywhere as much for a used item as I could buy new from a (discount) retailer, where I definitely have consumer rights and that's where incorrectly listing something as new has an impact.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I've introduced a rabbit hole by mentioning warranties! That definition of new you quoted is very clear and my original point was a lot of things people have owned and then decided to sell on, do not meet it and shouldn't be listed as new however immaculate the vendor may think they are.

 

I wouldn't pay anywhere as much for a used item as I could buy new from a (discount) retailer, where I definitely have consumer rights and that's where incorrectly listing something as new has an impact.

 

 

 

I agree on that, if theres a retailer near to or cheaper buying off ebay makes no sense.

But ive have no issues buying “new” off ebay if its a private seller, I find model railway warranties aren't worth salt.. its usually sold out or no spares available.
 

At least off ebay I get to return it at the sellers cost, whether they bleat about it or not, unlike my brand new class 90 this week from a well known retailer, who is quibbling about postage costs and is arguing the damage was by the post office, not his fault and wants me to goto the manufacturer instead, saying its going to take months going via him... i’m stuck with a choice of a pointless fight over a fivers postage, or paying postage to send it to Bachmann... as its the only sold out version i’ll just fix it myself.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by adb968008

[GWR-fan]

In my opinion if you purchased a new item from a store then whether you use it or not the item is "used" or secondhand and should not be described as new.   If you are a dealer purchasing an item new from a distributor or from a manufacturer direct,  for the intention of reselling the item at retail, then the item is new.  If you purchased an item as a consumer then it is used regardless of its "new" condition.  The daughters of a long time collector in Australia, now deceased,  are disposing of his vast estate of model items on eBay and through a website.  They describe the majority of his items,  many up to forty years old as new condition and in many cases charge the equivalent of a comparative new price as if the item was recently manufactured.  The items may be unused condition but they are definitely not new.

[Hal Nail]

19 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But ive have no issues buying “new” off ebay if its a private seller
 

At least off ebay I get to return it at the sellers cost

 

7 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

In my opinion if you purchased a new item from a store then whether you use it or not the item is "used" or secondhand and should not be described as new.   If you are a dealer purchasing an item new from a distributor or from a manufacturer direct,  for the intention of reselling the item at retail, then the item is new.  If you purchased an item as a consumer then it is used regardless of its "new" condition.

Exactly my point but I'm warming to the idea that people listing incorrectly doesnt necessarily disadvantage the buyer. If there is anything wrong with the item at all, it is easy to prove it wasnt new. Perhaps less clear cut disputing how used!

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Hal Nail

[John M Upton]

Case in point, I just purchased a Proto 2000 HO scale GP30, never been used, mint in box still in the (rather odd in my opinion) method of body separate from the chassis packing that they used to do.  Must be fifteen plus years old.

 

Seller correctly described it as used (spares/repair) because, even though to the untrained eye it looks to be as new and factory fresh, it does have the standard issue cracked gears (well, it did have, just finished swapping them out, sweet as a nut now).

 

Very good seller meets understanding purchaser here.

 

In a different scenario, another seller would have described as new/sealed/mint etc and then got a nasty shock when the purchaser who may well have paid twice or more what I paid for it comes back and says it doesn't work properly.

 

Testing before listing, clear accurate detailed descriptions and knowing what you are selling (and buying) are vital!

 

[Hal Nail]

1 minute ago, John M Upton said:

Testing before listing

Unless it is new

 

hat, coat....

[John M Upton]

1 minute ago, Hal Nail said:

Unless it is new

 

hat, coat....

 

I think even then, a reputable seller should test it before sale or at least be prepared to test it on request.

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 

 

Testing before listing,

 

If all sellers did that, and used all 12 free pictures accurately around the model, I suspect the complaints/returns would be hugely reduced. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by adb968008

[Blandford1969]

46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If all sellers did that, and used all 12 free pictures accurately around the model, I suspect the complaints/returns would be hugely reduced. 

Based on some lately that those photos were of the contents of the box showing etchings and fittings rather than just 6 of the box and a vague out of focus one of the etches wrapped in paper that you can't zoom to look at . 

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The best way of initiating a return in the case of a non communicating seller, is to use the eBay returns system.

 

You can start the process, and eBay then contact the seller, and require them to purchase a “label” for the return postage.

 

This would then be sent to the buyer by email.

 

The buyer does have to print out the “label”, and attach it to the repacked item to be returned.

 

Then, usually, the package needs to be taken to a post office for dispatch...

 

The “label” is a tracked postage method.

 

The eBay “label” is also cheaper than the postage price from a post office...

Have now done that It actually gave me a label to print straight away without any seller input but I found a bug in the system.

The onscreen label + consignment note which appeared and asked to be printed wouldn't print on my epson printer.

Eventually I found I could save it as a pdf and print from that which  it did perfectly.

Just need to take it to the PO on Monday.

 

Bit silly really, the seller has a 99.7% rating but will now get a not recommended from me to sully it.

[melmerby]

Strange.

e-bay have just credited me a full refund for this item.

Is that normal even though I haven't posted the items back yet?

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

I think even then, a reputable seller should test it before sale or at least be prepared to test it on request.

Derails test all locos before despatch/dispatch

[melmerby]

duplicate -removed

Edited April 17, 2021 by melmerby

[Ruffnut Thorston]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Strange.

e-bay have just credited me a full refund for this item.

Is that normal even though I haven't posted the items back yet?

Maybe the system has changed since I last had to use it...

 

Possibly something to do with this “Managed Payments” now being rolled out?

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Strange.

e-bay have just credited me a full refund for this item.

Is that normal even though I haven't posted the items back yet?

Ebays big weakness is shipping, in either direction.

 

if the seller posts you the item, but for whatever reason you dont receive it, or it goes elsewhere.. your unfortunately out of luck, if it shows as delivered, Ebay wont help you, if your address is incorrect in anyway then your totally out of luck.

 

Similarly with returns, the seller has to issue a refund in a strict timeline, which is way less than any courier will refund for any loss or damage in transit.

[melmerby]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ebays big weakness is shipping, in either direction.

 

if the seller posts you the item, but for whatever reason you dont receive it, or it goes elsewhere.. your unfortunately out of luck, if it shows as delivered, Ebay wont help you, if your address is incorrect in anyway then your totally out of luck.

 

Similarly with returns, the seller has to issue a refund in a strict timeline, which is way less than any courier will refund for any loss or damage in transit.

It's odd as the refund appeared within a few hours of clicking the return button, hardly enough time for the seller to respond.

Either the seller had belatedly re-acted to my original message (last Monday) and spontaneously decided to refund (without return) or ebay have decided to credit me without proof of posting.

[GWR-fan]

Last week I purchased on eBay what I believed to be an Oxford Diecast set of five British Railways blood and custard vehicles.  The single image in the listing showed the five vehicles.  The heading listed the five vehicles plus the description stated that the "set contains the following items...".  The description then described in detail each of the five vehicles in the set with the description taken directly from the Oxford Diecast website.   The listing was misleading as while it showed an image of the five vehicles plus in the item description it stated "the set contains the following items....",  describing all five items,  in reality,  the listing was for only one of the vehicles.  "Disguised" in the listing heading was the short OR item number for the single vehicle the seller was actually listing. 

 

The image and the description were misleading (and possibly deceptive) as the listing implied that the purchaser would receive all five vehicles.   The listing showing the image of the five vehicles should have stated that the buyer would receive one vehicle only and the listing description should have deleted all the information describing the remaining four vehicles.  Perhaps the seller was simply lazy using the same listing for each of the five vehicles in the set and simply changed the OR item number in the heading.  Perhaps it was obvious to him that only one vehicle was for sale in the listing but for the average buyer when a listing image shows five vehicles and the item heading and description describe five off vehicles then I feel it is obvious that the listing is for five vehicles.

 

The seller is a major and one of the largest model/hobby stores in Australia and from reading the numerous neutral and negative feedback on their eBay account received plus the rude responses from the seller to any criticism left,  I feel that I may not receive justice for what I believe to be a deceptive and misleading listing.  As soon as I received the single item I immediately actioned a return request and now several days later am yet to receive a response.  If eBay are unwilling to assist then I will raise a dispute through PayPal.

 

What I found somewhat alarming was that I searched for a dispute resolution link on my eBay account but was unable to find it.  There used to be a direct dispute resolution tab plus in a dropbox a direct link to an item received not as described.  I did a search for "an item not as described" link but the only search return was for a request an item return to the seller.  Have eBay altered their rules so that one's only recourse now is to return an item and hope that the seller will pay return postage?  The seller has a 30 day return postage "guarantee" but reserves the right to decide if the reason for the return justifies free return postage.  I have had several dealings in the past with the store and but for one unacceptable eBay transaction several years ago,  the service from the site has been acceptable.

[The Johnster]

I have only encounterd one item from the 'Bay that was not reasonably described in 6 years of buying from that source. a BIN Bachmann BR 1950s black livery 56xx described by it's seller as in brand new in box condition (so clearly enough a used item).  The price was reasonable and I bought the loco, to discover on arrival that it had been badly resprayed and transfer unicyling lions applied, with no varnish to seal them.  Further investigation showed that the loco had been a 1920s green liveried version, with no smokebox number plate.  This is not as described!

 

The black respray had overpainted the cab windows, and the whole finish was a bit rough and ready. There was nothing fundamentally wrong with the loco beyond that, and it was a smooth and good runner.  I was not that bothered by it, as I was fully capable of rectifying it's faults and bringing it to a condition suitable for my layout myself, but a less experienced modeller might have been less comfortable with this situation.  The annoying part was that the loco would have been a reasonable price had the seller described the item truthfully and I'd have still bought it anyway!  It is now a useful member of my stud, repainted into 1949 livery with Gill Sans BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering and new cab glazing. 

 

I have made a note of the seller and will not be buying any more from him, as I consider him dishonest and untrustworthy.

 

eBay sellers are generally honest, at least within the normal parameters that our society finds acceptable from retailers, but are in the game to make money.  Some are not knowledgeable about the items they are selling and make honest mistakes in their descriptions, which I have no problem with, but there is an element on the 'Bay that exploits this, and I find them mendacious; if I suspect this, I prefer not to deal with them.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by The Johnster