Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

Tony

Thanks for this - I have decided to get Marcway to build the point complex at the entrance and use Peco for the rest, bullhead points on the station end and code 75 elsewhere.

I have no real experience of fiddle yards but have designed this so I could replace the two 15" by 4' boards at a later point if I wanted to extend the layout or swap things around.

I am not really convinced by traversers as I prefer the idea od actual shunting in the yard but no doubt it will change over time.

My next decision is the type of control. Not sure I want DCC points but DCC locos might be nice.

I will size up the bridge hole following your advice. And I did get this nice picture of ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252049833927

It gives a very nice view of the bridge - maybe you already have a copy.

regards

Andy

[Andy Keane]

ps - is this the agreed signal box plan:

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Mulgabill]

Looks good to me.

 

Good enough that I have printed out a copy for myself.

 

And re the pic you referenced before, I don't recall having seen that before. It

is certainly the clearest I have seen of that view particularly the up home/shunt

signal. Good spot there.

 

TONY

 

Thanks

TONY

[Andy Keane]

I have tidied up the picture a bit to make it clearer and added the same buildings as shown on the "official" drawing (NB this still needs further correction):

Edited July 7, 2021 by Andy Keane
corrected track plan

[Andy Keane]

 

Another thing I have found is that ground signal 13 seems to have changed locations if you look at images on the web. In one I found it is beyond the run around loop points while in a second it matches the 1958 signal plan. Anybody know what went on at that end of the station? Were the points always sprung - one image shows a manual lever on the goods shed point for example, but sprung points can have levers.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Mulgabill]

You are looking more closely than I did, so picking up detail that I haven't.

 

But I can see what you are saying, from the pic's. But where do you infer,

or know from, that they were sprung? If it's from the signal box diagram,

it could be that shows the normal position, rather than infers sprung.

 

Another small point your diagram shows signals  18 & 19 on a bracket,

where it was a single post.

 

If he doesn't look in here, you could pm Paul (5BarVT), who has been

helpful to me. He does have access to signalling diagrams, and is/was

a signal engineer.

 

Cheers

TONY

[Graham T]

Having spent some 15 years living near Helston (based at Culdrose), I'm enjoying watching this one develop.  Looks very interesting.

[Andy Keane]

On 22/06/2021 at 15:24, Mulgabill said:

You are looking more closely than I did, so picking up detail that I haven't.

 

But I can see what you are saying, from the pic's. But where do you infer,

or know from, that they were sprung? If it's from the signal box diagram,

it could be that shows the normal position, rather than infers sprung.

 

Another small point your diagram shows signals  18 & 19 on a bracket,

where it was a single post.

 

If he doesn't look in here, you could pm Paul (5BarVT), who has been

helpful to me. He does have access to signalling diagrams, and is/was

a signal engineer.

 

Cheers

TONY

I am not sure what sprung actually implies with regard to a hand lever - do all sprung points have them? - its just what is on the 1958 diagram - if Paul could help that would be great. The diagram shows that an engine running down next the central line next to the goods sheed would have to return through the shed itself if it went over the final point and nobody intervened. Maybe thats what the hand lever was for - most times one would be shunting stock into the shed, but to avoid having to drive the engine back that way the manual lever could be used to allow th engine to return back up the middle line?

Also I know about signal 18 but have not found an item in Anyrail that matches so used a bracket - maybe I should create one. I think the photos show 18 as coloured white rather than red or yellow but cannot be sure.

I now also notice that the entrance point to the goods shed had a manual lever and it does not seem to be controlled from the box as the box diagram shows 8 for the ground signal but no point lever control.

I am planning to tidy up the signal image to get a diagram etched onto perspex to which I can add lights to show the state of the track and signals. Perhaps even with buttons to change things though I also like the idea of small levers laid out in a block of 20 as per the original frame.

Correction: the diagram shows return from the goods spur up the middle line thus avoiding the shed which makes sense. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane
Correction

[Andy Keane]

20 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Having spent some 15 years living near Helston (based at Culdrose), I'm enjoying watching this one develop.  Looks very interesting.

Did you fly? I left school at eighteen to join RNEC Manadon (aka HMS Thunderer)  - happy days. Caught an early train from Paddington and the rest as they say is history!

regards

Andy

[Graham T]

Yes, I was a pinger observer.  Ended up doing 30 years all told.

[Andy Keane]

I was a Naval Constructor but bailed out after six years. They sent me to a desk in bath and I got fed up of that.

[Andy Keane]

Tony

There are two reasons I think the points were sprung - first the diagrams, but crucially photos of the box show only one set of point rodding heading that way - which appears to have been to the point on the platform line. There is no other rodding to serve the other points down there and it would be odd to work all three from one lever.

ps - there only seems to be one signal cable going that way too.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[MJI]

I find this branch fascinating. I will follow with interest.

[Andy Keane]

11 hours ago, MJI said:

I find this branch fascinating. I will follow with interest.

Great - all input very welcome.

[Andy Keane]

On 21/06/2021 at 19:54, Mulgabill said:

 

Hi Andy

 

The plan is looking good, and I like both the angle of the station, and the slight curve.

Should look good, and realistic/

 

The fiddle yard looks good, if a little complex. I started with an 8' traverser FY, but found it tended

to get filled with stock, and the length wasn't of any great benefit. It got shortened in the corner

rebuild.

 

You could, perhaps, consider replacing the dead end FY pointwork, with a loco traverser.

It would save points (cost), and give longer stabling.

 

Just a thought.

 

With regard to your question re Helston bridge. Mine has a "hole" 80mm high x 75mm wide.

This gives clearance for everything I have run through it, on a 2 -3' curve. Mostly coaches

app 240-260mm length. But I did "run" a 12 wheel GW Restaurant car through earlier. No

problems laterally, just the normal problems keeping it on the tracks.

 

cheers

TONY

Tony

Taking your words to heart I have simplified the fiddle yard - what do you think?

 

It does now use a double slip for two of the engine sidings but I think is better overall. There are now three engine sidings, two run around spurs and six roads, the longest of which will take six corridor carriages should I ever do that, all in the eight feet I have available.

regards

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[5BarVT]

On 22/06/2021 at 15:48, Andy Keane said:

if Paul could help that would be great.

You called?

I don't follow this thread (yet), but happened to drop in late last night.

Quite a few questions (and other opportunities to 'interfere') so there may be a few posts.

No longer employed as a Signal Engineer, but 'once a signal engineer, always a signal engineer'!

Paul.

[5BarVT]

On 21/06/2021 at 20:35, Andy Keane said:

ps - is this the agreed signal box plan:

 

Nearly, but not quite!

The spares are actually spaces and are 9, 10, 11.

Your signal 11 is actually 21 and the points beyond the platform are 16.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

On 22/06/2021 at 14:54, Andy Keane said:

Another thing I have found is that ground signal 13 seems to have changed locations if you look at these two images. In the first it is beyond the run around loop points while in the second it matches the 1958 signal plan. The first image is I think earlier as it shows the older style signal as far as I can make out. Anybody know what went on at that end of the station? Were the points always sprung - the first image shows a manual lever on the goods shed point for example, but sprung points can have levers.

 

From SRS records, I think that the box had a new frame in 1958.  The 1956 diagram shows a 15 lever frame 'bung full' and numbered 0-14, always indicative of an extra lever being added.  There are two signal 4, selected by point lie, another lever saving trick and the numbering is a bit mixed up, again indicating to me that alterations have been made using the levers available.  The '58 frame is numbered in a conventional 'modern' format.

With that introduction, on to the questions.

'Signal 13': the 'old' signal (I think) is more of a points indicator, hence positioned at the toes of the point.  With the new frame, signal 13 is provided as protection against the locomotive running round.  Possibly of little value in risk reduction as the train doesn't have anything to move it when the loco is detached!

Spring hand points are more of a p-way thing than signalling, but as you said later, the lever allows a facing move in the non sprung direction.  My feeling on the points from the goods shed is to reduce the risk of derailing when propelling in/out of the shed and not realising how far beyond the end of the rake is.  Interestingly the top photo shows the points lying the opposite way to their supposed sprung position, and the lower photo shows wagons standing across the point also against the supposed sprung position! 

Paul.

[5BarVT]

On 22/06/2021 at 15:48, Andy Keane said:

I think the photos show 18 as coloured white rather than red or yellow but cannot be sure.

I now also notice that the entrance point to the goods shed had a manual lever and it does not seem to be controlled from the box as the box diagram shows 8 for the ground signal but no point lever control.

I am planning to tidy up the signal image to get a diagram etched onto perspex to which I can add lights to show the state of the track and signals. Perhaps even with buttons to change things though I also like the idea of small levers laid out in a block of 20 as per the original frame.

Signal 18 (the Shunt Ahead) is white with red edges top and bottom.

Just to clarify, signal 8 is reading out of the loading dock and signal 6 reads out of the goods shed/loco loop.

Before you get your diagram etched, one or two bits need to be better presented:

On 22/06/2021 at 09:37, Andy Keane said:

I

Your shunt signals 8 and 11b (actually 21) should be at the toes of the pints they protect (i.e. further to the right) and all the shunt signals could do with a better symbol that shows which way the face (another limitation of your available symbols).

Finally, your 'block of 20 switches' would be 8, gap of three, then another 10.

Hope I've not been to picky!

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Signal 18 (the Shunt Ahead) is white with red edges top and bottom.

Just to clarify, signal 8 is reading out of the loading dock and signal 6 reads out of the goods shed/loco loop.

Before you get your diagram etched, one or two bits need to be better presented:

Your shunt signals 8 and 11b (actually 21) should be at the toes of the pints they protect (i.e. further to the right) and all the shunt signals could do with a better symbol that shows which way the face (another limitation of your available symbols).

Finally, your 'block of 20 switches' would be 8, gap of three, then another 10.

Hope I've not been to picky!

Paul.

Lots to go through but I really appreciate the help. Will digest and amend 

Many thanks 

Andy

[Mulgabill]

18 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Tony

Taking your words to heart I have simplified the fiddle yard - what do you think?

It does now use a double slip for two of the engine sidings but I think is better overall. There are now three engine sidings, two run around spurs and six roads, the longest of which will take six corridor carriages should I ever do that, all in the eight feet I have available.

regards

Andy

 

Looking good Andy.

 

I think the key things are that the FY is as flexible as possible, in use. And that it allows you

to run the trains you want, in the way you want. However it can be easy to attempt to be

too clever in what you can do in the FY, then find your options are limited in what you can

on the layout.

 

That was why I raised the query, because it's always better to have gone back and looked

again, before being committed.

 

Good to note that you have caught Paul's attention. Very useful.

 

TONY

[MJI]

I have the book on the line in BR days and it is interesting to see what was there.

 

NBL Type 2s really appeal.

 

Any idea what this is?

 

 

 

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

I have the book on the line in BR days and it is interesting to see what was there.

 

NBL Type 2s really appeal.

 

Any idea what this is?

 

 

 

The top two are the station elevations,  the rest are platform outbuildings I think. I have full CAD of some of these if needed, based on Pat English's drawings 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Andy Keane
Correction

[Andy Keane]

6 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Signal 18 (the Shunt Ahead) is white with red edges top and bottom.

Just to clarify, signal 8 is reading out of the loading dock and signal 6 reads out of the goods shed/loco loop.

Before you get your diagram etched, one or two bits need to be better presented:

Your shunt signals 8 and 11b (actually 21) should be at the toes of the pints they protect (i.e. further to the right) and all the shunt signals could do with a better symbol that shows which way the face (another limitation of your available symbols).

Finally, your 'block of 20 switches' would be 8, gap of three, then another 10.

Hope I've not been to picky!

Paul.

The reason I had a gap of two and then a gap of one was a photo of the frame that seems to show that. And I cannot quite make out in the photo the block diagram shown above the levers. Do you have access to the signalling diagram?

Also I will look for a better ground signal icon, I just used what came to hand in any rail.

Thanks 

Andy

Edited June 25, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

13 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

The reason I had a gap if two and then a gap of one was a photo of the frame that seems to show that. And I cannot quite make out in the photo the block diagram shown above the levers. Do you have access to the signalling diagram?

Also I will look for a better ground signal icon, I just used what came to hand in any rail.

Thanks 

Andy

See rosewarnejunction.me.uk/helston-signal-box

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/helston-signal-box/

Edited June 25, 2021 by Andy Keane